[Archived] Rovers Young Guns

[The Prof.]

I sometimes wonder whether "coaching" is the right way. Maybe we should just let them play.

It's the unpredictability that makes a player what he is. It's my thought that "coaching" takes a lot of that away, particularly when players "make it".

The Andy Murray analogy is a good one. According to his mum he turned up for his first coaching session in the UK and they had 2 sessions without a bat, no ball and queued up for half the time waiting for the coach to toss a ball to them. Look at any junior coaching set up in training. 60% of the time is without a ball and a lot of that is queuing up! Been there! Some have realised this but even setups like Coerver often don't give them a game. It has to be enjoyable first. You can't keep being told to do the same thing better without destroying a kid confidence.

How thick are coaches in this country!

[LeChuck]

I sometimes wonder whether "coaching" is the right way. Maybe we should just let them play.

It's the unpredictability that makes a player what he is.

I'm not sure about that. Joe Cole had plenty of unpredictability about him in his early days but he was so infuriating, and no-one quite seemed to know what position he should play. It was only when Mourinho went to Chelsea and coached the silly tricks and backheels out of him that he started to become a top player. Fair enough if you've got a Messi or Ronaldo on your books, but I don't think we're going to get the quality of youngsters into the academy who will be able to shine without excellent coaching.

Besides...I don't think we're going to get the kids with a lot of 'natural' ability, any kids showing signs of that will be snapped up by the bigger clubs. I think we, possibly more than bigger clubs, have to rely on excellent coaching to get our youngsters good enough for Premier League football.

It would just be nice if we could fill squad positions currently held by people like Mokoena, Andrews, Zurab etc. None of these are exactly blessed with natural ability, we should be able to coach some of the more talented ones in the academy to that level and save ourselves a few million to put towards quality players.

[Majiball]

I sometimes wonder whether "coaching" is the right way. Maybe we should just let them play.

It's the unpredictability that makes a player what he is. It's my thought that "coaching" takes a lot of that away, particularly when players "make it".

The new method of coaching is based around this "the game is the teacher", sessions are designed to teach the subject with little input from the coach. what they do in training must be transferable to the game, but the kids figure it out for themselves, eliminating reliance on the coach. Its complicated but proven to work. The best examples are South america, Ronaldinho 35,000 hours playing football, 4,000 coaching hours so 31,000 just spent playing on the streets.

Your not far wrong with that comment.

[dave birch]

Prof, and Le C, I take your points, but I feel that coaches should be able to meld a players skill (I call it their unpredictability) into a team environment.

I think Kenny had the ability to find players with differing abilities and get them to pull the best out of each other. It's the "not knowing what he's going to do next" from the opposition, and "knowing what he's likely to do next" from his team mates that makes a good player great. (That's not well put, but I trust you get my meaning)

Two examples; Maradona, totally unpredictable, I'd bet he hardly ever trained for the full sessions each week with his team mates.

Ronaldo, though more conventional than Diego, it's hard to play against him because he does the unusual, probably the best player to put against him is someone who can just concentrate on the ball rather than the player.

[American]

The new method of coaching is based around this "the game is the teacher", sessions are designed to teach the subject with little input from the coach. what they do in training must be transferable to the game, but the kids figure it out for themselves, eliminating reliance on the coach. Its complicated but proven to work. The best examples are South america, Ronaldinho 35,000 hours playing football, 4,000 coaching hours so 31,000 just spent playing on the streets.

Your not far wrong with that comment.

Agree, and I've said it before and I'll say it again, kids are becoming too specialised too early. Playing multiple sports throughout the years help bring out different sets of skills and thought processes.

[Billy Castell]

I'm no coach, but I also think kids should play in different positions. The De Boer twins had played in every position apart from in goal, and they didn't do badly. Same for wider sports as American said. For example, a kid who plays footabll and can hit the passes is some way towards being a fly half in rugby, as they can place the ball in and area with greater ease.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I'm no coach, but I also think kids should play in different positions. The De Boer twins had played in every position apart from in goal, and they didn't do badly. Same for wider sports as American said. For example, a kid who plays footabll and can hit the passes is some way towards being a fly half in rugby, as they can place the ball in and area with greater ease.

