[Archived] Other Premier League Happenings

[roversmum]

Yes, and I'm actually going to this match

[Wild Irish Rover]

Of course it matters whether the ball was touched first or not, otherwise it becomes a none contact sport.

Obviously you can't do something like go for a header then follow through with a headbutt, but for something like a slide tackle it's fine to take the player down cleanly as long as you take the ball first. If it doesn't matter whether or not the ball was touched then every single slide tackle becomes a foul!

The football community is pretty much united in saying the decision was wrong, including even Wenger. Obviously you're the one that doesn't understand it all.

Don't talk carp. The whole point is that the refere has to make a judgement about the question of 'intent' in each and every situation, more often than not in a split second. Having been a referee for the past 23 years myself, I do have some experience of having to make similar assessments, but am constantly amazed by players who cannot distinguish between a fair tackle and one which infringes the laws of the game.

And NO it is NOT fine to take a player down cleanly - if your intent is to take the player down, then that is a foul. End of.

[Grabbi Graeme]

SSN reporting that Man Utd have written to UEFA to ask if Darren Fletchers red card can be overturned on compasionate ground, what??.

Do Utd think that the rules dont apply to them, there is no appeal for a card in Uefa tournaments unless it's mistaken identity, only Utd would have the cheek to try and and bend the rules to suit them.

[LeChuck]

And NO it is NOT fine to take a player down cleanly - if your intent is to take the player down, then that is a foul. End of.

That's rubbish. How many perfectly legal slide tackles do we see in every match where the defending player takes both the ball and the man? Defenders are even taught to make sure they take everything when going in for a slide tackle.

If the player is going in to hurt the attacker then fair enough, whether the ball was touched or not wouldn't matter, but this really wasn't the case Fletcher.

[Hughesy]

SSN reporting that Man Utd have written to UEFA to ask if Darren Fletchers red card can be overturned on compasionate ground, what??.

Do Utd think that the rules dont apply to them, there is no appeal for a card in Uefa tournaments unless it's mistaken identity, only Utd would have the cheek to try and and bend the rules to suit them.

Cant blame them for trying to be honest - it is unfair on Fletcher, end of. Its UEFA's rules that are crap.

[LeChuck]

Cant blame them for trying to be honest - it is unfair on Fletcher, end of. Its UEFA's rules that are crap.

UEFA showed that they're prepared to bend the rules on 'compassionate' grounds a few years back when they allowed Liverpool to enter the Champion's League the year after they won it, despite finishing 5th in the league.

From everything UEFA are saying though it sounds like unless the referee requests the red card be overturned in his match report that there's little they can do about it.

[Hasta]

Fletchers was a great tackle and never a foul.

However, even if the referee does see it as a foul because he's took the man after, how can it be a red card?

It is no longer a goal scoring position because Flecher has already knocked the ball away for a corner.

[RevidgeBlue]

How many goals have they scored this season Modes - one hundred and forty something?

Watching last night's game Den, i was reminded of going to watch Real Madrid against Getafe in the Bernabau in February last year.

Madrid won the title last season but were awful on the night and lost 1-0.

What struck me however was that it was as near as dammit a non contact game. There was barely a tackle made all night and all the players stood two yards off each other. The pace was also slower than in the Premiership as you would expect.

Watching Messi, Etto etc. flounder against Chelsea's defence last night, I could only assume they must not play a lot of what I would call "proper" defences to score one hundred goals.

[Hughesy]

Yeah I thought that - id love to see Messi in the premier league because I dont think he would even come close to being the best player in the league if he had to play the defences in our league.

English teams have also learnt how to play in Europe too. They know how to defend really well and they can all score goals against anyone.

[den]

Yeah I thought that - id love to see Messi in the premier league because I dont think he would even come close to being the best player in the league if he had to play the defences in our league.

Of course he would Hughesy. He's a wonderfully talented footballer. There are some awful defences in our league as well you know.

[vizcaya]

Bad display by mr. Øvrebø? Yes. Does the OTT reactions from certain Chelsea player need to be penalised? Yup. Is apparent "death threats" necessary? Don't think so. Unless you take Bob Paisley's (or was it Bill Shankly) words literally...(Football's not a matter of life and death, it's more important than that).

I know football can be a very passionate affair, and that some people are more passionate (bordering on lunacy) than others. But still....

[DE.]

