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[Archived] Rovers Young Guns

Philly Rover ®

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92er Champions League

92er

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Was it 2003 they played us in the Youth Cup? Talk then was they had spent 8million at the point to get to that stage. We'd spent nothing like that much, yet we've recouped big bucks on players out. So, in one commercial aspect we've benefitted - and this is the focus for development that was one of Ince's biggest assets.

I presume you are talking about the FA Youth final?

Like you, I'm not sure what year it was. What stood out for me was it was the first time we had got to the final, and none of our players went on to play in the top Division.

And we certainly haven't recouped big bucks on players produced by the Academy.

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philipl World Cup

philipl

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I presume you are talking about the FA Youth final?

Like you, I'm not sure what year it was. What stood out for me was it was the first time we had got to the final, and none of our players went on to play in the top Division.

And we certainly haven't recouped big bucks on players produced by the Academy.

The gulf between the Rovers youngsters and Arsenal's was vast.

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DingleBaiter Premier League

DingleBaiter

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I presume you are talking about the FA Youth final?

Like you, I'm not sure what year it was. What stood out for me was it was the first time we had got to the final, and none of our players went on to play in the top Division.

And we certainly haven't recouped big bucks on players produced by the Academy.

Think that's not quite correct on a few counts. What about the Everton side of Cadamerteri (sp?), Jeavons, Jeffers, Dunne? Also, although Arsenal had a few English lads such as Hoyte & Sidwell that came through, just as in the senior side they were awash with players from further afield too, whereas (I think!) Rovers only had British/Irish lads at that stage.

What about making 1 million when Birmingham bought Neil Danns for instance?

How much is this side worth? (job for the stattos) Dunn, Duff (22 mill working on the transfer fees quoted at time), Damien Johnson, Tiny Taylor, Danns, and that's without checking the team sheet.

Given Rovers Academy have a proud record of finding clubs for players released, as well as some interesting sell-ons (Danns, Garner, several who went via Bolton up to Scotland) I would suggest commercially the Academy's doing okay. Interesting point to note is some of Rovers most famous youth graduates were actually JF's lads, before the Academy 'went live'.

IMO there's 3 brackets the Academys fall into generally - roughly the same as their senior side. Top level you have Arsenal, Man United, Chelsea who tend to transfer in from all over with a few genuine home-grown players. Bottom end you have clubs that punch above their weight and provide a better youth set up pro rata than the senior side (Peterborough, Leeds, Palace, Derby, West Brom). Then in the middle you have clubs with a combination of the two (Man City, Bolton, Rovers etc.). Bottom line, one wouldn't want to compare Arsenal as a club 'like for like' with Rovers and it's the same for the Academys.

The gulf between the Rovers youngsters and Arsenal's was vast.

As was their cost Philip; thought you being a money man would have mentioned that ;-)

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How much did we make on Dunn, Duff, Andy Taylor, Tiny Taylor, Johnson?

Add to that the value of Treacy, Olsson & Derbyshire & Gallagher.

The first group, as has been said a number of times were not produced by the Academy-apart from AT and I have no idea what we got for him.

We bought Olsson, got MD from Gt Harwood.

No idea the worth of the other 2, but they are far from being Premiership regulars.

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Think that's not quite correct on a few counts. What about the Everton side of Cadamerteri (sp?), Jeavons, Jeffers, Dunne? Also, although Arsenal had a few English lads such as Hoyte & Sidwell that came through, just as in the senior side they were awash with players from further afield too, whereas (I think!) Rovers only had British/Irish lads at that stage.

What about making 1 million when Birmingham bought Neil Danns for instance?

How much is this side worth? (job for the stattos) Dunn, Duff (22 mill working on the transfer fees quoted at time), Damien Johnson, Tiny Taylor, Danns, and that's without checking the team sheet.