You mean Rugby Union or " Kick and clap" as we call it. In Rugby League you've actually got to run and pass the ball, not just boot it away the first chance you get.

[JAL]

Agree, and I've said it before and I'll say it again, kids are becoming too specialised too early. Playing multiple sports throughout the years help bring out different sets of skills and thought processes.

Too true American, you only have to look at our own Ryan Nelsen to see this currently in a Rovers shirt.

Prof, and Le C, I take your points, but I feel that coaches should be able to meld a players skill (I call it their unpredictability) into a team environment.

I think Kenny had the ability to find players with differing abilities and get them to pull the best out of each other. It's the "not knowing what he's going to do next" from the opposition, and "knowing what he's likely to do next" from his team mates that makes a good player great. (That's not well put, but I trust you get my meaning)

Two examples; Maradona, totally unpredictable, I'd bet he hardly ever trained for the full sessions each week with his team mates.

Ronaldo, though more conventional than Diego, it's hard to play against him because he does the unusual, probably the best player to put against him is someone who can just concentrate on the ball rather than the player.

For every firecracker like you've mentioned Dave, you certainly need your workhorses to support such individuality, many a time many a coach doesnt have such players. This is why I go back to recruitment being so key to everything.

[CAPT KAYOS]

I'm no coach, but I also think kids should play in different positions.

Yes and no BC imo - play in different positions only if they are comfortable with it - eg it pointless playing a predominant left footer at RB for example if he is useless with his opposite foot

What is being said here is what I have been saying for years - the kids are taken on at too early an age IMO - they should be allowed to enjoy and develop in their own natural way (school /county football etc) until they are about 14-16 then guided in their strength and attitude and taken on - yep some youngsters show impressive talent at a young age but in football that can either soon disappear or be 'lost' by the youngster because of pressure to succeed.

I liken it to when managers buy players they are impressed with , then start to play them in different position and wonder why they are not getting the best from them or the players are unhappy.A player normally becomes a professional by being exceptional in a particular position - a good manager will be able to blend skill with toil and be pragmatic in his selection yet many nowadays for reasons unbeknown to me try and change palyers from why they where taken on as professional in the first place.

[Blue blood]

The new method of coaching is based around this "the game is the teacher", sessions are designed to teach the subject with little input from the coach. what they do in training must be transferable to the game, but the kids figure it out for themselves, eliminating reliance on the coach. Its complicated but proven to work. The best examples are South america, Ronaldinho 35,000 hours playing football, 4,000 coaching hours so 31,000 just spent playing on the streets.

Your not far wrong with that comment.

Does this really work that well? Until what age is this considered best?

Don't get me wrong I think lots of time to play the game and practice what you've learnt - in game conditions - is vital.

But surely in terms of learning good technique they need to be taught how to do things. (Although I guess in these cases the lads would already have it - then again the likes Kuqi suggest that might not be the case.)

Also what about those kids who are talented but greedy/lazy? If someone doesn't tell them/impress on them how important it is to track back/pass/not try and take on the whole team, they'll never have the football intelligence to make it. Should these players fall by the wayside because of a lack of intervention?

Would be interested if you had more info on this.

[American]

Yes and no BC imo - play in different positions only if they are comfortable with it - eg it pointless playing a predominant left footer at RB for example if he is useless with his opposite foot

That mentality is a part of the problem. At a young age they are more likely to get better with the opposite foot if that is done. They should be playing EVERY position on the pitch to learn the skills required. Kind of the Sun Tsu logic of learn your enemy - learn your opponents position and it will help you play yours.

[CAPT KAYOS]

That mentality is a part of the problem. At a young age they are more likely to get better with the opposite foot if that is done. They should be playing EVERY position on the pitch to learn the skills required. Kind of the Sun Tsu logic of learn your enemy - learn your opponents position and it will help you play yours.

