[Archived] Thick Gits

[stuwilky]

It was a general you...and I did.

You believe that a level 6 in each subject, of the 6, should be equivalent to an A at A Level?

So, an average student with 4's, should be considered on the grounds of 6 C grades?

[Eddie]

C is average so it seems logical that a 4 would be considered average as well.

[stuwilky]

C is average so it seems logical that a 4 would be considered average as well.

What is the study hours requirement for each subject in the IB? Whilst I agree with Dave's comments on it being much more rounded, this I put down to the breadth of the curriculum from talking to the students I have who have done it.

Its an interesting comparison to attempt to make, its certainly interesting that each individual subject pass is worth the equivalent to a "C" grade at A Level in terms of UCAS points.

[colin]

Prizes for all - what is the point of exams if tehy don't separate the less-able from the able?

There are hardly any failures, that is bloody ridiculous.

I feel sorry for them.

Whoooh there Bryan, the system looks at the exams the students have taken and grades them if they deserve to get an "A" or a "B" or whatever. You seem to be suggesting that if 100 students sit exams then a percent are doomed to failure no matter how well they have done just because others have done better & the allocation for "A" or "B" is full up. That's not right.

If all 100 deserve to pass at "A" grade then so be it.

I know this subject has come up every year for ages. Has anyone any conclusive proof that these exams are actually getting easier? I'd like to see a bunch of "exams are getting easier" promoters sit (say) the A levels from 2007 and 1997 without them knowing which was which and see how they get on.

[blue phil]

For those who like to spend their time slagging of anyone who achieves anything and being generally negative consider this. The A level results this year represent the equivalent of one child in 30 achieving an A grade. So you put your child into a primary class of 30, 12 years later only one of those children will finish school / college with the grades which people criticise so heavily even though those grades actually represent real achievement for the individual.

That's just spin ....and pretty poor spin that wouldn't get an D never mind an A

We should consider where all these fledgling intellectuals are coming from . The answer is that they are concentrated in schools from good areas and populated by kids from good families . Out of this type of school a very , very hefty percentage of pupils will get grade A's .

As for thousands of schools in the cities they'd probably be lucky if you got a grade A between them .

It has to be said that for all the money New Labour have thrown at schools the gap between "good" and "failing" schools is wider than ever .

As always employers know the real score (maybe one or two on here would care to comment) . Pressure is building on the politicians to come up with not only grade A + , but grade A ++ in future exams . That say it all to me ; we have a situation were exams have been devalued to such an extent that nobody know how bright a kid is compared to his peers .

[Eddie]

What is the study hours requirement for each subject in the IB? Whilst I agree with Dave's comments on it being much more rounded, this I put down to the breadth of the curriculum from talking to the students I have who have done it.

Its an interesting comparison to attempt to make, its certainly interesting that each individual subject pass is worth the equivalent to a "C" grade at A Level in terms of UCAS points.

I have friends who have sat AP exams, A levels, AS, GCSE, IB and plain old SAT's and I can certainly say that the IB requires the most work. I've certainly yet to see exams that have larger curriculums.

Whoooh there Bryan, the system looks at the exams the students have taken and grades them if they deserve to get an "A" or a "B" or whatever. You seem to be suggesting that if 100 students sit exams then a percent are doomed to failure no matter how well they have done just because others have done better & the allocation for "A" or "B" is full up. That's not right.

If all 100 deserve to pass at "A" grade then so be it.

I know this subject has come up every year for ages. Has anyone any conclusive proof that these exams are actually getting easier? I'd like to see a bunch of "exams are getting easier" promoters sit (say) the A levels from 2007 and 1997 without them knowing which was which and see how they get on.

I had a teacher who actually used a real curve; meaning that the majority of the students had to get C's, the right percentage B's and D's and the correct number F's and A's, regardless of what your actual percentage grade was. This was quite annoying as it wasn't in line with the rest of the school and I was quite old at the time (10th grade, so year 11), but if it was taken up everywhere I actually think it would be a good idea. It was sometimes annoying to get an 82 and end up with a C-, but it means that you can never argue that the easy exam resulted in high grades for everyone and you were certainly pleased to get a high grade.

[colin]

We should consider where all these fledgling intellectuals are coming from . The answer is that they are concentrated in schools from good areas and populated by kids from good families . Out of this type of school a very , very hefty percentage of pupils will get grade A's .

