[Archived] Nicko's Thread

[Tris]

Do you think his success in knock-out competitions, but lack of success in the league, may be down to the fact that he isn't a very good manager? He has enough good players to compete with anyone and in Gerrard he has a player who can win a game by himself, but he isn't good enough to either put together a side for a 38 game season or continue to inspire them to perform. Anyone can win in one-offs, especially when you consider that the big teams are virtually certain to make the knock-out stages. His success in the knock-out stages have also involved several penalty shoot-out and close-run wins, hardly convincing stuff. Obviously no club would be unhappy with a champions league win, but if you're cv is supported by the flip-of-a-coin that is a penalty shoot-out, you probably need to start doing more.

Eddie - you still haven't taken on board that football is played on a football pitch. You still think everything has a natural hierarchy which stems from names on a squad sheet and figures on a balance sheet.

If anything happens in the real world which goes against your theory then you start scratching around for reasons. Greece winning the last Euros, Liverpool winning the European Cup are just two examples which had you proclaiming that the winners were not worthy.

Now Rafa's a bad manager. A cursory glance at his record suggests the opposite.

[Eddie]

Let's put those results in context:

He took charge of a good Valencia side. They had recently been in two champions league finals, won the Spanish super-cup and Barcelona and Real Madrid were far from supreme at the time. In the two seasons that he won it, it was not a Barcelona and Real Madrid double for 2nd and 3rd. That isn't taking anything away from it, but plenty of mediocre managers win things with good teams.

He then took charge of Liverpool, a side that contained several very good players, and whilst it was some ways behind the likes of Manchester United and Chelsea, was still an already established member of the "big 4"; meaning that Champions League participation is taken as a virtual certainty, not an achievement (which makes the fact that they have finished 5th during his reign a serious blot on his copybook).

He's an ok manager, he's managed good sides with a fair amount of financial backing and has always started with decent squads. Now I'm not saying he's horrible, but I judge a manager and team by their league performances, Liverpool under Benitez have been far from spectacular. To make matters worst, he doesn't even lose playing attractive football.

[revolutionrock!]

Basically hes a continental manager.

He will never win the premiership.

[1864roverite]

Fat Spanish waiter comes to mind, or indeed an extra for Pheonix nights

[revolutionrock!]

Fat Spanish waiter comes to mind, or indeed an extra for Pheonix nights

[Tris]

Now I'm not saying he's horrible, but I judge a manager and team by their league performances, Liverpool under Benitez have been far from spectacular.

Eddie - for the last two seasons Liverpool have finished above Arsenal in the league - and by 15 clear points in 2005-6.

And there's been an FA Cup win and a Champions League Final to boot - even ignoring the CL WIN the previous season!

But simply by your chosen judgement on "league performances" you must have Arsene Wenger firmly in the doghouse - because Wenger's recent history is way below that of Benitez.

[Eddie]

No I don't, for a few reasons really. Firstly, he has had success in the premiership. Secondly, his lack of success for the past couple of seasons can be easily explained by the fact that he hasn't spent anywhere near as much money as the other three, including four, and his first generation of players have all grown older and most have left. Thirdly, possibly most importantly, I can see a clear plan as to where he is taking the club and what his ideas are. He has never lacked direction and he always seem to be entirely on top of what he is doing. Results may not always go your way in football, you may not always manage to sign the players you want to and you may not have the money you need to realistically compete, but there is no reason why you shouldn't have an idea of what you are doing and what you are building. Obviously, the FA Cup and the Champions League are important, but I am far more impressed by Arsenal so far this season than I was the year they made the Champions League final, as I was by ourselves the season we finished 6th under Hughes rather than a year later where we were rather unfortunate not to make the FA Cup final and also had a decent run in the UEFA Cup.

[AggyBlue]

Many years ago little old Blackburn Rovers FC stunned the footballing world when they went straight across to sunny Spain and pulled off a fantastic loan signing in Steve Archibold, hastily followed by Ossie Ardiles. Both signings contributed,some way, to an appearance in the play offs. At that time, the club found itself in financial troubles yet still pulled off what to some was an awesome signing.

Jack Walker financed both those deals.

[American]

Eddie - for the last two seasons Liverpool have finished above Arsenal in the league - and by 15 clear points in 2005-6.

And there's been an FA Cup win and a Champions League Final to boot - even ignoring the CL WIN the previous season!

But simply by your chosen judgement on "league performances" you must have Arsene Wenger firmly in the doghouse - because Wenger's recent history is way below that of Benitez.

I'd also point out that he has spent more net than Ferguson over that period, yet United were able to win the title and Liverpool hasn't even finished 2nd. Even Houllier finished second a couple of times. Add that to the 5th place finish (Rafa Beneathus) that shouldn't have even let him into the competition the next season.

(Waiting for ice to come up from below, as I'm agreeing with Eddie and disagreeing with Tris.)

[Tris]

No I don't, for a few reasons really. Firstly, he has had success in the premiership. Secondly, his lack of success for the past couple of seasons can be easily explained by the fact that he hasn't spent anywhere near as much money as the other three, including four, and his first generation of players have all grown older and most have left. Thirdly, possibly most importantly, I can see a clear plan as to where he is taking the club and what his ideas are. He has never lacked direction and he always seem to be entirely on top of what he is doing. Results may not always go your way in football, you may not always manage to sign the players you want to and you may not have the money you need to realistically compete, but there is no reason why you shouldn't have an idea of what you are doing and what you are building. Obviously, the FA Cup and the Champions League are important, but I am far more impressed by Arsenal so far this season than I was the year they made the Champions League final, as I was by ourselves the season we finished 6th under Hughes rather than a year later where we were rather unfortunate not to make the FA Cup final and also had a decent run in the UEFA Cup.

