[Archived] Rovers Young Guns

[DingleBaiter]

Reserves on tonight at the home of the best pies in football.

Should be a strong side, King Carlos with be playing, team below...

ROVERS: Brown, Simpson, Marrow, Winnard, Kane, Judge, Andrews, O'Keefe, Olsson, Villanueva, Marshall. Subs: Hodge, Fielding, Doran, Griffiths, J. Santa Cruz.

[philipl]

Can anyone confirm that Bjorn Bussman saved 3 penalties in the Academy's 2-0 win against Leeds yesterday?

[philipl]

Answering my own q. ref gave pen, Bussman saved it, ref ordered retake, Bussman saved it, ref ordered retake, Bussman saved it, ref gave up.

Fielding gone on loan to Northampton- the plan under the Hughes regime was for Fielding to say with Rovers for intensive training this season.

Griffiths has gone on loan to Accy Stanley.

The Cercle Brugge thing seems to have gone cold. Ince obviously immune to the delights of great beer, chips and mayonaise and the most beautiful rennaisance city in northern Europe.

[LeChuck]

The Cercle Brugge thing seems to have gone cold. Ince obviously immune to the delights of great beer, chips and mayonaise and the most beautiful rennaisance city in northern Europe.

I thought the main idea of the Brugge thing was so we could send players over there who don't have work permits? I don't feel we're using this option as well as we could really. Actually, I don't think we're using it at all.

[USRoverME]

so we basically brought in Bunn to be the #2/3 w/ Brown and sent Fielding to northhampton as a replacement. Interesting and somewhat odd.

[67splitscreen]

so we basically brought in Bunn to be the #2/3 w/ Brown and sent Fielding to northhampton as a replacement. Interesting and somewhat odd.

Does seem strange as the cobblers promoted his understudy Dunne to No.1 after Bunn left, so I suppose they had no No.2

[DingleBaiter]

The Cercle Brugge thing seems to have gone cold. Ince obviously immune to the delights of great beer, chips and mayonaise and the most beautiful rennaisance city in northern Europe.

Didn't know you'd been to Cleethorpes, Philip Leeds game sounded a weird one, 3 pennos saved with two retakes - didn't realise spread betting went down to U-18 level!

TBH I thought we'd fell out of favour (or vice versa) with CB these days. Germany seems to have good links with scouting/agents etc for Academy, almost like a clearing house for football in general, along with some 'Roger Milla' passports.

I think Incey was maybe hoping someone would come in for J Brown so he could keep Fielding too, but then the Bunn deal came up - makes one wonder why they didn't do deal at same time? Strange days I guess.

[rover6]

So Bruno Berner has signed for Leicester City and is now playing at the same level as our left back reject, Andy Taylor.

So this idea that Berner's "wealth of experience" was invaluable to backing up the squad was, it seems, bunkum. The guy is now playing League 1 football for all his international caps. In fact, I guarentee that by the end of this season, Andy Taylor will be rated by League 1 experts as a better left back than Berner.

As I said before, Hughes was a fool to ditch Taylor for Berner. If he'd given Taylor the chance to back up the squad, we might, in the best case scenario, have a useful young left back pushing Olsson and Warnock. Or, we would have made a fair sum of money by giving him a chance to increase his value and then selling him. After all, we know from selling McEveley that even dubiously talented English youngsters with Prem experience sell well - especially if they're left-footed.

Either way, the prejudice in favour of experienced mediocrity wins the day - again.

It's so painful to see Rovers shooting themselves in the foot time and again.

[den]

As I said before, Hughes was a fool to ditch Taylor for Berner. If he'd given Taylor the chance to back up the squad, we might, in the best case scenario, have a useful young left back pushing Olsson and Warnock.

No, we would have had exactly what we had before we allowed him to move - a left back nowhere near good enough for the Premier league.

[Parsonblue]

So Bruno Berner has signed for Leicester City and is now playing at the same level as our left back reject, Andy Taylor.

So this idea that Berner's "wealth of experience" was invaluable to backing up the squad was, it seems, bunkum. The guy is now playing League 1 football for all his international caps. In fact, I guarentee that by the end of this season, Andy Taylor will be rated by League 1 experts as a better left back than Berner.

As I said before, Hughes was a fool to ditch Taylor for Berner. If he'd given Taylor the chance to back up the squad, we might, in the best case scenario, have a useful young left back pushing Olsson and Warnock. Or, we would have made a fair sum of money by giving him a chance to increase his value and then selling him. After all, we know from selling McEveley that even dubiously talented English youngsters with Prem experience sell well - especially if they're left-footed.

Either way, the prejudice in favour of experienced mediocrity wins the day - again.

It's so painful to see Rovers shooting themselves in the foot time and again.

rover6 if you had watched Taylor in the Reserves for any length of time you would know that he was never going to be of Premier League standard. Berner did the job that Hughes bought him for in that he provided experienced backup for Warnock. Fortunately, Warnock was never injured and so Berner was not called upon a great deal. However, if Warnock had been out for any length of time then I would have had more confidence in Berner than in Andy Taylor. Not every player we have in the reserves is destined for Premier League football. Indeed, I could name several who would struggle in League 2. However, we have others who may well make the grade. Sadly, I don't know anyone who believes that Andy Taylor was 'one that got away'.