As for thousands of schools in the cities they'd probably be lucky if you got a grade A between them .

Phil, have you got anything to back up this?

It was sometimes annoying to get an 82 and end up with a C-, but it means that you can never argue that the easy exam resulted in high grades for everyone and you were certainly pleased to get a high grade.

Sorry Eddie, not annoying, just wrong. It means you are not being judged on your own exam results but on everyone elses. If you were born 12 months later and happened to be in a less talented year group then your 82 would result in an A. Where's the fairness in that? The corollory applies that if you happen to be a sandwich short of a picnic & the rest of the year happen to be two sandwiches short, you end up with an A.

[broadsword]

What is the probability that each successive year is more intelligent than the last? Because if exams aren't getting easier then each year is brighter than the last, does anyone honestly believe this?

They are introducing A* grades from next year at A Level, a tacit admission that A levels do not discriminate sufficiently.

Having exams that more or less everyone passes is ridiculous.

[stuwilky]

I have friends who have sat AP exams, A levels, AS, GCSE, IB and plain old SAT's and I can certainly say that the IB requires the most work. I've certainly yet to see exams that have larger curriculums.

Eddie, that doesnt answer the question I asked.

[Hannah]

As a teacher the pressure is on for me year on year to increase exam results. There is pressure from my line manager, the local authority, OFSTED and HMI. I am set targets which are related to children's achievements in English, Maths and Science. I have to get 80% of children to a certain level by Christmas, Easter and July. I teach the children in my class the syllabus that enables them to achieve the highest possible level. I guess that it is a similar game with ALevels. Teachers are having to be more smart in what they are teaching and playing the game.

In my school recently OFSTED have pitched up and told us based entirely on results that the leadership and management, teaching and learning and curriculum in some areas of the school is unsatisfactory. That puts the pressure even higher to churn out the results. A similar thing has happened to the surrounding secondary schools.

The pressure on teachers to get the children to achieve is phenomenal - and im not complaining cos i love it but is this not a reason why results continually improving??

BTW the results I am pressured to achieve are with children of 6 years old!!!!

[Paul]

QUOTE(blue phil @ Aug 17 2007, 20:45 )

We should consider where all these fledgling intellectuals are coming from . The answer is that they are concentrated in schools from good areas and populated by kids from good families . Out of this type of school a very , very hefty percentage of pupils will get grade A's .

As for thousands of schools in the cities they'd probably be lucky if you got a grade A between them .

Phil, have you got anything to back up this?

colin I've recently heard convincing arguements to back this view and the opposite one as well. It really depends on how one choses to view the issue. The catchment area is important as it influences the schools available to an individual. However this influence is dwarfed by what phil describes as "good families" - I hope he isn't being disparaging with the term. I know young people with a wide range of abilities, who have attended local schools of varying repute. I don't know any young person who has been held back through attending a perceived poorer school. The influence of the family being far greater than that of the school, and so it should be.

I have the feeling the "A levels are getting easier" arguement always arises from those who have other political points to score. Young people I know worked very hard to achieve A grades, other young people I know who perhaps got Cs and Ds didn't work hard enough. It's simple and anyone whose children have been through A levels will have experienced this. To suggest the A grades are a result of dumbing down is insulting to to those who achieve them.

Perhaps what is of more concern, and where I would agree there is a problem, is with degrees. I don't know if these are easier or not but the sheer numbers attending university create problems in the labour market. I know a health care professional who started as a pharmacy assistant straight out of school, even as a holiday job, more than 30 years ago. Recently I saw a position for a pharmacy assistant advertised at £13000, minimum qualification degree level education. Now this is plain bloody stupid, having two serious influences, young people question the value of university and a great wedge of employable youngsters are kept out of jobs they might fulfill very competently.

phil asked for an employers view. Mine is this. There is too much emphasis on "classroom" education and a real lack of vocational or practical education. TBH honest I don't mind if people have A levels or degrees, I want folk who can do the job, have some experience or are willing to learn. I'll give two examples:

* A young lady applied for an office admin job with us recently. as a young, inexperienced person her CV contained the right qualifications. Her typed application and CV contained 29 spelling or grammatical errors. This told me what I needed to know about the individual and the standard of work she would be produce.

