[Archived] Rovers Young Guns

[dingles staying down 4ever]

It seems to me that Rovers seem to neglect local talent in preference to non nationals, an example in the past being Irish kids. Is there any plans to expand the local scouting network to improve this. Again an example is Prof's example earlier about LiveIrpool signing four kids from Leyland. I can understand us not competing in the Inner Cities of Manchester and Liverpool. I've also heard of local kids being signed for Man City but when i've quizzed their dads, I'm told Rovers haven't even been represented at games.

I know rovers do coaching at local schools, can we not have a knock on from this and have these coaches scouting for us. I presumed this to be case beforehand but I'm not sure that is the case?

[Exiled in Toronto]

Ok this is for all those with concerns about the academy.

I am having a chat with JW (cheers Tris) and this is the main area I wish to discuss. Now I'm sure I will not be able to respond completely, as I will probably be asked not to repeat certain things. However provided it does not bend or break that trust, I would be happy to pose any questions you have and respond as I can.

I think it would be helpful for all of us if you could ask the following:

1. How does the club measure the success or not of the academy? Number of BRFC first-teamers? Number of squad player? Transfer fees received? Something else?

2. Does the club feel the academy is meeting those goals?

3. Who is ultimately accountable for the academy's performance?

4. What does it intend to do about the academy's performance going forwards?

[rover6]

I would be grateful if you inquired as to the following.

(1) Should a target not be set for the senior management to integrate at least one or two reserve players into the senior squad every season. This way, the easy route of signing a plethora of short-term stop-gaps of dubious quality is restricted and the management are forced to earn there money by developing homegrown players BOTH technically and mentally.

(2) Can anything be done to improve the standard of reserve football? The levels of competitiveness are poor, the standard of pitches bad, the majority of matches are played in the winter when the conditions are terrible. What can be done to give the reserve players a platform to genuinely develop their game, aside from being sent on loan?

[DeadlyDirk]

I would be grateful if you inquired as to the following.

(1) Should a target not be set for the senior management to integrate at least one or two reserve players into the senior squad every season. This way, the easy route of signing a plethora of short-term stop-gaps of dubious quality is restricted and the management are forced to earn there money by developing homegrown players BOTH technically and mentally.

(2) Can anything be done to improve the standard of reserve football? The levels of competitiveness are poor, the standard of pitches bad, the majority of matches are played in the winter when the conditions are terrible. What can be done to give the reserve players a platform to genuinely develop their game, aside from being sent on loan?

I like the idea and it would definitely be a positive step but ultimately they have to be good enough as well for the first team. There is no point bringing them up for the sake of it. It's a fair point though that lesser players will improve if they play with better players. Danny Simpson is a prime example, in his few appearances for Man Ure he looked alright and not out of place, when he plays for us he looks less than mediocre.

Still though I completley agree that sometimes it seems we look at bringing in foreigners and ignoring our own home grown talent. McEveley was no start in the making but he could have done just a good a job as when we brought in Berner for some reason!

Joe Garner has done alright after leaving us, probably could have been just as much of a threat as people like Kuqi and Rigters who to my knowledge still hasn't scored a goal in english football.

It's a long time ago but why did we let Shay Given go so cheaply? He left us in 97 and became an instant starter at Newcastle after a regular spell with Sunderland while Tim Flowers was 30, did we think Tim would go on forever?

I'm sure people could make a lot of other similiar comparisons.

[92er]

In the comparatively recent past, the plan was for players who were purchased would go straight into the fist team. In turn, the Academy would produce squad players. Is there any intention for the Academy to produce palyers who are good enough for the first team squad?

This has been the worst decade since the 60's for producing home grown players good enough to play regularly in the top division. What, as chairman, is Williams going to do about this disgraceful situation?

[Majiball]

All the Q's are on the list.

If you guys can think of any more on top of mine then add them into the thread.

I'll be working through the thread looking for further details.

I would however like to put together a list of all the kids who where hyped eg: Tsoumou who ultimatly failed over the last 10-15 years or so. Any help on the list would be awesome.

Tsoumou

Kovelehenin

De Vita

any others?

[rover6]

I'm not sure it's helpful to list "hyped" players because the hype can be meaningless. Keith Barker was sort of hyped because he was a goal machine at U18 level. But you can't really fault the management staff that he didn't make it because he simply was nowhere near good enough.

I think the problems of the youth system can be divided into three issues:

(a) Recruitment

(b.) U18/reserve-level Development

(c.) First-team opportunities

Arguably, the system is failing on all three counts. However, an outsider is hard pressed to comment conclusively on ( unless he knows what is going on on the training ground and in U18/reserve matches in great detail (including internal politics). However, questions can be asked as to why Juhvel Tsoumou didn't play for our reserves yet is now involved in Bundesliga matches. Or why have we signed so many goalkeepers - are we suffocating talent (eg Arestidou and Bussman) that is already at the club?