[FourLaneBlue]

I thought the main idea of the Brugge thing was so we could send players over there who don't have work permits? I don't feel we're using this option as well as we could really. Actually, I don't think we're using it at all.

Wasn´t there a Zimbabwe player we recommend to them who we might pick up later? Something like that I remember.

[DingleBaiter]

So Bruno Berner has signed for Leicester City and is now playing at the same level as our left back reject, Andy Taylor.

So this idea that Berner's "wealth of experience" was invaluable to backing up the squad was, it seems, bunkum. The guy is now playing League 1 football for all his international caps. In fact, I guarentee that by the end of this season, Andy Taylor will be rated by League 1 experts as a better left back than Berner.

As I said before, Hughes was a fool to ditch Taylor for Berner. If he'd given Taylor the chance to back up the squad, we might, in the best case scenario, have a useful young left back pushing Olsson and Warnock. Or, we would have made a fair sum of money by giving him a chance to increase his value and then selling him. After all, we know from selling McEveley that even dubiously talented English youngsters with Prem experience sell well - especially if they're left-footed.

Either way, the prejudice in favour of experienced mediocrity wins the day - again.

It's so painful to see Rovers shooting themselves in the foot time and again.

Hughes gave Taylor more than enough chances to make a push to 'kick on' and come good, but he just flattened out it seems. Ollson come and took his chances better and had more to his game. Big things were predicted of Taylor initially and he never made a do of it, for whatever reason. It's a bit disingenuous to say Hughes ditched Taylor for Berner; I'd suggested he ditched Taylor for Ollson, who got a few chances last season. Berner was a bad un, but he did a job for Hughes - often out of position too due to Warnock being consistent & staying fit.

The criteria I'd always suggest will best stand talented youngsters in good stead is the ability to keep improving and retain motivation & hunger. Too many get a contract and then just fizzle out, a la Peter, Gallagher etc. That's not a failing on the academy, Rovers or whatever. Look at Treacy - best current example for taking his opportunity. Another one who Hughes had big hopes for but ended up spending last season losing faith with. Ince comes in, sees something in his game, tips him the nod and we've now got a left winger than can cross like a robot and beat people.

[67splitscreen]

Academy U 18's march on, unbeaten this season, adding Sheffield Wednesday scalp in a 4-1 win.

Is the lad Bowen the son of MB. Young Tom is becoming quite prolific on the scoring front, get him on a contract before he's tapped up. and we lose out.

Academy.

[Hughesy]

No, we would have had exactly what we had before we allowed him to move - a left back nowhere near good enough for the Premier league.

Exactly! Same as gallagher!

[Head Rover Heels]

Wasn´t there a Zimbabwe player we recommend to them who we might pick up later? Something like that I remember.

I'm not really sure of the usefulness of me posting this, apart from to give you a bit of a confidence boost memory wise, but i remember that too, and in the same detail.

Young kid came to us on trial possibly, signed for them for 2 or 3 years with a view to coming here. Um, that's all i remember.

[DingleBaiter]

Academy U 18's march on, unbeaten this season, adding Sheffield Wednesday scalp in a 4-1 win.

Is the lad Bowen the son of MB. Young Tom is becoming quite prolific on the scoring front, get him on a contract before he's tapped up. and we lose out.

Academy.

Hitchy was there on Sat morning watching his lad; I doubt Jordan is Mark's son (though not able to say for certain); he's already played for England schoolboys.

Tom's too young for a contract as yet; can't sign until he's 17

This Zimbabwean - you're not getting mixed up with Francis 'Bobby' Zenaba are you? He was from Congo (or DR?) and came in after we got Samba.

[Head Rover Heels]

Could be, I just had a vague recollection of a picture of a lad on a training pitch in Belgium, and spotting the Z on Zimbabwe brought back an incredibly vague memory.

Striker, i think??

[Lee]

This is Jordan Bowen

He's not related to Mark Bowen.

Kevin Hitchcock always watches his son when he can, he was at Leeds Academy the previous week.

The player out in Belgium is Macky aka Osahon Eboigbe

[Head Rover Heels]

The player out in Belgium is Macky aka Osahon Eboigbe

Aha, that'll be him - He's a striker. I hate getting old, i'm sure i used to be able to remember stuff - although i can't be certain.

[DingleBaiter]

This is Jordan Bowen

He's not related to Mark Bowen.

Kevin Hitchcock always watches his son when he can, he was at Leeds Academy the previous week.

The player out in Belgium is Macky aka Osahon Eboigbe

Is that Macky related to Don, late of the Calfs Head, Worston?

[67splitscreen]

Academy, Player profiles.

Thanks for the link Lee. With the Pro squads in general, background/profile info is far more accessible.

The Academy profiles are so brief, Nationality, position, age, playing stats.

Why can't they put more meet on the bones, like home town, school played for, players interest outside of football.

Just make them generally, more in depth, with a bit of history prior to joining Rovers, and making them a bit more interesting.

Just a thought.

[67splitscreen]

No Edit available.

