[Archived] Rovers Young Guns

[Parsonblue]

So his pre- & early-season form, though probably closer to this potential, was a positive 'blip' and he's since reverted to form? Would you suggest the same has happened to young Judgey? NO. YOUNG JUDGE HAS ALWAYS HAD A GREAT ATTITUDE. HE MAY HAVE POOR GAMES FROM TIME TO TIME BUT HE NEVER STOPS TRYING. JUDGE HAS BEEN IN TREMENDOUS FORM THIS SEASON AND HOW ANDY HAWORTH, WHO CAN'T GET INTO THE RESERVE TEAM, GOT AHEAD OF HIM AGAINST SUNDERLAND IS BEYOND COMPREHENSION.

Is it true that Carlos stormed off straight down to dressing room in this game? YES. HE WAS VERY POOR AGAINST A VERY YOUNG MANCHESTER CITY SIDE.

One has to wonder - without falling into the pro/anti Ince debate - what's happened to these 3 players that showed such promise and potential at the start of Ince's tenure, often being cited as a positive for Ince in showing faith in them? AS I SAID, JUDGE HAS BEEN ON GREAT FORM IN THE RESERVES AND SHOULD BE AHEAD OF BOTH TREACY AND CARLOS IN THE PECKING ORDER.

Is it just a function of not having the cojones to be bold enough to manage them properly, or possibly that's he's lost his bottle in them because of the present predicament? APART FROM OLSSON, JUDGE AND DORAN WE DON'T HAVE MANY YOUNG PLAYERS WHO YOU WOULD PUT ANYWHERE NEAR THE FIRST TEAM. TREACY OUGHT TO BE GOOD ENOUGH BUT HIS ATTITUTE IS THE PROBLEM.

I'm aghast we've not managed to get the best out of Carlos still, and it's getting close to make-your-mind-up time. Ironic when one considers how little time he's played in his 'best' position and given he's got goals in him IMO. CARLOS HAS LOOKED POOR EVEN IN THE RESERVES. I'M NOT CONVINCED THAT ENGLISH FOOTBALL IS THE RIGHT ENVIRONMENT FOR HIM.

[American]

Isn't it painfully obvious that from top to bottom, we have a football management team that is totally out of its depth and needs to be replaced ASAP?

You're right, Williams out!

[den]

So his pre- & early-season form, though probably closer to this potential, was a positive 'blip' and he's since reverted to form? Would you suggest the same has happened to young Judgey?

Is it true that Carlos stormed off straight down to dressing room in this game?

One has to wonder - without falling into the pro/anti Ince debate - what's happened to these 3 players that showed such promise and potential at the start of Ince's tenure, often being cited as a positive for Ince in showing faith in them?

Is it just a function of not having the cojones to be bold enough to manage them properly, or possibly that's he's lost his bottle in them because of the present predicament?

I'm aghast we've not managed to get the best out of Carlos still, and it's getting close to make-your-mind-up time. Ironic when one considers how little time he's played in his 'best' position and given he's got goals in him IMO.

I didn't see any difference between Treacy's pre- season form and his form since. There's much hype around here whenever a youngster makes a first team appearance, or when anyone dare to suggest that any youngster might not be good enough.

Carlos has played one good game for me, - against Grimsby [bottom three of the second division when I last looked, one place above the conference]. I was the first to say, on that same evening, not to get carried away, because he had weaknesses that might expose him in the Prem, i.e. he was slow and very small. Got slated at the time because of daring to post a negative after he had played well.

Bottom line DB, the players you mention, are being rated by some, IMO, above their actual abilities.

[American]

Considering that you always post negative, you're bound to get some "right."

[den]

Considering that you always post negative, you're bound to get some "right."

You're free to point out the one's that were wrong.

[DingleBaiter]

I'm not sure how Ince's mind works with regards to these young players - then again, I'm not sure PI knows how his mind works either?

So, Judgey didn't know where his future lie when Hughes shuffled off. Ince personally intervened, told the lad he was aware of his talent and he would figure on his plans, starting with pre-season. He does well, especially when there's an apparent opening in the squad when Dunny gets injured (as I understand it, they see J as more central/attacking midfielder long-term and AD as a widey), but through a combination of injury and internationals the timing isn't right.