Not sure how I'll feel if Fletcher's card is overturned... on the one hand, I'd be pleased because the lad deserves to play in the final and the ref should not ruin it for him, on the other... what's the point of having rules if they're just going to be overturned when challenged by Man utd or Liverpool?

Saying that, the rules are ridiculous in the first place, so maybe challenging them is a good thing.

[rover6]

Of course he would Hughesy. He's a wonderfully talented footballer. There are some awful defences in our league as well you know.

Messi would make mince of many of the Premier League's "defences".

If the lardy and directionless Anelka of today can score so many goals in the Prem, I think it tells you quite a bit about the standard of defending.

[Eddie]

Of course he would Hughesy. He's a wonderfully talented footballer. There are some awful defences in our league as well you know.

I think he'd be less effective than he is in Spain, but he'd still be a great player.

[Grabbi Graeme]

I'm aware that Fletcher was unlucky in getting sent off, however the teams taking part in the champions league know the rules that apply to the tournament.

If Fletcher did mange to get the red card overturned and then went on to play in the final and even score the wining goal then how would Barcelona feel about that.

The rules are not right but until they are chnged then teams after keep to them, I would imagine that if the game Fletcher was missing was a group or quarter final game then there wouldn't be all this fuss.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

I think he'd be less effective than he is in Spain, but he'd still be a great player.

That’s rubbish. Watch his performance against Utd at Old Trafford… they doubled/trebleb up on him & still couldn’t get anywhere near him. He is currently the best player in the world- fact. Barcelona would rip all the teams outside the Premierships top 4 to shreds

If Chelsea & Utd are so superior to Barcelona- then why do adopt the same spoiling tactics that the bottom 6 of the premiership implement when they play away to Utd, etc? Utd employed the exact same tactics home & away to Barcelona. Surely as a superior side- they would not have to result to the 'dogs of war' approach.

For those boasting about how much more competitive/ better quality the premiership compared to La Liga- I say this, the top 4 may be better than virtually all the other European leagues top teams; outside of that, we have mediocrity & absolute dross. Hence that is the reason why we have the same 4 sides dominating (who between them have created a virtual oligopoly).

The premiership imo is the least competitive of all the top European leagues.

[Eddie]

The same sides dominate in most leagues. United and Chelsea have adopted those tactics against Barcelona because they work. I'm sure that United would stand a good chance in an open free flowing game against Barcelona, but they are better defensively than Barcelona are and if they simply contain them they increase their chances of winning. United never play in the same style as Barcelona, even against the weakest sides in the premiership. Barcelona wouldn't fair any better in the premiership than the top four already do, although they would have to change one or two members of their sides. Messi would still be a fantastic player, but in a more physical league and with less time on the ball he wouldn't be able to do quite the same things as he does in Spain, certainly not on such a consistent basis.

The bottom sides in La Liga, Serie A or any other league in the world are no better than the premiership. In La Liga they tend to play football that is more pleasing to the eye, but that is just because their players are given more time and space, which also then also then allows sides slightly more luxury when picking their team. La Liga is a fantastic league, as is the premiership. They both offer something slightly different, but are very enjoyable to watch. Personally I prefer the premiership because I enjoy the more physical and fast paced game, but I can see why some would prefer watching La Liga.

[Hughesy]

Messi would not be as consistent in this league as what Ronaldo is - no way in this world. I hope someone English signs him to prove to you wrong.

Spain is a 2 team league - Barca & Madrid

Italy is a 3 team league - Milan, Inter & Juve

Germany/ France/ Holland - is just crap.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

The same sides dominate in most leagues.

In terms of winning the league I agree. However; there is a far-wider range of teams that have qualified for the Champions league in the past 5/6/7 years from the Seria A & La liga. I think the last teams outside the top 4 to play in Champs league proper from england was either the Barcodes or Leeds.

Messi would not be as consistent in this league as what Ronaldo is - no way in this world. I hope someone English signs him to prove to you wrong.

Spain is a 2 team league - Barca & Madrid

Italy is a 3 team league - Milan, Inter & Juve

Are you basing the above on this season alone or the last five years?

[DE.]

Worth noting if Fletcher's card is overturned than surely Barca will demand Abidal's is as well?

[Billy Castell]

West Ham owner £300m in debt.

How would that affect the Whammers? A quick sale perhaps? Or a decline akin to Southampton.