That pile of guff is in total contradiction to what you keep posting recently about Rovers under Hughes - especially the highlighted bit. Wenger has been at Arsenal for over 10 years!!

Look what you posted in the Hughes Out thread on 6th January!!

From September to the end of December the amount of money you have doesn't matter, it's all about the squad of players and Hughes, mainly thanks to his own good work, has a good squad of players. The thing for me is that his job isn't simply to assemble a good bunch of players, he then has to get that good bunch of players to do something. Now maybe I'm making him a victim of the success he has had in the transfer market, but when you have a bunch of players that is better than most sides in the league then I expect you to do well, as I'm sure he does as well. I'm not being knee-jerk here, so people can't use that as a way to dismiss me, I may be wrong but I've been saying the same things for a while. This season has not been great, last season wasn't anything particularly special and was only really saved by the FA Cup Semi and the fact that we luckily got into Europe through the intertoto. Now people will come back to that by saying that being in an FA Cup final was special and to a certain extent I agree, but I'll always judge a manager based on the league unless he manages to bring in some silverware, which as of yet Hughes hasn't done and he won't do this year either.

[Eddie]

Yes, at the moment I don't see the direction and plan from Hughes. Much like Benitez, both have squads that should be performing better than they are at the current moment in time. You always disagree with what I say Tris, so let's just leave it at that.

[Fife Rover]

Jack Walker financed both those deals.

Really? How do you know that?

[Eddie]

Eddie - you still haven't taken on board that football is played on a football pitch. You still think everything has a natural hierarchy which stems from names on a squad sheet and figures on a balance sheet.

If anything happens in the real world which goes against your theory then you start scratching around for reasons. Greece winning the last Euros, Liverpool winning the European Cup are just two examples which had you proclaiming that the winners were not worthy.

Now Rafa's a bad manager. A cursory glance at his record suggests the opposite.

I've never said that winners weren't worthy, my statements relating two those two events have been:

1) That Greece were not and are not the best national team in Europe. That doesn't mean that they didn't deserve to win the tourmanent, winning it simply didn't make them the best.

2) That winning the Champions League but struggling in the league doesn't make you a great one, as far as I'm concerned it doesn't even make you a very good one.

Both were great achievements and I was happy for both when they did it, but that doesn't mean I have to be overawed by either.

[deftangel]

Benitez is an excellent European manager but is let down by only partially adapting to the Premiership and a tendency to over-rotate and tinker with his squad. That doesn't make him a crap manager, just not a brilliant one. Liverpool's home record this season is pretty poor when you think about it.

I'd love to think we could go in for Albeda, can't believe nobody has.

[philipl]

Really? How do you know that?

Jack said he did after buying the club.

[EwoodGlory]

Somebody leaving Celtic perhaps?

Scott Brown will be out of our price range I suppose?

[USABlue]

Scott Brown will be out of our price range I suppose?

It seems everyone except, fringe Prem and SPL players are out of our price range. Frustrating, not hard to see why Sparky woul dhave wanted to listen to Newcastle.

[EwoodGlory]

I hope we don't go for Evander Sno from Celtic then, we could probably afford him.

Would rather have Faye.

Just wondered if Nicko was hinting we could make a move for a Celtic player, if available?

[Exiled_Rover]

I hope we don't go for Evander Sno from Celtic then, we could probably afford him.

Would rather have Faye.

Just wondered if Nicko was hinting we could make a move for a Celtic player, if available?

I was thinking that. We have been linked before.

[Lathund]

Basically hes a continental manager.

He will never win the premiership.

Indeed. Arsené Wenger only won the league and FA Cup due to his extremely british style of play and management.

[Ray-Von]

Just heard on "Talksport" that Celtic are apparently interested in Mark Noble from West Ham. I think he would be an excellent signing for us.

[Rovermatt]

I'd love to think we could go in for Albeda, can't believe nobody has.

Guillem Balague on Sky was saying that Albelda's too slow for the Premiership. He'd be a very expensive gamble.

[LeftWinger]

Just heard on "Talksport" that Celtic are apparently interested in Mark Noble from West Ham. I think he would be an excellent signing for us.

How much for him then? If they value Bentley at 4.5m

[LeftWinger]

So, if Rovers Board can see fit to loosen the purse strings to a fee of around 4m, SIDWELL is the midfielder for us. He is paid for with the Savage transfer fee and 3 spots up the table. A right back - HALFORD - on loan could be the back up for that position.

I'd take Sidwell - but Halford would be a very bad idea. He can't defend.

[thenodrog]

1) That Greece were not and are not the best national team in Europe. That doesn't mean that they didn't deserve to win the tourmanent, winning it simply didn't make them the best.

Well the record books will say they were. Next you'll be agreeing with the Manc hordes that we were lucky to win the Prem in 94/95.

S'funny thing eddie but with the demise of anything worth debating on the ICBINF channelling most debate onto the football page your limitations really become apparent. I thinks its fair to say that you and Rovermatt do not travel well. Hope that doesn't offend.