We then get Haworth jumping in - to everyone's surprise INSTEAD of them (as you quite rightly say) and it looks for all intents and purposes J isn't going to figure in his plans (then again, Ince's only apparent consistency is his inconsistency in team selection & tactics).

Mr Judge was equally aghast at the Howarth inclusion BTW.

So, what exactly is wrong with Mr Judge do we think? Is it to do with him wanting another contract and looking elsewhere? Is it because Ince is scared due to our perilous position? Is there something we're missing, is he another silly boy like Treacy off-field? There MUST be something we're missing here; I've been a big advocate of AJ (no pun intended) if only for his general consistency, improvement & attitude last season but his lack of inclusion makes me wonder how Andrews (who's had a few off-par performances of late) is worth a place instead of him?

I just hope we can put whatever it is to bed by giving him a chance to play in the first team somehow and I'm sure he'll take his chance, but it's whether he's given it that I'd be more worried about.

Onto Treacy, IMO the lad showed improved form and consistency than I've seen for some time with him, not least with his crossing ability. However it now looks like he was playing above himself and he's reverted back to type it seems. As if a coincidence, he'd been doing his Range Rover tricks until Ince adopted Hughes' method of dealing with that malarkey. Pedersen must put something in the players tea; whenever he looks like having a challenge for his shirt, something always seems to happen to his challenger's form at the same time?

In the case of the 3 youngsters, I don't think it's a case of quality - more how they're managed - which is the age-old problem of reserves at our club it seems. I think Carlos falls into the same bracket; he could certainly do more than what he is/he has although it remains to be seen if that's a function of his failings or management. Let's see how his season pans out and re-assess in the Summer; even if he'd looked a worldie, the board probably wouldn't have sanctioned another 3 mill in Jan.

[Al]

I am coming to the conclusion that the academy is a waste of money and effort. We have never produced a decent player since Dunn and Duff and they were pre academy.

All the best talent goes to Manu and Arsenal and we are left with the rejects. You can't make a silk purse.........

[rover6]

Al, the big clubs don't always get the best young talent.

Leeds are continuing to produce excellent youngsters, despite their low position - Fabian Delph and Jermaine Beckford are the latest.

As has recently been publicised, 14 of the 23 latest England squad members developed at football league clubs.

It's interesting to read people doubting Treacy's attitude. So that makes two talented left wingers at our club who are too big for their boots. I wonder how naughty Sergio's been to not even get a look-in for the reserves.

[Al]

Al, the big clubs don't always get the best young talent.

Leeds are continuing to produce excellent youngsters, despite their low position - Fabian Delph and Jermaine Beckford are the latest.

As has recently been publicised, 14 of the 23 latest England squad members developed at football league clubs.

It's interesting to read people doubting Treacy's attitude. So that makes two talented left wingers at our club who are too big for their boots. I wonder how naughty Sergio's been to not even get a look-in for the reserves.

Which of the 14 came out of the Rovers academy? Manu pour out a constant stream of players who even if they don't get into the first team are a nice little earner in transfer fees. Arsenal buy the top youngsters and also bring them through. We just produce a few OK reserves.

Do you think we get value for money out of the academy or do you think as I do that we just supply the lower league clubs with journeymen players?

[rover6]

Most of our youngsters don't even make it in the football league - look at some of our ex-reserve stars - yes, players that were just one tier below the first team. Keith Barker - converting to cricket, apparently. Ciaran Donnelly - non-league. Darren Dunning - ?, Raffa De Vita - Livingston but has been hampered by serious injury and will probably, I think, move on. Ryan Woods - ? etc. Andreas Arestidou - non-league - or soon-to-be non-league.

The academy is not value for money. But, this is partly a nationwide problem. Our England squads are getting weaker and weaker. It will not be long before the Championship will provide a fair quantity of our England squad.

I believe that it was rare for a League One play to get an England U21 call. Now, it is not unusual.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

Joe Garner has scored for Forest. I'm assuming it's our old boy.

[Billy Castell]

Academies may work if you have the right people, coaching methods etc. I don't know if the recent changes have had any effect on the 17/18/19 year olds, but the younger kids may benefit. It is a shame we couldn't just nick all Man City's youth set up as they'll be after £20m Brazilians or that sort of player.

