[Archived] Stevens Outcome

[nicko]

Do we care if a by product of the new rule which primarily, we are told, has been introduced to provide transparency in transactions in football, is that agents’ fees may also get squeezed lower and consequentially mega rich footballers, agents & clubs all may end up paying more tax? No, your average supporter will not and there is no need to repeat this. The politics of envy will rule supreme.

Nicko, do you accept that there is a perception that football has a problem in this area? There are not many people from outside football who do not think otherwise. Football has been warned on numerous occasions to clean up its act. Why don’t we see what happens?

There will be NO more transparency. Who is going to police it? The Premier League - after the Tevez and Mascherano scandal and cover-up? No. The PFA - who let any under-qualified foreigner get work permits on appeal these days? No.

This is a political exercise designed to get some money in the tax man's coffers.

See through it. Please.

The fact is that your club - and all others - are going to have to pay extra and unnecessary money to get what they and you want...good players.

As for scandals, etc. Has anything yet been proved?

Lord Stevens and his mob sniffed around for a while and have yet to provide any evidence of anything. Have a look at where they got their tip-offs and who, for that matter, make up the Quest investigative team. That really is interesting.

Panorama was a watchable TV show but only confirmed there are a few big-talking mugs around. Have the FA done anything about it? No.

[Boz]

Who will police it? From what I understand the FA have been instructed to get their house in order and if they don’t the government will do so. The FA apparently have, or are, putting a team in place to deal with regulating transfers. Forget the PFA, although it’s about time players were made to pay their own union levies too!!

There is already a template for enforcing self regulation, The Financial Services Authority (FSA), which came about after perceived frauds and mistrust in financial services companies. If the political will exists and as we enter an election period this is a typical example of a possible vote winner, then it would be quite simple to apply the same or similar procedures to football.

I almost added, that granted Stevens did not come up with a great deal of wrong doings, however was this due to other reasons?

I suggest your agent friend stops bleating and quickly gets used to the idea of filling in a 20 page form for his 5/10% fee, or otherwise with a regulator sat on his shoulder he will find it much different. It would also include a statement that indicates exactly the level of commission (profit) he’s drawn and the reason why!

[nicko]

The FA have been 'policing' the game from the word go. A fine job they have made of it too...

This would be the same FA who gave Sven a massive contract and failed to spot third-party ownership under their noses.

And check out who are some of the big noises in the FA - club chairmen. Some policemen they would make. No independence there at all.

This would also be the FA who did sweet FA about the Panorama show and left the Premier League to hire ex-plod Lord Stevens to shuffle a few papers about.

Government would not know where to start either.

The game is nowhere near as bad and bent as some would make out. Some of the practices are strange and open to question, but you could say that of any business.

Anyway, I've got a ressie game to see...

[American Rover12]

The club is going to pay the agent fee no matter what. If they do it directly, club money goes right to the agent with out having to pass through the bank account of the player. If the player legally has to pay the agent, the player is just going to work into his contract more money to cover the cost. SO the club will pay the player more so he can pay his agent.

The difference here now is, this money has gone on record as part of the money the player is being paid in his contract. He's earning more. He's now being taxed more. He's losing more from taxes and paying his agent then if the club would have paid his agent and he payed his smaller taxes. It's just an unnecessary step. Like I said earlier, if clubs regulated and kept their books properly with paying agents, there'd be no practical reason for this rule change. Due to the "scandals", however, the powers that be are using the steam form it quite nicely to re arrange something not all that bad.

If this is the case, at a much grander scale for big names, its going to cost millions more to sign them come Jan.

[nicko]

The club is going to pay the agent fee no matter what. If they do it directly, club money goes right to the agent with out having to pass through the bank account of the player. If the player legally has to pay the agent, the player is just going to work into his contract more money to cover the cost. SO the club will pay the player more so he can pay his agent.

The difference here now is, this money has gone on record as part of the money the player is being paid in his contract. He's earning more. He's now being taxed more. He's losing more from taxes and paying his agent then if the club would have paid his agent and he payed his smaller taxes. It's just an unnecessary step. Like I said earlier, if clubs regulated and kept their books properly with paying agents, there'd be no practical reason for this rule change. Due to the "scandals", however, the powers that be are using the steam form it quite nicely to re arrange something not all that bad.

If this is the case, at a much grander scale for big names, its going to cost millions more to sign them come Jan.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

A guy - or lady - who has worked it out.