Agree on the mentality part - honestly I have seen it in my time of playing.

Funnily enough whilst we are on the subject - I have actually played in every single position in a competive footbal match - yes I can kick with both feet - taught myself and practised at an early age

Didn't make it though.

[den]

Clubs aren't naieve enough not to realise a player has to use two feet. Even lads who were trialled by the A and B teams years ago, were played in different positions during training sessions. They do that throughout their careers at youth and reserve level.

[Billy Castell]

You mean Rugby Union or " Kick and clap" as we call it. In Rugby League you've actually got to run and pass the ball, not just boot it away the first chance you get.

I can't stand rugby league fans sometimes. They bang on about how rugby league is better, and how union is boring and yet it can be little more than 13 large men running into each other, and then bending over like they want to be bummed. It's probably linked to the whole bag of chips you northerners have with regards to people from the south and all that class nonsense. You never seen Wales when they won the grand slam? The most boring thing about rugby union is the bitter claptrap from miserable northerners whinging about players leaving league for union, public schools and so on.

[unleaded]

Rovers under 20`s lost Today V Egypts Under 20`s as part of there warm up for the under 20s World Cup coming up later this month.....

Rovers lost 2-0 Today and also got beat In the !st game 2-1..........

The stand out player was the Egyptians Young striker Mohamed Talaat(Pictured above).....he scored 3 goals in the 2 games v Rovers and is worth keeping an eye on.........Was outstanding in the 2 games......

Link to Mohamed Talat......Worth keeping an eye on........

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I can't stand rugby league fans sometimes. They bang on about how rugby league is better, and how union is boring and yet it can be little more than 13 large men running into each other, and then bending over like they want to be bummed. It's probably linked to the whole bag of chips you northerners have with regards to people from the south and all that class nonsense. You never seen Wales when they won the grand slam? The most boring thing about rugby union is the bitter claptrap from miserable northerners whinging about players leaving league for union, public schools and so on.

Oh dear Billy, does the truth hurt that much ? Sorry I mentioned it.

[DanLad]

Rovers under 20`s lost Today V Egypts Under 20`s as part of there warm up for the under 20s World Cup coming up later this month.....

Rovers lost 2-0 Today and also got beat In the !st game 2-1..........

The stand out player was the Egyptians Young striker Mohamed Talaat(Pictured above).....he scored 3 goals in the 2 games v Rovers and is worth keeping an eye on.........Was outstanding in the 2 games......

Link to Mohamed Talat......Worth keeping an eye on........

No wonder he looks good when the instructions to our full backs were to shout at their wrist watches!

[Guest benmaxwell]

No wonder he looks good when the instructions to our full backs were to shout at their wrist watches!

I was thinking: HELP!!!!!!! I HAVE GOT AN ANT ON MY HAND!?

[iamarover]

I can't stand rugby league fans sometimes. They bang on about how rugby league is better, and how union is boring and yet it can be little more than 13 large men running into each other, and then bending over like they want to be bummed. It's probably linked to the whole bag of chips you northerners have with regards to people from the south and all that class nonsense. You never seen Wales when they won the grand slam? The most boring thing about rugby union is the bitter claptrap from miserable northerners whinging about players leaving league for union, public schools and so on.

Harsh...but fair.

Rugby League? WTF? This is the Yates Wine Bar meets Wetherspoons of sport. A chain of identical looking soulless plastic imagery crassly photocopied onto a region wherein a tiny ameoba of true supporters sit. Bridgend? Catalans? Do me a favour. This is Sky Sports social engineering. Where 'franchises' are desperately imposed on bemused localities in a pathetic effort to replicate the American NFL. Salford strangely losing out to about 40 pished Welshies pretending they give a monkeys cuss about RL. Beware ...if this crap works, be sure that the 0898 premium number, Sky Premier, TV cash sucking, corporate leching, marie rose sauce sneering, sauteed sea bass-consuming 'model' of modern couch potato sport works, the Dark Lords will look to the Shire of Ewood as an irritating scab that needs to be scoured from Middle Premier League Earth. Their aim is to get their geographically balanced Bigot Brother Celtic Ranger/shopping mall horror MK Dons, carrot crunching South West, Premier League of all the 'Britishers' off the ground.

