[Archived] Leeds

[brfcshabba]

They have possibly put it at -15 so when they appeal it will go down to -10 like Rotherham. Some Leeds fans say they will stay up but looking at their squad and the fact they cannot spend anything I am not so sure.

[Barry]

Leeds going bust could be good for football. Maybe a few clubs currently spending money they have`nt got - WHU, Pompey, Fulham, City to name a few - may just see some sense. The idea of gambling a clubs future on instant success needs to be discouraged. And before anyone says money has been pumped into these clubs take a reality check. Jack Walker was unique, bank rolling Rovers for the pure love of the club, not for how much he could make the club worth and sell for. Even Man Utd are massively in debt because new owners transfered all the debt they incurred buying the club back onto the club. If any of the teams that have splashed the cash fail then we could see more Leeds Utds in the non too distant future. We all like to see new signings but thank goodness there is more business, as well as football, expertise in Rovers dealings than many of our Premiership rivals. With the current management at least we will still be around in a few years time, and probably still competing in the top half of the Premiership

[EwoodGlory]

Its not all bad

New signing confirmed

[Dave S]

They have possibly put it at -15 so when they appeal it will go down to -10 like Rotherham. Some Leeds fans say they will stay up but looking at their squad and the fact they cannot spend anything I am not so sure.

I was listening to this on talksport tonight.

They interviewed a Leeds journo who was convinced that they could achieve 90 points and therefore still go up!

I nearly drove off the road laughing.

On the down side my girlfriend supports Leeds.

They have sold Healy, Blake and Cresswell their main strikers.

They have hardly any defenders or midfielders of note and no senior goalkeeper.

They may stay up but won't go up.

[Tris]

Are they in enough sh** yet that they could cop another 10 point deduction??

That would be marvellous - almost poetic - justice.

F**** sake Tris! Do you mean that?

One month on, and I still mean it. In fact, 15 points is better

Leeds have got away lightly - they should be history. A sense of history is probably the only thing which has saved them.

[Paul]

One small comment on the Leeds reporting. Frequent reference is made to the point that 41 clubs have been through a CVA. Now I might have been able to name 5 or 6 but 41 is a shocking indictment of football finances and senior management. Does anyone know how far back this stretches and which clubs have been involved?

[Alan75]

Here's a start

Clubs Entering Administration or a CVA from 1992

The clubs that have been into Administration (A) or otherwise entered a CVA are given below. It includes those who were in the Football League and entered administration within a year or two after dropping into the Conference (Scarborough, Halifax Town), and amalgamates those who have had more than one CVA/Administration Order (Scarborough, Halifax Town, Swindon Town and Luton Town).

1992 Northampton

1994 Barnet Exeter Hartlepool

1995 Gillingham

1997 Bournemouth Doncaster Darlington Millwall

1998 Chester Hereford

1999 Crystal Palace, Luton, Oxford, Portsmouth

2000 Scarborough, Swindon

2001 Chesterfield, Hull, QPR

2002 Barnsley, Bradford, Bury, Carlisle, Halifax, Leicester, Lincoln, Notts County, Port Vale, Swansea, York.

2003 Huddersfield, Ipswich, Oldham, Wimbledon.

2006 Rotherham

2007 Boston, Leeds

Wrexham, Cambridge ?

[philipl]

By not entering a CVA, Leeds have avoided paying the football creditors 100p in the £1. As I understand it, the Rovers have probably lost around £500K (if it was ever there to be collected in the first place).

[den]

By not entering a CVA, Leeds have avoided paying the football creditors 100p in the £1. As I understand it, the Rovers have probably lost around £500K (if it was ever there to be collected in the first place).

The taxman will still have his say though, as I understand it?

[Neil Weaver]

The taxman will still have his say though, as I understand it?

Den, from what I heard on the radio, the current state of play is that HMRC get 11p for every pound owed and I think I heard it was something like 7 million quid. So that's what, 800k-ish? Don't think they're too happy about that, especially as football creditors stand to get paid in full (officially). So whilst Mr Bates might be planning an appeal, HMRC are thought to be mulling over the possibility of taking some sort of legal action so they recover a bit more than 800k. I suspect we'll be hearing more.

[den]

Den, from what I heard on the radio, the current state of play is that HMRC get 11p for every pound owed and I think I heard it was something like 7 million quid. So that's what, 800k-ish? Don't think they're too happy about that, especially as football creditors stand to get paid in full (officially). So whilst Mr Bates might be planning an appeal, HMRC are thought to be mulling over the possibility of taking some sort of legal action so they recover a bit more than 800k. I suspect we'll be hearing more.

Hope you're right Neil. There has to be a limit with clubs/companies ognoring their responsibilities.

EDIT: or even, ignoring their responsibilities.

[Drummer Boy]

From this seat, this whole episode is indicative of the whole state of the game: West Ham and Leeds have cheated and been allowed to get away with it for reasons that are far from sporting. If it were, for example, Newport County, they would have been unceremoniously dumped some time ago. It's enough to make you start watching Rugby League instead.

