[Archived] Nicko's Thread

[philipl]

Yes the Trustees would like to sell because they see a window of opportunity with the latest broadcast deals through which they might legally extract themselves whilst complying with the terms of the Trust.

If Williams is still hanging around, that is all he is doing because he is massively under-capitalised for taking this project on. He was in June, was in July, was in August, September and clearly still is now.

This is a bit like buying a run down Scottish Castle from the National Trust. The sale price is £1 but it comes with a legally-binding covenant of having to spend millions of your own money on your new castle and restoring it according to the terms of the National Trust.

Williams has the equivalent of the £1 but he doesn't have the ability to spend millions of his own money on his new football club according to the terms of the Walker will. His Hedge Fund pals are anything but overjoyed at the prospect of having to put £7m a year every year forever into the Rovers and only being able to extricate themselves from that obligation by selling (at a profit?) to someone else willing to take on the inflation adjusted obligation.

Jack Walker knew that Blackburn Rovers like Scottish Castles fall down if you don't keep on spending on them and loving them.

The Walker Trust has an airline, property, technology and so on and effectively operates like a small bank. Its mindset is totally unlike any other football club in the Premier League which whilst being owned by successful business people are not 100% integrated into a broad conglomerate of investment and operating interests with a philanthropic obligation tagged on.

I am simply repeating what the club has publicly said but the Trustees see that what Jack provided for Blackburn Rovers isn't enough in the crazy numbers of today's Premiership. But they cannot legally sell to anyone who is going to put in "even" less than they do. Add the club's tradeable capital to the capitalised value of the Walker obligation and the figure comes to around £100m and only after committing that sum to yourself (because you are the owner) can you enjoy the priviledge of paying over the odds for the sorts of players the Rovers are not in the market for at the moment.

I must stress, that figure is not the sale price of Blackburn Rovers but its the sort of capital you've got to be able to pledge over the next several years to the club. In other words, you have to spend at least as much as the Walker Trust has been doing on your own business interest at Ewood in order to be the shiny new owner of Blackburn Rovers.

[nicko]

If I stand outside Ewood and do this will I find him and tell him to hurry up?

I think I would join you.

[RevidgeBlue]

I have to agree with nicko on this. I don't believe there are any particularly onerous covenants in Jack's will or anywhere else regarding BRFC, that would be crazy business practice and effectively prevent anyone else ever taking over the club.

We know the Trustees are willing sellers, if they are offered the price they want for their shares, and believe they are acting generally in the best interests of the club (in accordance with their general fiduciary capacity as trustees) they will sell.

That does not equate to a new owner HAVING to inject a certain amount per annum. Phillip's figures are misleading in that the Trustees have actually "only" actually injected 3m cash per annum for the last few years. That is not legally binding under the terms of any Trust either. It is entirely discretionary, and in any one year could be made more or less and was originally intended to equate to the extra revenue from a full Ewood every single home game. Any extra investment comes from the writing off of various loans. Any new purchaser will presumably start with a clean slate so that extra amount over and above the 3m p.a. wouldn't be applicable.

The trustees will sell if they think they are moving the club forward. I believe this means they will sell if they get the price they want for their shares and believe that the purchasers also have the clout to fund in future the purchase of for example 10m + pound players if necessary.

I suspect this by definition rules out the DW interest but don't believe any prospective new owners would be bound by anything legally binding albeit there would be a hope that the paragraph above would apply.

Do those sort of conditions mean we'll be waiting a long time for new owners? We'll have to wait and see.

[thenodrog]

All the talk of is 'investment' but has anybody mentioned 'returns'?

[RevidgeBlue]

All the talk of is 'investment' but has anybody mentioned 'returns'?

It's difficult to see where you could get any sort of a financial "return" out of BRFC but if you could be successful in the Premiership and run at a roughly even keel financially the "return" in terms of prestige and kudos would be huge.