Are you Dan Williams in disguise?

[bluebruce]

You're still missing the point.

Just spoke to a very good, long-standing agent - an ex-player who saw it from both sides - who is cursing the system.

He took a long-term client from one lower league club to another recently and had to fill in a 20-page form that makes little sense to anyone, take a slice of the player's salary when the club could have given him his fee separately. Instead the club bumped up the player's wages slightly to accomodate this.

The agent also has to take more from the player because he is VAT registered. Normally - if a club pays him VAT - they can claim it back.

So the club had to pay slightly more and the player, who is a mate of his because of past moves he has got him, loses out a bit of his money and the tax man gets more from the player's increased salary.

What good does that do football?

Er, not as much good as it does society.

[American Rover12]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

A guy - or lady - who has worked it out.

Are you Dan Williams in disguise?

Just a regular guy, I don't seem to have the funds yet to buy Rovers or remodel Africa.

[nicko]

Just a regular guy, I don't seem to have the funds yet to buy Rovers or remodel Africa.

Shame. You got the point though.

[Wolverine]

The idea of the Government squeezing tax money out of football while putting up a smoke screen making it appear that it's all in the name of stopping those nasty agents getting their hands on it seems more than feasible to me, Nicko.

I can't see the FA doing anything that will actually benefit the game - what is happening to football?

[nicko]

The idea of the Government squeezing tax money out of football while putting up a smoke screen making it appear that it's all in the name of stopping those nasty agents getting their hands on it seems more than feasible to me, Nicko.

I can't see the FA doing anything that will actually benefit the game - what is happening to football?

It's mad and not the game any of us fell in love with.

But it is what it is - and nothing is as black and white as people make out. There are good and bad agents as there are good and bad in all walks of life.

Money has taken over, it has probably lost its soul, but it still fires the emotions.

Just been to a ressie game in Northwich...4,000 people wanting to see Man U and Liverpool stiffs.

So it still has outrageous appeal whether we like it or not.

If it didn't exist what else would we get steamed up about?

[Wolverine]

This amuses me - a bloke at work follows FC United. He says he enjoys the grass roots feel of it.

Then he starts going on about crowd sizes and that they are looking at buying their own ground and then there could be a club shop (which there already is on thier website) and I just thought that though football is becoming frustratingly money driven and fickle at the top, it is still what all the teams below aspire to be.

[thenodrog]

You're still missing the point.

Just spoke to a very good, long-standing agent - an ex-player who saw it from both sides - who is cursing the system.

He took a long-term client from one lower league club to another recently and had to fill in a 20-page form that makes little sense to anyone, take a slice of the player's salary when the club could have given him his fee separately. Instead the club bumped up the player's wages slightly to accomodate this.

The agent also has to take more from the player because he is VAT registered. Normally - if a club pays him VAT - they can claim it back.

Must be bloody awful for him Alan. His experience is so crappy that if i was him I'd be looking to get a proper full-time job.

[American]

Haven't read the full thread, but Nicko, the basic point is that if the club pays the agent for helping the player isn't there a huge conflict of interest?

Maybe the 2 sides won't get so cozy this way.

[nicko]

Haven't read the full thread, but Nicko, the basic point is that if the club pays the agent for helping the player isn't there a huge conflict of interest?

Maybe the 2 sides won't get so cozy this way.

Not really, it's just a matter of convenience for all concerned.

The agent isn't conning the player - hopefully - by reducing his wages to increase his fee. If that was the case the player would soon get rid of his adviser. As their commission is usually based on a percentage of the player's earnings there would be no point trying to push his wages down.

There have been some shocking examples of players moving to clubs and finding that the agent's commission is almost as much as they are being paid. I think that should be exposed - and I have done in the past.

You will also often find that there are two or three agents working on the same deal, particularly if the player comes from abroad.

One agent will find the club, the other will represent the player, but they work together. In those cases two separate payments is the obvious answer.

[nicko]

Must be bloody awful for him Alan. His experience is so crappy that if i was him I'd be looking to get a proper full-time job.

If you moved a good player or two into Rovers - or anywhere else - for a living that argument would be more valid.

[thenodrog]

There have been some shocking examples of players moving to clubs and finding that the agent's commission is almost as much as they are being paid. I think that should be exposed - and I have done in the past.

Somewhat contradictory to your own school of thought. You should argue that both are making the best of their own God given talents. If an agent can do that whilst still managing to improve the players lot then good luck to him.