[JAL]

Academies may work if you have the right people, coaching methods etc. I don't know if the recent changes have had any effect on the 17/18/19 year olds, but the younger kids may benefit. It is a shame we couldn't just nick all Man City's youth set up as they'll be after £20m Brazilians or that sort of player.

Sad that we dont have ONE young kid of premiership quality very sad in fact its an absolute disgrace how on earth Downes has kept his job beggers belief.

[1864roverite]

Has anyone even remotely considered that it might just be the fault of the Academy Director and his staff ?

There are some good kids at Ewood in the youth set up.

Our failure rate is pretty high but having watched a tremendous amount of youngsters playing at the Academy and school levels we do have some talent, it is such a shame that we dont seem to be able to get them to progress further.

Maybe a change in the staff is the answer.

[JAL]

Has anyone even remotely considered that it might just be the fault of the Academy Director and his staff ?

There are some good kids at Ewood in the youth set up.

Our failure rate is pretty high but having watched a tremendous amount of youngsters playing at the Academy and school levels we do have some talent, it is such a shame that we dont seem to be able to get them to progress further.

Maybe a change in the staff is the answer.

On the contrary 1864, dont think the young lads are anywhere near good enough which asks the question, why are they here in the first place.

Historically the academy have proved season after season that they are only capable of developing players for the lower leagues anyone who is good in the academy is ONLY of championship material which is were Derbyshire, Treacy and Olsson are heading.

[den]

Surprised no one has mentioned this game.

Youth cup latest score.

[92er]

Surprised no one has mentioned this game.

Youth cup latest score.

Interesting and disappointing that the match wasn't mentioned either in the LT or Radio Lancs.

[roverfanuk]

Charlton winning 2-1, apparently a blatantly offside goal...

The more things change, the more they stay the same...

[unleaded]

6 defeats in a row!...............How come Ince is fighting for his Job whilst these jokers seem to get away and are not answerable to anyone...........WHY?............In the 6 defeats there is a 8-0 thrashing.........defeat v Stoke...........amazing..............KO`d in the FA Youth cup at the first hurdle by a Team struggling down South................Bower keeps churnning out the same old rubbish every week......Come on Mr Williams pull your finger out and sack them..........or least make them answerable............its too cushy for them.........

[JAL]

6 defeats in a row!...............How come Ince is fighting for his Job whilst these jokers seem to get away and are not answerable to anyone...........WHY?............In the 6 defeats there is a 8-0 thrashing.........defeat v Stoke...........amazing..............KO`d in the FA Youth cup at the first hurdle by a Team struggling down South................Bower keeps churnning out the same old rubbish every week......Come on Mr Williams pull your finger out and sack them..........or least make them answerable............its too cushy for them.........

Intersting that in the Telegaph on the same page has a Martin Dobson column calling for Burnley fans to cheer on their youth teams third round cup tie at home to West Brom whilst Rovers youths went out to the bottom of the championships youth team.

How quickly fortunes are changing around here.

Looks like the board at Rovers have completely lost the plot.

[DeadlyDirk]

So what do we now think of the current crop of youngsters halfway through the season.

One argument in the past seemed to be that Hughes didn't give the youth enough of a chance while since his departure we have seen a few of them get a run out in the first team which then brought up a new argument over whether or not they were good enough.

This season we've seen Olsson and Treacey feature more than years gone by along with the likes of Haworth, Marshall, Hodge and Judge making the odd appearance. Derbyshire again has made a steady number of appearances this year although no more than perhaps he had done before.

Personally I thought Olsson did okay when Warnock was in midfield but then my biggest memory so far is him being ripped apart by Lennon which suggested to me he isn't quite ready yet.

The same could go for Treacey as well really, he seems a bit more direct than Pedersen and likes to hug the flank but is no more than a player to use of the bench at the moment.

I've always been a big fan of Derbyshire but it seems if anything he has gone backwards this season, he has pace and can finish which is always handy but seems to lack technique, first touch and the ability to make the right runs off the ball. Whenever he has been used out on the right I barely remember him doing anything. Again similiar to Treacey I'm not sure he is ready to be starting a consistent amount of games. He may be still young but I think it could be a big second half of the season for him which may decide his Rovers future.