Given Rovers Academy have a proud record of finding clubs for players released, as well as some interesting sell-ons (Danns, Garner, several who went via Bolton up to Scotland) I would suggest commercially the Academy's doing okay. Interesting point to note is some of Rovers most famous youth graduates were actually JF's lads, before the Academy 'went live'.

The first point I was making was that the Arsenal final was the first time we had got to such a final and none of our players went on to establish themselves in the top division, unlike the previous two times, against WH and Everton.

Danns first went to Colchester-I think the fee was around £300,000 and I can't remember details of the sell-on clause.

Dunn, Duff, Tiny Taylor etc came through the previous system before the Academy was set up.

We really have produced very little in terms of quality,as has been said a number of times, since the Academy was set up. I am sure I have seen it suggested that it costs around £2mil pa to run the Academy so the Academy has been running at a fair loss.

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DingleBaiter Premier League

DingleBaiter

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The first point I was making was that the Arsenal final was the first time we had got to such a final and none of our players went on to establish themselves in the top division, unlike the previous two times, against WH and Everton.

Danns first went to Colchester-I think the fee was around £300,000 and I can't remember details of the sell-on clause.

Dunn, Duff, Tiny Taylor etc came through the previous system before the Academy was set up.

We really have produced very little in terms of quality,as has been said a number of times, since the Academy was set up. I am sure I have seen it suggested that it costs around £2mil pa to run the Academy so the Academy has been running at a fair loss.

For someone that repeats 'as has been said a number a times', maybe it's because you seem to have missed a few things first time round?

The point was made previously about Danns, going via Colchester and bringing in 1 mill in a sell-on.

The point was made previously some of said players were JF's lads before the Academy was established, though still our youth system. Likewise, other clubs didn't have Academys (inc Arsenal) although most had youth stream of some sort.

As for excluding certain players as we paid for them (such as MD & MO), again it's a selective argument. If your point is that we can only judge players on two criteria - no money changing hands, and producing 'quality' then I tend to agree with you. However, same argument would also probably prove correct at other clubs - none moreso than Arsenal. However 'quality' is such an obtuse term, certainly it's not easily measurable - a technically brilliant player or a player clubs will pay a lot of money for (Carrick & Hargreaves for instance).

It's an interesting debate, with some good points. However, it's good to debate with clearly defined edges too. One could simply say the Academy is pants because we've never produced a player as good as Duffer since. One could also say, that since the Academy went 'live', it may have run at a loss; however it's equally hard to debate what we would have done without having an Academy, almost a moot point? There's also an argument that it's only recently (since MH & moreso with Ince) become closer aligned to the first team manager, and will be moreso in the future. What is uncertain is what the future holds; past return is no guarantee of future reward/losses, but I'm quite confident the Academy et al will prove more vital to our long term development over time.

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For someone that repeats 'as has been said a number a times', maybe it's because you seem to have missed a few things first time round?

The point was made previously about Danns, going via Colchester and bringing in 1 mill in a sell-on.( I don't altogether understand how, when Birmingham paid approx £800,000 for Danns, that we could get a £1mill sell on clause.)

The point was made previously some of said players were JF's lads before the Academy was established, though still our youth system. Likewise, other clubs didn't have Academys (inc Arsenal) although most had youth stream of some sort.

As for excluding certain players as we paid for them (such as MD & MO), again it's a selective argument. If your point is that we can only judge players on two criteria - no money changing hands, and producing 'quality' then I tend to agree with you. However, same argument would also probably prove correct at other clubs - none moreso than Arsenal. However 'quality' is such an obtuse term, certainly it's not easily measurable - a technically brilliant player or a player clubs will pay a lot of money for (Carrick & Hargreaves for instance).

It's an interesting debate, with some good points. However, it's good to debate with clearly defined edges too. One could simply say the Academy is pants because we've never produced a player as good as Duffer since. One could also say, that since the Academy went 'live', it may have run at a loss; however it's equally hard to debate what we would have done without having an Academy, almost a moot point? There's also an argument that it's only recently (since MH & moreso with Ince) become closer aligned to the first team manager, and will be moreso in the future. What is uncertain is what the future holds; past return is no guarantee of future reward/losses, but I'm quite confident the Academy et al will prove more vital to our long term development over time.