Regarding (a) Recruitment - it is obvious we are not bringing in enough talented players. The question is, is this because of the shortage of talent and Rovers are simply doing the best they can with a bad bunch. OR are Rovers not pulling out all the stops to compete?

I personally think © is an important failing - responsibility lying with the first team manager. The question being, are reserve players being overlooked at the expense of sub-standard new signings? Could we have made more use of Andy Taylor, Eddie Nolan, Sergio Peter, Raffa De Vita, Frankie Fielding instead of signing players like Bruno Berner, Maceo Rigters and Jason Brown?

[Hughesy]

Ask them why - Everton, Boro, City etc all can bring players through the ranks yet we seem unable to find the same level of player.

[Majiball]

OK "hyped" was the wrong word. We have signed several young players with impressive track records and who people thought would make the grade, who have then disappeared. The point I'm keen to push home is that everyone of them who has come in has failed, why? As you said coaching or recruitment?

Don't worry Rover6 I'm not going to walk into any situation without having done my homework, its kind of in my blood nowadays.

I believe the issues at the academy are far more widespread than just those three. I know I'm biased but I'm gob-smacked we don't have a sports scientist on staff, sprint coach, gymnastic coach, psychologist and so on.

The first team is serious business and whilst I don't disagree that the kids need games to continue developing it does not have to be here. We have several clubs in our area who we should be using to loan them out to, we should have better links with the likes of Accy, Preston, Tranmere, Blackpool et al.

Does one of the accounts people on here know how much we spend on the Academy every season?

[den]

Does one of the accounts people on here know how much we spend on the Academy every season?

It's all been discussed a million times on here. The last time I heard, which was around the time Duff went to Chelsea, the academy was costing the club £2.5m/year.

[Majiball]

It's all been discussed a million times on here. The last time I heard, which was around the time Duff went to Chelsea, the academy was costing the club £2.5m/year.

Cheers, Den.

When you consider that the likes of Bristol city, Crewe who have academies and do not have prem cash to fund them. Have club turnovers comparable to that figure it makes you wonder.

[Majiball]

Well firstly I have to say what a nice man John Williams is.

However he is incredibly good at getting you to agree to keep things in confidence.

The aim of the academy has always been to provide players for our club. They know it is an issue.

To answer a few questions:

Does the club feel the academy is meeting those goals?

NO.

3. Who is ultimately accountable for the academy's performance?

Bobby Downes is the academy manager, he is answerable to Tom Finn. The academy is separate to the first team and treated as such IE the first team manager has no responsibility for the youth system. Obviously they have input but Bobby is in charge. The model was put in place as managers don't hang around long enough and they felt more stability would be better.

4. What does it intend to do about the academy's performance going forwards?

Previous and current circumstances are hindering this they know its not performing.

(1) Should a target not be set for the senior management to integrate at least one or two reserve players into the senior squad every season. This way, the easy route of signing a plethora of short-term stop-gaps of dubious quality is restricted and the management are forced to earn there money by developing homegrown players BOTH technically and mentally.

The dream was always to have a 25 man squad 3 GK's and then two for each position. A strong first 16-17 with the rest being academy kids. However the lack of talent has forced a different approach IE older more experienced.

(2) Can anything be done to improve the standard of reserve football? The levels of competitiveness are poor, the standard of pitches bad, the majority of matches are played in the winter when the conditions are terrible. What can be done to give the reserve players a platform to genuinely develop their game, aside from being sent on loan?

It would need all the clubs to be on board, politics and all that.

If your questions not there its not because I didn't ask it, its because I can't and won't say, sorry.

As I said they know its an issue, thats a good start what happens about it depends on what happens this season. John is very confident that we will still be in this league next season. Its more than clear that Blackburn Rovers are in his heart, we are his life and he only wants whats best for us. Its a trait sadly lacking in many chairman in football and I'm pleased we have him at our helm.

[LeChuck]

Bobby Downes is the academy manager, he is answerable to Tom Finn. The academy is separate to the first team and treated as such IE the first team manager has no responsibility for the youth system. Obviously they have input but Bobby is in charge. The model was put in place as managers don't hang around long enough and they felt more stability would be better.

Completely agree with that line of thinking, but how long has Downes been in the job? It could be time to freshen things up.

Do you know how his job is monitored Majiball? What I mean by that is...is he evaluated on the success of the youth teams in the competitions they play in, or is he judged on the number of players progressing to the first team? If it's results based then that's a glaring error and just encourages the mentality of picking up the more physically developed kids rather than the ones with technical ability at an early age.