[Eddie]

In terms of winning the league I agree. However; there is a far-wider range of teams that have qualified for the Champions league in the past 5/6/7 years from the Seria A & La liga. I think the last teams outside the top 4 to play in Champs league proper from england was either the Barcodes or Leeds.

Not really, still remains mostly the same sides. There's slightly more variation, but not by much. In Spain and Italy shift in power has had quite a bit to do with financial trouble at some of the larger teams.

Since the 2000/01 season the stats for the various leagues look like this:

Premier League

3 winners

7 different sides in the top 4

La Liga

3 winners

12 different sides in the top 4

Serie A

4 winners

8 different sides in the top 4 (although that would be 7 without the 05-06 points deductions).

Serie A has more "big" teams than England and the only real surprise in the top 4 was Chievo and that was during the 05-06 season. Udinese and Fiorentina then break up the pack slightly, but they are hardly small teams.

In the Premier League things have obviously changed in the past few years. Since Abramovich took charge of Chelsea they have become a regular fixture and the Leeds collapse saw them drop out. This really though shows exactly why there is greater change in Spain where the financial situation of the bigger clubs is more subject to change than in England (with the exception being Real Madrid and Barcelona). Everton have been the only really surprise.

La Liga has changed with the finances of the various clubs. Deportivo were originally ever-present, but haven't featured since 03-04. In Spain there have only been two real surpsies: Osasuna, Real Sociedad and Real Betis, all the rest are just the large sides in Spain who's fortunes vary slightly from year to year.

This shows that La Liga is a bit more open when it comes to finishing in the top 4, but it is generally a case of the "usual suspects", much as it is everywhere in Europe. Fact is that with success comes money and that generally leads to more success. A few clubs in England and Spain have overspent, which is why they have been at the top and then fallen from it, but generally teams hold their positions pretty well.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Not really, still remains mostly the same sides. There's slightly more variation, but not by much. In Spain and Italy shift in power has had quite a bit to do with financial trouble at some of the larger teams.

Since the 2000/01 season the stats for the various leagues look like this:

Premier League

3 winners

7 different sides in the top 4

La Liga

3 winners

12 different sides in the top 4

Serie A

4 winners

8 different sides in the top 4 (although that would be 7 without the 05-06 points deductions).

Serie A has more "big" teams than England and the only real surprise in the top 4 was Chievo and that was during the 05-06 season. Udinese and Fiorentina then break up the pack slightly, but they are hardly small teams.

In the Premier League things have obviously changed in the past few years. Since Abramovich took charge of Chelsea they have become a regular fixture and the Leeds collapse saw them drop out. This really though shows exactly why there is greater change in Spain where the financial situation of the bigger clubs is more subject to change than in England (with the exception being Real Madrid and Barcelona). Everton have been the only really surprise.

La Liga has changed with the finances of the various clubs. Deportivo were originally ever-present, but haven't featured since 03-04. In Spain there have only been two real surpsies: Osasuna, Real Sociedad and Real Betis, all the rest are just the large sides in Spain who's fortunes vary slightly from year to year.

This shows that La Liga is a bit more open when it comes to finishing in the top 4, but it is generally a case of the "usual suspects", much as it is everywhere in Europe. Fact is that with success comes money and that generally leads to more success. A few clubs in England and Spain have overspent, which is why they have been at the top and then fallen from it, but generally teams hold their positions pretty well.

Thanks for confirming my point Eddie

Just as aside: Valencia reached two Champs legue finals, Won La Liga twice & the Uefa cup-

[Eddie]

Point being?

All the top leagues are predictable. Who will win the league varies between 2-4 teams, who will finish in the top 4 is 4-6. That doesn't change between the three.

[Fife Rover]

SSN reporting that Man Utd have written to UEFA to ask if Darren Fletchers red card can be overturned on compasionate ground, what??.

Do Utd think that the rules dont apply to them, there is no appeal for a card in Uefa tournaments unless it's mistaken identity, only Utd would have the cheek to try and and bend the rules to suit them.

I know exactly where you are coming from, and I fully endorse that viewpoint that Utd can and do get away with breaking the rules whenever it suits them to do so....or so it seems. However in this case the "rule" is so stupid, unfair and downright brainless that the rule itself by any standard of decency has to be wrong.

Therefore in this case it is right that not only Utd should be protesting against it, but the whole of football and its fans everywhere should be adding their voices to make it not just a chorus but a crescendo of protest, and in amongst it all they should be demanding the sacking of the buffoons that introduced it.