In that respect any move away from a group of venture capatalists must surely be welcome. (Although nicko may not agree)

[thenodrog]

It's difficult to see where you could get any sort of a financial "return" out of BRFC .........

....... In that respect any move away from a group of venture capatalists must surely be welcome. (Although nicko may not agree)

Exactly.

[Presty On Tour]

nicko mate, have you heard or seen this bloke play before?

apparently he is all set for well big things and goes by the name of the tish goal machine!!

the tish goal machine is on the road to stardom!!!!!

clicky clicky

http://www.bebo.com/PhotoAlbumBig.jsp?Memb...toId=5861431082

[Sparky Marky]

I can't see him wanting the Bolton job. Hibs are a much bigger club than Bolton, and Collins has got them pushing for the top in the SPL.

Course he'd jump at the chance to manage in't Prem. Hibs bigger than Notlob.?...Stretching it a little there mate...

[Silencio]

I don't think he would. It's inevitable he's going to work in the Prem so why take the Bolton job with that fat get Gartside as his boss and they are on their way down. He'll wait for a better job and keep doing well at Hibs. If Hughes was to leave Collins would be on my list.

[Dunnfc]

I don't think he would. It's inevitable he's going to work in the Prem so why take the Bolton job with that fat get Gartside as his boss and they are on their way down. He'll wait for a better job and keep doing well at Hibs. If Hughes was to leave Collins would be on my list.

Well he wouldnt be on mine.

Id like Van Gaal or Donis lol.

[b12_simon]

Forget Kia - he's not the one I am talking about.

Thank gawd for that. Were he the owner I'd be concerned about how genuine the game was any time we played against one of his stable of players.

Yes there appears to be a window in which there might be people out there willing to give Rovers a perpetual annuity of over £7m but that is only the first of the hurdles a buyer would have to overcome. Roughly speaking that requires an injection of £70m which could never be removed from Blackburn Rovers at which point parity with the Trust's obligations is achieved.

If this is true and the bottom ever fell out of football (as many of us suspects it will) then we'll be the first club to go bust.

[Fife Rover]

Course he'd jump at the chance to manage in't Prem. Hibs bigger than Notlob.?...Stretching it a little there mate...

As all people living in England, you have a very distorted and jaundiced view of Scottish football, and I freely admit I was exactly the same when I first moved up here nearly 30 years ago. However having lived up here all that time and having now got the "feel" for Scottish football at all levels, I can tell you and all the other people with strange mythological views of Scottish football that you really don't know what you are talking about.

To return to the original point at issue: How many supporters do you think Bolton have worldwide? Not too many I would guess.

How many do you think the major Scottish Clubs have worldwide? I can tell you without fear of contradiction that Celtic and Rangers have literally got millions that claim undying loyalty to the club althogh the vast majority have never seen them, or even set foot in Scotland in most cases. But the number of supporters clubs worldwide that exist and are VERY active would amaze you; it runs literally into hundreds. The same applies on a slightly reduced scale to Hibs especially, and then to Hearts and Aberdeen. The two Dundee clubs and even St, Johnstone each claim enough support worldwide to fill Ewood Park many times over.

You just don't understand how much the tradition and reputation of all the Scottish clubs means to their supporters and the huge numbers of ex-pat Scots and their families who have settled in many parts of the world, and whose loyalties and memories go back for several generations. They make almost godlike images in their minds of their traditional "home" and football clubs and never stop talking about them and mostly keeping in touch through the internet or in person.

Then when you look at the tradition and record of Hibernian FC and compare it with Bolton Wanderers FC, you would just about die laughing. What has Bolton ever won? Hibs have a record of winning everything that Scottish football has to win over a timespan of about 150 years. They are truly one of the giants of Scottish football, that has admittedly been in the doldrums for many years recently, but that does not detract from the club's long and glorious record.

Before we go any further, and anyone gets the wrong idea, I am most decidedly NOT a Hibs fan and never have been. I am merely trying to correct a very common and annoying misconception amongst English people regarding the merits of Scottish football. The only times I have ever set foot inside the Hibs ground has been to watch and support Dunfermline Athletic playing away at Hibs, plus once when our own Blackburn Rovers played there in a pre-season friendly.