Re. above.

Julio Santa Cruz has no profile. Poor lad. Come on BRFC staff, get your finger out.

[rover6]

No, we would have had exactly what we had before we allowed him to move - a left back nowhere near good enough for the Premier league. (If Taylor had been given a chance to back-up Warnock rather than importing the Swiss dud, Berner)

Den, you are absolutely burying your head in the sand.

Do you not appreciate that had Andy Taylor played instead of Berner and then been sold off, we would have made more money than we did from selling him having suffocated him of opportunity? [barring, exceptional bad showings - which, as Taylor seemed to prove when he played RB for the first team in pre-season, was unlikely].

The major problem with our disagreement, Den, is that its hypothetical. A parallel world where Taylor was retained and played does not exist for us to point to to justify our arguments. So we have to rely on imagination and logic to extrapolate from known examples. However, you are not extrapolating in your arguments, you are simply relying on the hypothetical nature of the argument to not disprove your dogma.

If you gave me an example of a promising player, comparable to Taylor, being given a chance at Premier League level and messing up terribly and costing his club points and moving on for a pittance, then I would start respecting your stance - and this argument would go somewhere. I could then point out that Jay McEveley, imo is an inferior left back to Andy Taylor and was actually a centre back out of position. I could point out that we earned over a million pounds for McEveley and but for the fact his contract was expiring in 6 months, we could've earned more. Our argument would go somewhere - if not ever be concluded.

However, you seem to have absolved yourself from any necessity to extrapolate in this argument. Thus, I extrapolate - you say that's nonsense. I extrapolate - you say that's nonsense. ANd so on.

[den]

[1] Den, you are absolutely burying your head in the sand.

[2] Do you not appreciate that had Andy Taylor played instead of Berner and then been sold off, we would have made more money than we did from selling him having suffocated him of opportunity? [barring, exceptional bad showings - which, as Taylor seemed to prove when he played RB for the first team in pre-season, was unlikely].

[3] The major problem with our disagreement, Den, is that its hypothetical. A parallel world where Taylor was retained and played does not exist for us to point to to justify our arguments. So we have to rely on imagination and logic to extrapolate from known examples. However, you are not extrapolating in your arguments, you are simply relying on the hypothetical nature of the argument to not disprove your dogma.

If you gave me an example of a promising player, comparable to Taylor, being given a chance at Premier League level and messing up terribly and costing his club points and moving on for a pittance, then I would start respecting your stance - and this argument would go somewhere. [4] I could then point out that Jay McEveley, imo is an inferior left back to Andy Taylor and was actually a centre back out of position. I could point out that we earned over a million pounds for McEveley and but for the fact his contract was expiring in 6 months, we could've earned more. Our argument would go somewhere - if not ever be concluded.

However, you seem to have absolved yourself from any necessity to extrapolate in this argument. Thus, I extrapolate - you say that's nonsense. I extrapolate - you say that's nonsense. ANd so on.

1] I have seen Andy Taylor play many times.

2] Why would I want someone playing before Berner, who isn't as good? That logic would apply to absolutely any youngster in the academy, do you want to play them all in the first team?

3] Pardon? My dogma? When I discuss these things with you, it's based on my judgement of a player, having seen them for myself. It's the ONLY way to judge a player.

4] Jay McEveley is a better left back than Andy Taylor every day of the week. Not that McEveley is a great left back, but he's better than Taylor. I've seen both of them many times, - how many times have you seen them to make that judgement? There again, you think that your opinion of a player is more valid than someone who has actually seen them play, so there's a massive difference of opinion.

Rover6, I applaud you desire to see the academy lads making it through to the first team, - there isn't a rovers fan alive that wouldn't want that. You continually push lads forward though, that simply aren't good enough to make the grade at Premier League level. That's the massive flaw in your argument. To continue saying that they would have been better players if they had been given experience is an argument that you know can't be ultimately disproved. The facts are though, that actually non of them have got anywhere near proving that they were good enough to play regular Prem football after leaving rovers. Can you point to anything at all that says rovers got it wrong? Anything?

[DingleBaiter]

Can you point to anything at all that says rovers got it wrong? Anything?

It's all getting a bit existential to me with all this talk of dogma, extrapolation etc - sounds more like a experiment in school or a debating lesson.

Wasn't McEveley loaned to the 'dingles graveyard' at one point? We only usually do that in a 'Charles Dickens Christmas Carol' way to show players what their careers will end up like if they don't pull their finger out - such as Todd & Gillespie.

Think the only parallel you can take from them two players is they either proved not to be good enough by whatever was around at the time, or they failed to develop in the way others expected of them once they'd been contracted.

Just because McEveley had more first team appearances and we probably earned more revenue off his sale does not necessarily make him a better player than Taylor; often it's just circumstantial - don't forget there were different managers in place at the time, for instance.

Who theoretically was in front of Taylor for the first team/squad - Warnock, then Ollson? What about McEveley - Gresko, Matteo, and a player who retired thru injury. I'd suggest even if both players were exactly similar in every way, it would have been more likely they'd play more under the Souness regime than Hughes, as the squad/first team competition for his place was lesser.