'Fools and their money being soon parted' is almost applicable.

[nicko]

Somewhat contradictory to your own school of thought. You should argue that both are making the best of their own God given talents. If an agent can do that whilst still managing to improve the players lot then good luck to him.

No, but some of us do not just think in black and white. All agents are rogues, all players are greedy, blah, blah.

[Dunnfc]

Allardyce could never bring legal charges to the bbc could he?

We all know of the dodgy people in these deals Pini Zahvi,Harry Redknapp,Big Sam, Hauge and the bloke who represents lucas neill (forget his name now). The agents want to earn the money from the deals not the players and this is why we always see Players signing new contracts after the slightest sniff from a rival club. It would be intresting to see what percentage the agent gets on some deals because like you Nicko iam mystefied by some of the transfers which have gone through in the last 5/6 years.

Am i right in saying bungs and takes are rife in football but we cant find out about it and some transfers taking players to certain clubs would not happen with out a bung or take?

[nicko]

Allardyce could never bring legal charges to the bbc could he?

We all know of the dodgy people in these deals Pini Zahvi,Harry Redknapp,Big Sam, Hauge and the bloke who represents lucas neill (forget his name now). The agents want to earn the money from the deals not the players and this is why we always see Players signing new contracts after the slightest sniff from a rival club. It would be intresting to see what percentage the agent gets on some deals because like you Nicko iam mystefied by some of the transfers which have gone through in the last 5/6 years.

Am i right in saying bungs and takes are rife in football but we cant find out about it and some transfers taking players to certain clubs would not happen with out a bung or take?

I don't think Allardyce ever had a case. But the programme missed a major point or two and wasted time with trivial things like the Kevin Bond trash.

As far as a deals are concerned I don't think they are all as dodgy as people now seem to think.

And you should remember one thing - the player wants an agent who will get him good money or a big move.

Nobody is forcing them.

Take Peter Harrison, Lucas Neill's agent. You might think he is bad news, but the guy got a stunning contract for the player. So he did his job. Like him or not.

Players can't hide behind agents and they shouldn't.

It is a job, a way of making money, for most of them. You can't blame them for that.

[American]

Not really, it's just a matter of convenience for all concerned.

The agent isn't conning the player - hopefully - by reducing his wages to increase his fee. If that was the case the player would soon get rid of his adviser. As their commission is usually based on a percentage of the player's earnings there would be no point trying to push his wages down.

There have been some shocking examples of players moving to clubs and finding that the agent's commission is almost as much as they are being paid. I think that should be exposed - and I have done in the past.

You will also often find that there are two or three agents working on the same deal, particularly if the player comes from abroad.

One agent will find the club, the other will represent the player, but they work together. In those cases two separate payments is the obvious answer.

In those cases a split payment is the obvious answer. Why should the club/player pay double because the agent isn't good enough to do both parts of his job?

Agents work much better here. They represent the player and fight the clubs for every penny they can get for their clients. In Europe it seems to be more important to get the player to the "right" club (for the agent's fee), even if the salary might be lower.

[Damage]

Really, the only difference is a change of market. Now it is players that will decide who are the best agents.

Oop isnt that the same market as before????????????????????

Oh well at least the clubs arent paying anymore eh lads!!

[philipl]

Stevens files handed to FIFA cos the alledged naughty boys are outside FA jurisdiction.

"Fifa can remove or suspend licences, but its record in pursuing irregularities is poor."

So that's that then unless Septic Blaster has an ego interest which means he wants to clip the wings of the Premiership or there is an agent or two on the Stevens list he'd like to get even with.

[Boz]

Just come on here to try and take my mind off 'The Phil Dowd Show' last night!

I was expecting perhaps to see a comment or two about yesterday's developments. Interesting to note that the economic crime unit of the City of London Police are looking at the money laundering aspect?

The times are a changing and football dinosaurs better get their act sorted.

[philipl]

Boz, the comments are on the Newell thread.

Compendium of press coverage. Little to add to that.

[nicko]

There are some pretty decent amateur detectives out there...so let me set you a little quiz.

Find out who the directors of a company called PopX Media are and then have a second look at the whole Quest investigation and the City of Police inquiry.

Discover the names of the people involved and see if you can find a link to the current smear campaign being carried out by one newspaper and its main reporter.

I will leave it with you...I have a game to go to.