[deryck guyler's spoon]

As all people living in England, you have a very distorted and jaundiced view of Scottish football, and I freely admit I was exactly the same when I first moved up here nearly 30 years ago. However having lived up here all that time and having now got the "feel" for Scottish football at all levels, I can tell you and all the other people with strange mythological views of Scottish football that you really don't know what you are talking about.

To return to the original point at issue: How many supporters do you think Bolton have worldwide? Not too many I would guess.

How many do you think the major Scottish Clubs have worldwide? I can tell you without fear of contradiction that Celtic and Rangers have literally got millions that claim undying loyalty to the club althogh the vast majority have never seen them, or even set foot in Scotland in most cases. But the number of supporters clubs worldwide that exist and are VERY active would amaze you; it runs literally into hundreds. The same applies on a slightly reduced scale to Hibs especially, and then to Hearts and Aberdeen. The two Dundee clubs and even St, Johnstone each claim enough support worldwide to fill Ewood Park many times over.

You just don't understand how much the tradition and reputation of all the Scottish clubs means to their supporters and the huge numbers of ex-pat Scots and their families who have settled in many parts of the world, and whose loyalties and memories go back for several generations. They make almost godlike images in their minds of their traditional "home" and football clubs and never stop talking about them and mostly keeping in touch through the internet or in person.

Then when you look at the tradition and record of Hibernian FC and compare it with Bolton Wanderers FC, you would just about die laughing. What has Bolton ever won? Hibs have a record of winning everything that Scottish football has to win over a timespan of about 150 years. They are truly one of the giants of Scottish football, that has admittedly been in the doldrums for many years recently, but that does not detract from the club's long and glorious record.

Before we go any further, and anyone gets the wrong idea, I am most decidedly NOT a Hibs fan and never have been. I am merely trying to correct a very common and annoying misconception amongst English people regarding the merits of Scottish football. The only times I have ever set foot inside the Hibs groung has been to watch and support Dunfermline Athletic playing away at Hibs, plus once when our own Blackburn Rovers played there in a pre-season friendly.

That's a sterling defence of Scottish Football Fife and it would be hard to dispute your ascertions regarding worldwide support. However, at the risk of sparking a whole new debate, I think the worldwide support is more attributable to mass emigration and sectarianism than football glory.

[thenodrog]

As all people living in England, you have a very distorted and jaundiced view of Scottish football, and I freely admit I was exactly the same when I first moved up here nearly 30 years ago. However having lived up here all that time and having now got the "feel" for Scottish football at all levels, I can tell you and all the other people with strange mythological views of Scottish football that you really don't know what you are talking about.

To return to the original point at issue: How many supporters do you think Bolton have worldwide? Not too many I would guess.

How many do you think the major Scottish Clubs have worldwide? I can tell you without fear of contradiction that Celtic and Rangers have literally got millions that claim undying loyalty to the club althogh the vast majority have never seen them, or even set foot in Scotland in most cases. But the number of supporters clubs worldwide that exist and are VERY active would amaze you; it runs literally into hundreds. The same applies on a slightly reduced scale to Hibs especially, and then to Hearts and Aberdeen. The two Dundee clubs and even St, Johnstone each claim enough support worldwide to fill Ewood Park many times over.

You just don't understand how much the tradition and reputation of all the Scottish clubs means to their supporters and the huge numbers of ex-pat Scots and their families who have settled in many parts of the world, and whose loyalties and memories go back for several generations. They make almost godlike images in their minds of their traditional "home" and football clubs and never stop talking about them and mostly keeping in touch through the internet or in person.

Then when you look at the tradition and record of Hibernian FC and compare it with Bolton Wanderers FC, you would just about die laughing. What has Bolton ever won? Hibs have a record of winning everything that Scottish football has to win over a timespan of about 150 years. They are truly one of the giants of Scottish football, that has admittedly been in the doldrums for many years recently, but that does not detract from the club's long and glorious record.