[andrew92]

what annoys me s thae the F.A ghive west ham a fine that they can pay easily because they stayed in the prem but the deduct 10 points from leeds followed by a further 15, i think trevor brooking may have had something to do with it, and aslo whats with tevez going on loan to UTD all so dodgey!!!

[revolutionrock!]

According to the weatherman winters coming early this year

Its going to be -15 in Leeds next week,

[Jordan]

Dennis Wise was in my local today watching the Charity Shied. Was with load of Leeds fans (service crew) and they gave him loads of stick. Felt a bit sorry to him TBH. God knows what would have happened if Bates was with him.

[Baz]

A CVA should only be agreed where a business cannot meet the demands on it and honour its debts - Leeds know that if they are allowed to continue playing football they will generate income through both gate receipts and other income (TV income, merchandising etc) - therefore in my opinion they are trying to use the CVA under a morally wrong approach to clear their debts at a lower rate in order that they then can use subsequent funds for re-building the football side of the club. As a tax-payer none of us should accept this as being reasonable.

The club should be forced to give up as much money as the courts can fight for each season so that the debts are repaid in full - and then and only then should they be able to start using their income to re-build their team.

To do otherwise is as i have said above immoral and doesnt give the other clubs in the league the chance to grow and develop their support in the area, due to Leeds' problems.

If they have to field a bunch of part-timers etc and pay them hardly anything - that is their problem and is only a result of their mis-management in the past.

[stuwilky]

1992 Northampton Aldershot Maidstone United Northampton Town

1994 Barnet Exeter Hartlepool

1995 Gillingham

1997 Bournemouth Doncaster Darlington Millwall

1998 Chester Hereford

1999 Crystal Palace, Luton, Oxford, Portsmouth

2000 Scarborough, Swindon

2001 Chesterfield, Hull, QPR Swansea City

2002 Barnsley, Bradford, Bury, Carlisle, Halifax, Leicester, Lincoln, Notts County, Port Vale, Swansea, York, Swindon

2003 Huddersfield, Ipswich, Oldham, Wimbledon, Luton, Darlington

2004 Wrexham, Bradford

2005 Cambridge United

2006 Rotherham

2007 Boston, Leeds

Red and strikethrough's courtesy of Deloitte and Touche's guide to football finances 2007. "Member clubs of the FL that have undergone insolvency proceedings, 1992 - May 2007"

[Finch]

Who'd be a Leeds fan these days. It seems life just gets worse and worse for them.

Remember, it could be us. Theoretically it could happen to anyone.

[brfc fan]

I try not to feel sorry for them because they don't need pity, they need help. I think all the fans who abandoned them are wrong to do so and should somehow get together and try and save the club.

I can see a light at the end of this pitch black tunnel because it's only two divisions after all but they must sort it out as soon as possible.

[philipl]

More details- the first fan comment rubs it in rather!

[Hasta]

Should the 15 point deduction stand (which I don't think it will after appeal) then this season is going to be monsterously nasty for Leeds. A 15 point defecit is incredibly difficult to turn round, and should they fail then they'd be receiving even less money in League 2.

In the past few years the only clubs of similar stature to drop this low have been Nottingham Forest and Shefield Wedneday. It's fair to say that both of them were in nowhere near as bad a shape as Leeds are now.

Had they had a 15 point deduction:-

In 2003 Sheff Weds would have gone down by 11 points in 23rd place.

In 2004 Sheff Weds would have stayed up by only 6 points despite actually finishing 3rd and getting promoted

In 2006 Notts Forest would have stopped up by only 4 points (they finished 7th)

Basically Leeds are going to have to be in and around the play off spots just to survive. THey need to do this with a squad thats paper-thin, players struggling to get paid, guaranteed more off-field trouble (I would imagine in both contexts) and a set of fans that certainly don't seem to be 'marching on together' with the club.

I bet the likes of Huddersfield, Doncaster and Hartlepool are relishing the chance to get stuck into their new 'local derbies'.

[philipl]

Just had a look at the Leeds fixture list.

8 out of the first 10 games are against clubs finishing 4th to 10th in their new division last season or got relegated with them from the CCC.

They are going to be doing well to get to 0 points after 10 matches with those fixtures and a -15 start (or even -10 points).

And just to rub it in- their Christmas games are a reverse of early home games: Luton and Southend- both AWAY!

No Father Christmas at the turnstiles then Ken?

[brfc fan]

More details- the first fan comment rubs it in rather!

I like the 3rd one!

[philipl]

The Revenue are going ahead with the Court case against KPMG and Ken

Chesh commented that a settlement would be delayed whilst KPMG worked to get the threat against themselves removed. I rather suspect the immediate reaction by the League to KPMG not going back into CVA of awarding the -15 Golden Share limited their wriggle scope deliberately. Mawhinney had already criticised their administration.

[thenodrog]

'wriggle scope'? Thats one that I haven't heard before.