I didn't see the Sunderland game so not sure how Haworth did but gather he did okay, not enough though to earn any more appearances though I guess. Judge who played against Blyth contrary to some views I felt did okay, no worse than anyone else on the pitch, I feel he has a future here but given were in a relegation battle it may be better to send him on loan until next year.

I can't recall to many other youngsters coming through in the last few years other than Peter who seemed to find himself out of favour and has since joined Sparta Prague. The other obvious one is Gallagher who turns 25 this year, surely its time to decide on him and either start using him or sell him on, I can't see at his age he is going to learn a whole lot more from playing lower league football. Surely by now he's either good enough or he isn't.

I hear Hodge and Gunning have been doing well for the reserves, can anyone shed any more light on them?

[den]

Just a point about Derbyshire. We had a long debate on here a season or two back, when I said that in general, strikers had to be playing regularly by the time they reached 21 or 22 yrs of age, otherwise they tended not to make it at that standard. Hoots of derision, but is Matty going to make it in the Prem? I think not. If he was going to make it, he would be starting games and making an impression by now. Derbs is probably as good as he's going to get now. As was Gally at the same age.

If I'm wrong, I'll hold my hand up.

[Blueandwhitemike]

Den, I don't understand why a striker has to be good enough to play regularly in the prem by 22, sounds ridiculous to me, surely there is plenty of time for Matt to improve and make the standard. I am not overly confident of him really making it, but I think there a lot of time left for him to improve to the required standard, even Gally though time is really running out for him.

[den]

Den, I don't understand why a striker has to be good enough to play regularly in the prem by 22, sounds ridiculous to me, surely there is plenty of time for Matt to improve and make the standard. I am not overly confident of him really making it, but I think there a lot of time left for him to improve to the required standard, even Gally though time is really running out for him.

Strikers are naturally, technically gifted - something they're pretty much born with - and their game is based on instinct and skill. That's evident at an early age. They can be coached and can improve their game slightly as time goes on. Generally though, they have most of the necessary qualities as a teenager. There isn't that much for a striker to improve on apart from physical strength - which comes around the age of 21 or 22.

On the other hand, defenders don't usually have the technical qualities. Their game is based on self discipline, being able to become part of a defensive unit, being able to read a game, concentration and other disciplines gained by experience. A centre half has to know when to come out and when to stay. He has to know when to move out to cover the full back. There is so much to a defenders game that he gets better and better at with experience. It's something that was pointed out to me many years ago by someone who knew his football - and it's right. Of course there's always an exception to the rule, like Rio Ferdinand who was a very good defender at a young age. He had the technical qualities as a starter though. That gave him an advantage. Much like Mike England had.

So, if you don't see why a striker must show early, why do you say that Gally's time is running out?

[rover6]

Interesting, Den.

Firstly, I don't think you mean that strikers are born with technical skill. This is something that is acquired when a lad is learning the game. If someone develops his game by running with the ball, practicing tricks, generally mastering the ball etc. etc. he will develop technical skill (Walcott only started playing football at a ridiculously late age and he is quite technically gifted). I agree, however, that if he doesn't have the technical skill by his late teens, chances are he won't develop them - but I don't think it's impossible. If Derbyshire really wanted to develop skill, I think he could be simple and concerted practice. But footballers don't really have the time or inclination for developing technical skill once they 'graduate'. If anything, they regress. Look at Rooney, since exploding on the scene as the charging bull with the quick feet, he has increasingly displayed less technical ability and more functionality. You don't see him running with the ball much or trying daring bits of skill or shooting these days.

Further, I don't think you can write off Derbs for one very good reason:

Michael Owen.

Since losing his pace and youthful exuberance, Owen has cornered the market of scrappy sniping in the box. Yes, Owen has technical ability - but that's not his strength these days. Most of his goals are close-range clinical finishes based upon good movement and finishing/heading and not much else. Such an out-and-out goal poacher has to be mentally strong though. Owen goes through long rough patches but still comes out the other side scoring goals. Also, when the team is struggling the poacher is a emaciated creature, if not a ghost. The weedy poacher cannot hold the ball up to any effect, cannot dribble, cannot create chances, cannot drop deep and start acting the midfield toughman. In effect, he becomes a passenger in the team.

So often has Owen been a passenger in his teams. But because he can finish, he has retained his status as a decent forward. I think, if Derbs can develop mental durability to bounce back from barren spells, he too can be a Premier League poacher.