Before we go any further, and anyone gets the wrong idea, I am most decidedly NOT a Hibs fan and never have been. I am merely trying to correct a very common and annoying misconception amongst English people regarding the merits of Scottish football. The only times I have ever set foot inside the Hibs groung has been to watch and support Dunfermline Athletic playing away at Hibs, plus once when our own Blackburn Rovers played there in a pre-season friendly.

But do scottish clubs have an annual income from Sat TV of close on £40m? Do they hell, and thats why Collins and every other Scottish manager would jump at the BWFC job...... albeit as a stepping stone in their ambitions.

I dont have a particularly jaundiced view of scottish football Fife..... But I do have a jaundiced view of football folk!

[Silencio]

Your making it sound as though Collins is an established manager whereas he just seems like an up and coming manager. No bigger club than Bolton would take a risk on him. Gartside will work his way down from safe options such as Steve Bruce, who he can't seem to get, and will then try for characters such as Souey and Jewell (although I heard Jewell will not become the manager), and then perhaps onto the likes of Collins...

If I was Gartside I'd choose Jewell or Collins over the others, if they were available.

No I'm not. I'm saying I'd imagine Collins will know IF he carries on doing a good job at Hibs he will be offered better jobs when they come along and won't get a reputation for walking out on a club early into his first full season. Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure he played for Hibs as well? I don't think he'd leave yet, the fact he's already been linked to Premiership clubs mean he'll be linked with the next jobs that come available provided he is still doing well.

His training and preperation are supposed to excellent, he has links in Europe and has done well in the transfer market. There were fallouts with players when he got there but they were complaining that training was too hard so he bombed them out. He's one we should keep our eyes on too...

[Fife Rover]

Let me re-iterate that I am not a Hibs fan and never will be. Not that I have anything in particular against them, but they are not "my club" which is and will always be Blackburn Rovers. My original post was to correct the misconception posted by Sparky Marky that Bolton were a bigger club than Hibs. That is absolute nonsense both in terms of what each club has done, and also in the amount of support and respect enjoyed by each of the two clubs. That is all. I was not talking about or implying ANYTHING AT ALL about the relative wealth of the two clubs in today's artificial TV dominated climate, I was talking in the only terms that really matter; namely Football Achievment Terms. Hope that clears it up for those that either can't or don't want to understand what I wrote in very clear English.

Oh yes. In answer to someone elses question: Collins did play for Hibs and Celtic as well, and as I remember he was a very good attacking midfielder that scored his share of goals. I say this as a statement of fact; not because I like him; quite the opposite since he made a number of very disparaging remarks about Blackburn Rovers when he was a Fulham player.

[den]

So would you say that Hibs are a bigger club than Rovers, Fife?

[Scotty]

I can't see him wanting the Bolton job. Hibs are a much bigger club than Bolton, and Collins has got them pushing for the top in the SPL. He is a also a die-hard Scot so why would he want to move back to England for a thankless job like trying to keep the Winkers in the EPL?

What a load of ######. Bolton have approx 10,000 fans extra watching them every week, they have a better stadium, they play in a better, more prestigious league, their wage bill no doubt dwarfs anything Hibs could offer, and they have a better team. Collins would probably walk over broken glass to get the job.

[Silencio]

Oh yes. In answer to someone elses question: Collins did play for Hibs and Celtic as well, and as I remember he was a very good attacking midfielder that scored his share of goals. I say this as a statement of fact; not because I like him; quite the opposite since he made a number of very disparaging remarks about Blackburn Rovers when he was a Fulham player.

Yeah I remember him for Celtic when I was young and was sure he'd played for Hibs. Collins was a very good player for everyone he played for. Don't really remember him being snide about BRFC what did he say Fife?

[den]

How do you judge what a big club is? Surely it's a mixture of (in no particular order):

• Potential
• Fan base
• Wealth
• History
• Stature of the league they're in, or could get in

and possibly others...