The "as has been said a number of times" refers to a number of debates about the effectiveness of the Academy, as compared with the previous system, that have gone on this message board over the years. Some people have alleged bias amongst the people that run the Academy.I have no knowledge of this.

You think the Academy will prove its worth. I'm sure Uncle Jack wanted that to happen when he set it up.

My point is that whatever you want to call the youth system, it has been singularly ineffective in producing players for the top division during this decade, especially given the comparative wealth of the club compared with the last 50 years. The 2 most likely to be able to perform at that level from the current crop appear to be Derbyshire and Ollson. Time will tell.

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DingleBaiter Premier League

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The "as has been said a number of times" refers to a number of debates about the effectiveness of the Academy, as compared with the previous system, that have gone on this message board over the years. Some people have alleged bias amongst the people that run the Academy.I have no knowledge of this.

You think the Academy will prove its worth. I'm sure Uncle Jack wanted that to happen when he set it up.

My point is that whatever you want to call the youth system, it has been singularly ineffective in producing players for the top division during this decade, especially given the comparative wealth of the club compared with the last 50 years. The 2 most likely to be able to perform at that level from the current crop appear to be Derbyshire and Ollson. Time will tell.

Good reply there; must admit to not trawling back over historic messages & threads historically, way too much stuff to remember otherwise!

There really shouldn't be a distinction for the case of argument about the Academy, based on semantics. One of most memorable things Dalglish said in his time was for the need to build two teams; the SAS first team and the one five years henceforth. It's also true what you say about producing players for the top division, but the very nature of the concept is the long term.

Rovers have after all been very prescient in their Academy concept, effectively as a template that only others have caught up on in recent years. Interesting to note yesterdays Bolton game was played at their 'new' training ground/future Academy; so new in fact, they was having an opening ceremony c/w Mayor and other dignitaries. What was there? Two proper pitches, artificial training pitch compound, several portakabins and an old scout shed.

One aspect of the argument that needs balance isn't the quality of the players being acquired/developed, it's the 'flattening' they experience instead of developing - lets call it the 'reserve/professional' mentality. There's heaps of factors there though, sometimes the player just tosses it off - Sergio being a case in point - and possibly Treacy was heading that way until Ince intervened. Sometimes it's the club manager's mindset; good as Hughes was, Ince is empowering the reserves/Academy more than Hughes ever did. However, it's only possible to see the benefit of that somewhere down the line. It's no coincidence the lack of development of certain players coincided with certain managers though.

From my stance - completely independent of any ties to the Academy, financially, family, friends or otherwise, I think the current setup - on and off field - is the best we've had since JF days, and am quietly confident we will see the benefit of that over next few seasons. One note about objectivity though - look at Boro yesterday; 6 out of 11 were Academy graduates. On one hand, they were good enough for the top division in the opinion of their club. However, in the bigger scheme of things, the team wasn't good enough to match Chelsea. A cynic could therefore maintain that Boro's Academy is ultimately useless in competing in the top level. A realist could say they're doing the best and are successful given the constraints they are working in.

Rovers ultimate aim with the Academy is to maintain a flow of players, possibly a couple, every season that's good enough for the first team/squad to play at the level the club aims for. Take Banton for instance, despite being mentioned in Nicko's esteemed tome as a potential Bentley, he's still only an U-16 player. Maybe an U-18 by the end of season, with a view to being a reserve/pro next season. IF everything goes to plan, given the multitude of factors they face at that level, best case scenario his first team introduction could be two years off. Problem is people read that article last week and if he's not starting against Boro they will assume he's a pudding :o

Well done to the U18s yesterday, another nice win (and clean sheet) against Bolton.