* A company I'm dealing with at the moment employ a lot of young people. For several months we've experienced real communication problems with the company failing to respond or follow up on issues. If we had a choice we would have dumped them by now. I drove to their offices to complain! I met a lady in her late 20s / early 30s who readily admitted this was a major problem and she had recently joined the company to resolve these issues, especially those surrounding the younger staff not appreciating the need to follow through their promises etc.

As an employer I can teach the job, that's easy. What is difficult, even impossible, is to teach a real desire to work, show initiative, be polite and respectful, make reasoned decisions etc. These are characteristics employers value and will stand one in good stead in any chosen career. I'm sorry to say these characteristics are often lacking in a significant section of the young people who look for work with us.

[thenodrog]

As an employer I can teach the job, that's easy. What is difficult, even impossible, is to teach a real desire to work, show initiative, be polite and respectful, make reasoned decisions etc. These are characteristics employers value and will stand one in good stead in any chosen career. I'm sorry to say these characteristics are often lacking in a significant section of young people.

Good post Paul..... especially now that I have amended the last sentence for you. Unfortunately the sloppy, careless attitude to school and schoolwork etc has now pervaded a large section of society.

There is a way around your employment dilemma btw..... simply advertise as usual but ignore all the youngsters and employ the over 45's. We don't employ many people but it's what we've inentionally done and I think it's fair to say we would never do anything else. Oh and all that maternity leave rubbish simply doesn't exist. As far as workm is concerned MINLTF are definitely the way forward imo.

btw last time we advertised for a warehouseman (storeman and sweeper up and a min wage position) we were inundated with replies. As you say all the best presented cv's with no grammatical errors were from older people. I even had to knock back an ex primary school head who had applied unsuccessfully for many positions before applying for ours. I felt sorry for him when he admitted how desperate and disollusioned he was with his own situation. The poor bloke could simply not understand nor grasp what life is about in the real world.

The employment situation at the moment is akin to throwing a fine old Mercedes on the scrapheap and replacing it with a brand new Trabant with a nice paint job.

[Beta Ray Bill]

As someone above mentions, it's a conversation that crops up every year and there is thruth in both the notion the exams are getting easier and that those who work hard get rewarded.

There is absolutely no way every single year kids are more intelligent than those of 12 months earlier. God help you if you're the first child of three - even if you're only 2 years older than your 2nd sister, you are bound to be less intelligent! (OK that is a very mirco example but it's effectively what the results at a macro level are saying.) However, there is wtill a need to try to distinguish between the genuinely bright kids and those who have experienced grade-drag. That's why A* was introduced.

The real problem though lies with what message the grades send to both the kids and employers. The former can believe they are more mentally advanced than they actually are, and the latter become distrustful or confused as to the quality of candidates. As Paul says even more acute when you look at degrees. We are now in a situation where educational qualifications are not a useful filter for recruitment. Is a first from the University of Huddersfield in Theatre Studies obtained in 2007 really a better degree than a 2:ii in Biochemistry from Imperial College in 1990?

It's even more perverse when you think of what can happen in the same year. Is someone who obtains a first in Economics at the University of Central Lancashire more academic than some one who gets a 2:ii in Economics at LSE?

I've no disrespect for the former Polys - I did an additional professional qualification at one of those mentioned above and I was more than happy with the establishment, teaching etc - however, they generally do not cater for the "greatest academic minds of our time". The problem is, I suspect a great many employers don't realise this.

On a side note, I was horrified last week when someone in my department came over to my desk and asked what was 1/5th of a particular figure. I really thought he was joking but he genuinely did not know how to work it out. This is some with A-levels (admittedly not in maths) but he couldn't even work out how to do it with a calculator! I then gave him a 5 minute lesson in working out fractions from first principles and I might as well been talking to a Burnley fan in Martian. He left college less than 6 years ago.

[thenodrog]

On a side note, I was horrified last week when someone in my department came over to my desk and asked what was 1/5th of a particular figure. I really thought he was joking but he genuinely did not know how to work it out. This is some with A-levels (admittedly not in maths) but he couldn't even work out how to do it with a calculator! I then gave him a 5 minute lesson in working out fractions from first principles and I might as well been talking to a Burnley fan in Martian. He left college less than 6 years ago.

