[Archived] Rovers Young Guns

[rover6]

In the case of derbs, he had shown enough in the academy and in the reserves, to suggest he had a chance. That was the right decision by the club, wasn't it? In the case of Taylor, which is who I'm discussing with rover6, the club decided that he wasn't going to make the grade, and rightly so IMO.

There, Den, you are ignoring the inconvenient facts of Derbyshire's case - that American actually stated.

The philosophy is wrong and the Derbyshire case supports that. Derbyshire ONLY got his chance when he did because Jason Roberts, Shabani Nonda and Francis Jeffers got injured at the same time. In addition, the transfer window had closed, preventing a new purchase. Furthermore, Hughes admitted that at the time he did not think that Derbyshire was ready.

So Derbyshire did not get selected on pure merit. He got lucky with injury crises. Just as Jay McEveley benefited from an injury crisis. Andy Taylor was unlucky, there was no left back injury crisis during the seasons he was here.

The current prevailing philosophy is racked by excessive fear of fielding youngsters. Thus, youth progress is increasingly dependent on flukey injury crises that strike down several experienced players at once. This doesn't happen that often.

Rover6's opinion seems to be, that these lads such as Taylor, would bring in more cash, or would make better players with more first team games behind them. I reckon that the club can't possibly operate that way. They must decide early in their career, keep them, or release them. The club must decide "yes" they can make it, or "no" they will fall short. Still don't see where the club has got that wrong.

But the club does NOT decide early on. Look at Taylor. He was still at the club at the age of 21. Bryan Hodge got a new contract recently and he must be 20.

The club have this ambivalent approach. They see promise in a guy, and tie him down to the club. But they don't have the guts to give him opportunities, so they starve him of first team chances and then release him in his early 20s. What is the point?

[Note for anyone joining this argument late - we are not talking about Damien Duff standard young players here. We are talking late developers, promising if not exceptional. The sort that, given confidence, could prove useful Premier League players or lucrative saleable assets.

[ABBEY]

There, Den, you are ignoring the inconvenient facts of Derbyshire's case - that American actually stated.

hahaha talk about a kettle calling a pan sooty arse.......check the loan thread and stop ignoring questions you dont like answering.

[Majiball]

The current prevailing philosophy is racked by excessive fear of fielding youngsters. Thus, youth progress is increasingly dependent on flukey injury crises that strike down several experienced players at once. This doesn't happen that often.

The club have this ambivalent approach. They see promise in a guy, and tie him down to the club. But they don't have the guts to give him opportunities, so they starve him of first team chances and then release him in his early 20s. What is the point?

Off course managers are afraid of fielding kids, 1 place in this league is worth almost 1M pounds. but there is also the side that you have not considered.

Imagine being thrust into the world's best league when you are not ready, and it goes wrong. What then? does he have the right mentality to bounce back? Its dropping them in the deep end. All through the academy they have staggered progression and then they are expected to go from climbing Ben Nevis to scaling Everest.

While I advocate giving youth a chance, at the same time not just because they are there. They should be given opportunities elsewhere, it showcases there talents and generates knowledge of them within the game boosting interest from other clubs. At the same time giving them a higher challenge than reserve team level but still not a big a leap as going straight into the premiership.

If you get it wrong with Youth you can screw them up for good. Does anyone remember Cherno Samba, up to U16 level at england he kept Rooney out of the team, Now where is he? Too much to soon.

In response to the releasing in early twenties, the reserves need players too.

[den]

All this started Rover6, with your opinion, often repeated, that Andy Taylor should have been played in the first team.

He was released. Now then, as long as I can remember, going back to the 1959 youth team, I can't honestly remember rovers releasing many, if any youngster that then went on to play at at as high, or even a higher level. I've asked before but you don't answer, why have they got it wrong this time? What is it about his game that tells you he could make it to the top? Is it his physical strength, his vision, his distribution or what?

[American]

To be fair, can't think of many, if any, of our veteran players specifically brought in to be backups, such as Berner, going on to play at as higher, or even a higher level.

Hopefully the 7 player bench will allow us to give the younger players a run in when up by 2 or more goals late. I doubt that would have happened under Hughes, if he were still here.