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DingleBaiter Premier League

DingleBaiter

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Curiously someone on here must have links to the NW academy league website for tables and results. I get a bit fed up waiting for news and would like to check them out as they occur.

Thanks in advance.

It is difficult keeping track TBH, they certainly haven't caught up with things like blogs or RSS! Some of the clubs are more up-to-press than others.

Best bet is either the club's own Academy News page, or downloading the bulletins from the FA's publication page, or (given the usual disclaimers), Wikipedia (Rovers being in Group C).

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DingleBaiter Premier League

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Curiously I've not seen many of our kids play so I was wondering if any of them have pace but by that I mean sprinter class pace?

Well, you should jolly well sort that out then! :P

They do have a couple of quick U-18 players, but not in the Bellamy/Walcott 'explosive' way. Banton's rumoured to be a bit nippy though.

Pace is an awkward thing to judge though, don't you think? Treacy for instance, is more deceptive than fast. Some of the current reserves were quite spritely as scholars & have bulked up/grown taller over their time, so their strides have lengthened too - with an accordant increase in perceived speed. However, some of the opposing players have grown more! There's some right Frankenstein's knocking about at Youth level, think that's where the 'sports science' comes in?

At the recent West Brom drubbing, there apparently were some distinct Jamaican accents amongst the away support. They had some fast lads in their side-draw your own conclusions..... I can feel a need for a scout in Jamaica :lol:

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Majiball World Cup

Majiball

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I'll sort it out if ever I get a day off!

I was hoping to get along to the Liverpool game but Alas more work was heaped upon me. It will happen soon I promise.

Pace is a open one though, guess a lot depends on how you categorise it? pure point to point, or do you include acceleration, deceleration in your calculations, endurance, top velocity and so on I would probably do the lot. I've seen a lot of lower league clubs who do it on a purely subjective basis who are then surprised when results come in. With reference to the sports science I think a lot of it also comes down to tailoring the training to suit the individual IE shorter players are notoriously quick initially so focus should be on this explosive element.

I'm not surprised about most players looking like Frankensteins with the whole puberty and strength training idea's implicated nowadays. I love the way that people go on about the athleticism of people who come from non first world countries IE Africa etc. Its purely environmental, sociologically based there is no real difference between us and them genetically. There has been alot of talk over the last few years about how much playing time it takes to create a top level player with the FA saying 10,000 hours between 6 and 18 thats 2.2 hours everyday. The part that I find most interesting is the likes of Ronaldinho and Messi (33,000 hrs & 35,000 hrs or 7.5hrs & 8 hrs per day) its quite a difference? I can only assume mosts kids don't have play-stations over there :P .

If you look at a centre of excellence or even an academy how much time do they really spend developing within the environment 6-12 hrs a week? Its not enough. How much time do you think a kid from Africa south America spends playing? Don't forget they probably can't even afford the ball and use whatever they find, no wonder they are all so athletic. Diet and fluids play a huge part, there's will have high good carb's and protein with low fat, ours high fat, bad carb's and low protein. Makes a huge difference over a period of 12 years.

Most of the two mentioned players spent more time playing 5 a side then any other type of training, hence why man utd now only do 4 v 4 with their younger kids. South America is the place to look for developing kids methods and techniques they persistently produce top players year in year out.

I can feel the need for a scout/coach in Brazil!!! :lol:

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DingleBaiter Premier League

DingleBaiter

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DingleBaiter.

Are you keeping tabs. 2 in 7 i think, I don't speak German :o

Hoilett

Stats, I don't understand them in English, let alone German!

Hope he keeps up the hard work - sure the lad's every chance of coming good for us one day.

Would be great to fit in a trip there as an away run one weekend :P

PS. Try this link to translate

You need to copy and paste the website/URL link into it, select the language to and from.

Not too sure what it means with 'passports' though on one of the columns, unless they're running some sort of racket....

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