[Majiball]

Completely agree with that line of thinking, but how long has Downes been in the job? It could be time to freshen things up.

Do you know how his job is monitored Majiball? What I mean by that is...is he evaluated on the success of the youth teams in the competitions they play in, or is he judged on the number of players progressing to the first team? If it's results based then that's a glaring error and just encourages the mentality of picking up the more physically developed kids rather than the ones with technical ability at an early age.

The target is as always one a year and its not supposed to be results based. The club are working to create better bridges between the youths and first team, the reserve manager now has that job. They always aimed to have 5-6 academy products in the first team squad

We did not discuss Downes future, nor would I have.

I know a review was in progress but then Hughes left, then Ince left and now Sam has arrived and we're in the pooh. So its on hold at present, understandably.

[rover6]

Majiball, well done on taking the time to meet JW. And thanks for reporting back. It's very interesting. Undoubtedly, JW is a people's man and has Rovers at heart, I just hope that he really means to act on the youth system.

[Exiled in Toronto]

The target is as always one a year and its not supposed to be results based. The club are working to create better bridges between the youths and first team, the reserve manager now has that job. They always aimed to have 5-6 academy products in the first team squad

We did not discuss Downes future, nor would I have.

I know a review was in progress but then Hughes left, then Ince left and now Sam has arrived and we're in the pooh. So its on hold at present, understandably.

Well done for taking the initiative. I hope John Williams took on board your views on the subject. I wonder if he and Tom Finn take external advice - I can't see that they would be knowledgeable enough to challenge Downes on the specifics of how he does his job; what good looks like etc.

I for one am surprised the review is on hold. Since the Jersey tap has been turned off we need it to be fulfilling its function more than ever before; even more so if we go down.

[Ozz]

John is very confident that we will still be in this league next season.

He was very confident Paul Ince was the right man for the job at Ewood.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Why is the review on hold because the first team is under performing? I thought the academy and first team are indendent.

[Majiball]

Hughes left and the review stopped, hughes was having input. Paul came in started on the first team and was beginning to look at the youth IE areas to improve, when he left. Sams now here I'm sure his input will be asked for, However its on hold as if our income drops next year (IF) the youth budget will probably not be the same scale as now.

Until we know where we're going to be, plans cannot be laid, Sams input I assume would be required and I think he has more than enough to deal with and in reality it would only be a distraction. Once we're safe i'm sure it will start up again.

[LeChuck]

The target is as always one a year and its not supposed to be results based.

Thanks.

Even with that method there's a danger that it won't really be representative of the truth. With Derbyshire, Olsson and Treacy coming through in the last three years will the academy be appearing to do it's job on paper?

[Blueandwhitemike]

Majiball, you seem very knowledgeable on these subjects and have been fairly critical, but you have been constructive with it. Without going into specifics, were you pleased with what you heard? Are you feeling optimistic? Do you have the impression the club are going to sort out the problems and are headed in the right direction? Did you get satisfactory answers to all of your questions?

Thanks

[Majiball]

Thanks.

Even with that method there's a danger that it won't really be representative of the truth. With Derbyshire, Olsson and Treacy coming through in the last three years will the academy be appearing to do it's job on paper?

When we discussed it I said we had only produced Dunn in 10 years, no one argued. Olsson and Treacy have a lot to prove. With the review being on hold I don't believe that they consider it to be working.

Majiball, you seem very knowledgeable on these subjects and have been fairly critical, but you have been constructive with it. Without going into specifics, were you pleased with what you heard? Are you feeling optimistic? Do you have the impression the club are going to sort out the problems and are headed in the right direction? Did you get satisfactory answers to all of your questions?

Thanks

I'm pleased they know its an issue, thats a start. However its what they do next that counts.

At the end of day 1 player in ten years does not fill me with confidence, can we use this review? Who will do it? What experience does he have? Is he part of the academy/problem?

I'm still gobsmacked we don't have certain roles at the academy, Sports Science, Sprint coach and gymnastics coach should all be there as standard. Perhaps that shows how behind we are, when a club like tranmere has both and we don't you've got to wonder.

I am not convinced the academy will move forward as it is now.

Academy V's everton

[waggy]

i would like the academy to be revamped,the players should be sent to live in digs like years ago,think off the money that would save the club,tugay should be in charge,players with skill should be encouraged.£2.5 million a year for a decent player every blue moon is not good enough.

[Napoleon]

Is the problem with the quality of kids we're signing on to the academy, or what we do with them when they get there?

[Hughesy]

One of the problems to us - is our presence at lower levels.

Man United run a summer soccer school from Blackburn JJB every year, and they then scout the players while they are there. Why do THEY do that in our town???