[ABBEY]

i cant see it happening for while american.....us being 2-0 up.

[Majiball]

To be fair, can't think of many, if any, of our veteran players specifically brought in to be backups, such as Berner, going on to play at as higher, or even a higher level.

Hopefully the 7 player bench will allow us to give the younger players a run in when up by 2 or more goals late. I doubt that would have happened under Hughes, if he were still here.

Have you guys seen the new idea at the FA, that is being considered? They wish to enforce that clubs have 2 players on there bench that have come through the academy.

[DingleBaiter]

Have you guys seen the new idea at the FA, that is being considered? They wish to enforce that clubs have 2 players on there bench that have come through the academy.

This is one of the reasons why last season our Academy announced a top-to-bottom review of performance & future focus, main point being we're aiming to widen the intakes for more domestic (rather than international) players coming into it. We're now operating with a wider 'funnel' in bringing more English lads (rather than bulk being Irish or otherwise) and still concentrating on trying to get just one or two 'stars' through for first team rather than 5 or 6 reserve/possibles.

It's also in-line with proposed realignment of European games, such as in this seasons Champions League squads where teams such as Liverpool HAVE to name a certain amount of Academy/home-grown players, which riled Sami Hypia as he was one of the 'established' players that had to drop out.

[Majiball]

This is one of the reasons why last season our Academy announced a top-to-bottom review of performance & future focus, main point being we're aiming to widen the intakes for more domestic (rather than international) players coming into it. We're now operating with a wider 'funnel' in bringing more English lads (rather than bulk being Irish or otherwise) and still concentrating on trying to get just one or two 'stars' through for first team rather than 5 or 6 reserve/possibles.

It's also in-line with proposed realignment of European games, such as in this seasons Champions League squads where teams such as Liverpool HAVE to name a certain amount of Academy/home-grown players, which riled Sami Hypia as he was one of the 'established' players that had to drop out.

As I've said previously with reference to the academy, its not the ideas that put me off its the execution/ability of those involved to be able to deliver on their promises.

I love the way you have highlighted the champ's league rules, you have high hopes today UEFA will do for me.

I am pleased though to see that idea's are being thought of at both the FA and rovers. I think its scandalous that in the premiership (its increasing below that level as well now) you can see teams with next to no, homegrown players. Its a disgrace to see complete teams of players from outside Britain, most other European leagues have a strong percentage of home grown players but here we do not.

[John]

Not seen this anywhere else, so apologies if already mentioned:

TWO of Rovers' promising youngsters are the latest to be allocated squad numbers by manager Paul Ince.

[philipl]

Very encouraging news with two young teenagers like Doran and Bussman getting squad numbers.

Perhaps we will get the dingles in the next round of the Leage Cup and tub them 6-0 playing the under-16s as Arsenal have just done to Sheff U?

[rover6]

I finally wrote a letter to Ince urging him to implement rover6's blueprint for youth football.

I wonder what he'll make of it.

[Majiball]

care to share??

[rover6]

Nah, it's just what I've always been writing on here. Nothing sophisticated just a reverse in the unjustified preference for experienced mediocrity and a attention to the psychological development of youngsters through careful but concerted transition games.

Arsene Wenger has set the bench mark. The money he has spent is not strictly relevant because I don't suggest that we could attract the quality they have. However, his philosophy and method is admirable and reaping incredibly successful rewards. Its just a shame the rest of the football world, in their ignorance and envy, choose to bury their heads in the sand and mutter about 'contacts' and 'money'.

It's not contacts or money, it's application of a progressive philosophy.

[Majiball]

Fair enough, not gonna argue with you over arsenal.

Would be keen to know his response though, if your willing?

I have reservations over our youth system, as I have voiced on the forum. I do feel on a personal level that it is the only way we will be able to continue to compete at our current level.

The trouble with the Arsenal compassion though is continuity. Arsenal at all levels play the same style so its a lot easier for them to slot in. I doubt Ince will be here as long as Wenger has been at Arsenal, so is it something that we can hope to achieve?

Wenger has strict criteria for all players at the club, to fit in with his vision for how the game should be played. Every new manager that comes into our club will have different ideas, making continuity almost impossible for us to achieve.