Exactly - that's why I asked Fife how he judged Hibs to be bigger than Bolton.

[waggy]

i agree with fife,hibs are a massive club with worldwide support but lotnob are in the premier,collins would not touch lotnob with a barge pole.he is celtic's next manager

[USRoverME]

not sure about that, (edit: meaning potential) given the SPL's top 2, any team able to take hold of that third spot has a stranglehold really on the ability to get into Europe every year. that could be considered a much easier task than us trying to fight for 2-3 spots with 6-7 teams every year.

[Dunnfc]

Let me re-iterate that I am not a Hibs fan and never will be. Not that I have anything in particular against them, but they are not "my club" which is and will always be Blackburn Rovers. My original post was to correct the misconception posted by Sparky Marky that Bolton were a bigger club than Hibs. That is absolute nonsense both in terms of what each club has done, and also in the amount of support and respect enjoyed by each of the two clubs. That is all. I was not talking about or implying ANYTHING AT ALL about the relative wealth of the two clubs in today's artificial TV dominated climate, I was talking in the only terms that really matter; namely Football Achievment Terms. Hope that clears it up for those that either can't or don't want to understand what I wrote in very clear English.

Oh yes. In answer to someone elses question: Collins did play for Hibs and Celtic as well, and as I remember he was a very good attacking midfielder that scored his share of goals. I say this as a statement of fact; not because I like him; quite the opposite since he made a number of very disparaging remarks about Blackburn Rovers when he was a Fulham player.

Fair enough you dont support Hibs.

But Bolton are bigger than Hibs FACT! Diouf,Anelka,Nolan,Jasskalinen would sign for Hibs wouldnt they hahaha!

Hibs are crap, not in europe and play in a league of 12 who play each other 3 times. Bolton play the likes or Chelsea,Utd,Liverpool in the premiership who consist of 20 top teams and play each other twice.

Bolton have a nicer stadium than Hibs, Bolton have more money for transfers and wages than Hibs so of course Collins would jump at Bolton who unfortanatly are an established club in the prem.

The only team in Scotland is Partick Thistle ehy Nicko?

[Texan Rover]

As an American with no real traditional attachment to either league or club, I can tell you that it's absolutely ludicrous to suggest that Hibs are a bigger club than Bolton.

[FourLaneBlue]

Then when you look at the tradition and record of Hibernian FC and compare it with Bolton Wanderers FC, you would just about die laughing. What has Bolton ever won? Hibs have a record of winning everything that Scottish football has to win over a timespan of about 150 years. They are truly one of the giants of Scottish football, that has admittedly been in the doldrums for many years recently, but that does not detract from the club's long and glorious record.

I don't really have any interest in either of the two clubs but you mentioned misconceptions and yet I think you have named some yourself.

They aren't even one of the giants of Scottish football Fife...in fact it is arguable that they are only the fifth biggest club in a country of five million! Other than the Old Firm there comes Aberdeen and Hearts...both of whom don't have too dissimilar average attendances most seasons yet have had far more success in recent decades than Hibs. As have little old Dundee United for that matter.

In fact in the last half century they have only won two league cups...a competition much more devalued than even its English counterpart and doesn't even have a UEFA Cup place anymore.

In reality there are only two big clubs in Scotland...others have threatened to break into that and, in particular, Aberdeen in the eighties and Hearts a few seasons ago (before their Lithuanian owner started going bonkers and replacing George Burley with Greame Rix among other thangs) both had a good go at it but I doubt any manager of a non-Old Firm club would need to think for too long before decamping to a Premiership club.

I actually agree with a lot of your points and feel Scottish football is somewhat unfairly maligned. However you are overplaying your hand somewhat Mr Fife.

As final proof regarding why a manager would leave Hibs for a Prem club...in 2004 Bobby Williamson, the Hibs manager, left them in order to take over an English club. That club was...

The mighty Plymouth Argyle.