Get used to it Beta. Sad to say but I was the one who taught my kids their X tables! When I tackled 'Miss' about this at the parents evening she said there was too much on the curriculum to waste time learning tables! I ended up drumming something into them at 9 and 10 years old that I had learnt at age 7/8.

btw as far as anybody under 40 is concerned never mind fractions and %ages .... Long division is the best and funniest way to take the p1ss!

[Beta Ray Bill]

btw as far as anybody under 40 is concerned never mind fractions and %ages .... Long division is the best and funniest way to take the p1ss!

Could you say 38, because I'm fine with long division.

[Eddie]

What is the study hours requirement for each subject in the IB? Whilst I agree with Dave's comments on it being much more rounded, this I put down to the breadth of the curriculum from talking to the students I have who have done it.

There is no study hours requirement . You do however much or little you think you need to do to get the grade you want, how much people will need to do will vary. You have some papers and things which you do through the school year, usually one or two per class that will then be assessed as part of your grade and that will take quite a lot of work. I honestly couldn't say that you have to do x amount of hours and if you do that you'll be fine and there's no one there specifically looking at the number of hours you are putting in, the only way to tell is to look at the grades you are getting in class and then eventually at your IB grades. It would be difficult for me to say how many hours I did, but I can safely say that I had a minimum of three hours of work after school each day for the final two years.

[blue phil]

Phil, have you got anything to back up this?

Yes , Colin ; it's called common sense - allied with the ability to see through the spin of government ministers who claim that year on year kids are getting ever more intellectual .

You don't need to be a brain surgeon nor be armed with reams of statistics . Just a grade A O-level in common sense is enough ......

[blue phil]

I have the feeling the "A levels are getting easier" arguement always arises from those who have other political points to score. Young people I know worked very hard to achieve A grades, other young people I know who perhaps got Cs and Ds didn't work hard enough. It's simple and anyone whose children have been through A levels will have experienced this. To suggest the A grades are a result of dumbing down is insulting to to those who achieve them.

It's not insulting at all . Nobody is blaming the kids - all they can do is pass the exams put in front of them . But producing kids with grade A's who have no knowledge of history or English Literature or who can't add up without a calculater for example isn't doing anyone any favours in the long run I'd suggest .

Of course it is political , though - both from those concerned at declining standards at schools ....and those who feel obliged to support the government's stance that all is well at our schools .

As you often say , Paul ; the truth is somewhere in the middle . In other words some of our schools are fine but all too many are producing kids who can barely read and write .

It all comes down to luck with the catchment area I suppose - plus the fact that those with money buy into an area with good schools and those without get stuck in a downward spiral . Even those from "good" families can get stuck in the spiral - just look at the rise of the gang culture in the inner cities !

[stuwilky]

btw as far as anybody under 40 is concerned never mind fractions and %ages .... Long division is the best and funniest way to take the p1ss!

Strangely I am under 40 (by a decade or more) and understand and can apply all of those things.

Not that your stereotypes are ever incorrect Gord

[grizfoot]

I just completed my AS Levels this year and we did lots of practise papers, ones from as far back as 1998. The papers seemed pretty consistant in terms of difficult in my opinion. Obvoiusly sylabusses change as new knowledge is added and updated, ect. so it would be quite hard to compare whether difficultness of the exams as decreased over the years.

[blue phil]

I remember one of the newspapers recently printing an 11+ exam (or something similar) from a century or so ago .

I doubt if any of the current crop of A graders could pass it .....I know I couldn't handle most of it

[thenodrog]

I remember one of the newspapers recently printing an 11+ exam (or something similar) from a century or so ago .

Channel 4's first sreies of 'That'll teach em' provided a bit of classic TV. The kids who had just completed their GCSE's spent a summer undergoing old style schooling as their parents would have undergone in the late 50's. Uniforms, school dinners where everything was boiled, teachers in gowns etc.

Anyway after about a month at school they were given an old fashioned arithmatic test, most failed miserably with the majority getting significantly less than the 50% pass rate. But they were all absolutely gobsmacked when the teacher scathingly informed them that the test was actually a standard 11 Plus arithmatic test from 1958.

[Neil Weaver]

arithmatic

arithmatic

That'd be arithmetic would it Gord? Some people's spelling these days..........

[Paul]

edit

[thenodrog]

That'd be arithmetic would it Gord? Some people's spelling these days..........

Indeed Neil..... I'd have received an autometic rap over the knuckles with a ruler for that in my day.