[rover6]

For a moment, we Rovers fans should put our differences aside about the youth policy at Rovers and recognise that Ince is doing a great job of getting young players integrated in the first team. Congratualtions to Treacy and Olsson, and hopefully, they will inspire the others who have the desire to make it.

[Exiled_Rover]

I'm happy that Ince is giving these players extended shots - hopefully Treacy'll toughen up with more starts. He reminds me of Pedersen when he first arrived; soft beyond belief. Olsson looks very, very useful though.

[[email protected]]

Hoilett watch update:

He's now getting a little more involved - he's managed a start and looked very refreshing, but a little raw - he seems to be on the short side, and - at least for the 2nd Buli, looks very very fast. Scored against Kaiserslautern before he was taken off, came on in the win against 1860 and looked very lively against tiring players. He appears to be very confident with the ball at his feet, which is causing him issues when he tries too hard to do Ronaldo/Nani esque step-overs.

I reckon he has a good chance of securing himself a regular starting spot by the xmas break, and if he can do that bagging a fair few goals in this league, especially as the first few games have included the difficult trips to Lautern and Furth.

to sum up so far - exceeding expectations, but not yet one of Pauli's key players by any stretch of the imagination.

[philipl]

Hoilett watch update:

He's now getting a little more involved - he's managed a start and looked very refreshing, but a little raw - he seems to be on the short side, and - at least for the 2nd Buli, looks very very fast. Scored against Kaiserslautern before he was taken off, came on in the win against 1860 and looked very lively against tiring players. He appears to be very confident with the ball at his feet, which is causing him issues when he tries too hard to do Ronaldo/Nani esque step-overs.

I reckon he has a good chance of securing himself a regular starting spot by the xmas break, and if he can do that bagging a fair few goals in this league, especially as the first few games have included the difficult trips to Lautern and Furth.

to sum up so far - exceeding expectations, but not yet one of Pauli's key players by any stretch of the imagination.

Thanks- that is encouraging!

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Nah, it's just what I've always been writing on here. Nothing sophisticated just a reverse in the unjustified preference for experienced mediocrity and a attention to the psychological development of youngsters through careful but concerted transition games.

Arsene Wenger has set the bench mark. The money he has spent is not strictly relevant because I don't suggest that we could attract the quality they have. However, his philosophy and method is admirable and reaping incredibly successful rewards. Its just a shame the rest of the football world, in their ignorance and envy, choose to bury their heads in the sand and mutter about 'contacts' and 'money'.

It's not contacts or money, it's application of a progressive philosophy.

I agree that Wenger's handling of youth - and the players they purchase is first class. I think Walcott is a prime example of a player that they have taken raw talent and moulded into a more complete team player. However - you can not ignore that the current Arsenal youth team cost more than our first team. Credit to Arsene for picking the right players - but money makes a huge difference.

[den]

Thrashed Liverpool today.

Sounds impressive.

[mac]

easy win Pool never in the game, Rovers by far the better side !

[Amo]

Tom Ince played well for Liverpool? Is he the Guvnor's son?

[rover6]

Yes.

[DingleBaiter]

Tom Ince played well? You sure?

Did anyone on the Liverpool side have a good game?

Arsenal is always an easy trump card for people as a template for youth promotion, but - like everything - it depends on the criteria.

They spend fortunes on acquisition, have high churn rates and most folk that quote certain players as examples can't quote the failures, so it's not always a balanced argument.

Was it 2003 they played us in the Youth Cup? Talk then was they had spent 8million at the point to get to that stage. We'd spent nothing like that much, yet we've recouped big bucks on players out. So, in one commercial aspect we've benefitted - and this is the focus for development that was one of Ince's biggest assets.

Bear in mind the club had already set in place a revamp of the Academy focus over the next 3 years, based on the Boro template and with a nod to new rule changes regarding home-grown players.

Bottom line, just as Arsenal can't really be compared to our Rovers like-for-like on the first-team/club level, neither can they be Academy wise. As ever with the 'big clubs', they don't have to create a youth system when they can poach other clubs (Chelsea-Leeds, Spurs-Palace, Liverpool-anywhere, Arsenal-Spain, Marseille etc.)