Resist. At every level. At every sport.

Billy Castell you are a prophet. I bow my head in supplication.

[Majiball]

Does this really work that well? Until what age is this considered best?

Don't get me wrong I think lots of time to play the game and practice what you've learnt - in game conditions - is vital.

But surely in terms of learning good technique they need to be taught how to do things. (Although I guess in these cases the lads would already have it - then again the likes Kuqi suggest that might not be the case.)

Also what about those kids who are talented but greedy/lazy? If someone doesn't tell them/impress on them how important it is to track back/pass/not try and take on the whole team, they'll never have the football intelligence to make it. Should these players fall by the wayside because of a lack of intervention?

Would be interested if you had more info on this.

I use it at all ages. It helps breed players who solve the problems on the pitch themselves as they will have to do in the game. The more time they tackle similiar problems the better they will get at what works and what doesn't in that situation. They learn to think for them selves from a young age and ayou carry it through all the way to adulthood.

At the end of the day all training should be done in a senario that is TRANSFERABLE to a game situation. So lets say you want to improve their touch?? if you post how you would do this I can point out good and bad points and what I would change to adapt it to this method.

If I had a player/players who where greedy on the ball then I would change the rules of the game so that they cannot be greedy, simple example limit touches. Lazy players change the rules if he doesn't track back, small sided game when you lose possesion all players must get behind the half way line if they don't and when they win it back one of their team is in advance of the line any goal they score does not count. These are just simple examples, why tell someone when you can make them do it. Do you learn better by doing or by having someone tell you once???? These type of sessions mean that at all times your players can relate what they do in training to what they do on the pitch. Game intelligence will only develop if you make them use it all the time players being trained should always have to make a desision in training and not the same one evry time IE passing a ball back and forth between two players. You need to instill traits in players that will be permant throughout their careers, words are not enough and the majority of kids will learn in this environment, but there will be exceptions as always, thats where a good coach comes in. Its not easy to do sessions take a long time to consider and require much planning especially when working to a syllabus.

Ronaldinho is a great example, do you really think that 4000 hours of coaching made him the player he is???? given he spent 31,000 hours just playing and Gremio don't turn out ronaldinho's each year, you can assume that more was down to the amount of time he spent just playing on the streets trying new tricks and playing. Now no kid in England is going to get to play 35,000 hours during their formative years as we are very different socially to Brazil. So the idea has come about (its been on the continent for over 10 years) that by training using this methodolgy and a few others you make more out of your training time and also instill an attitude in the player that means they experiment and in turn learn themselves

[pmccrover]

I've just been looking on the official site and there are profiles on this year's new intake of academy players.

Towards the end of last season it was mentioned that we had signed Oliver Nicholas, a highly rated centre half who had been at Arsenal and Man City. We are also supposed to have signed the Greek keeper Nikos Giannakopoulos. Another player I've seen mentioned is Jordan Philpott, an Irish under 17's left winger. However on the profile page there is no mention of these 3 players or of Tom Hitchcock who was rumoured to be interesting Fulham and Newcastle.

Does anyone know if these players are officially signed to Rovers or in the case of Hitchcock if they have moved elsewhere.

[deryck guyler's spoon]

I've just been looking on the official site and there are profiles on this year's new intake of academy players.

Towards the end of last season it was mentioned that we had signed Oliver Nicholas, a highly rated centre half who had been at Arsenal and Man City. We are also supposed to have signed the Greek keeper Nikos Giannakopoulos. Another player I've seen mentioned is Jordan Philpott, an Irish under 17's left winger. However on the profile page there is no mention of these 3 players or of Tom Hitchcock who was rumoured to be interesting Fulham and Newcastle.

Does anyone know if these players are officially signed to Rovers or in the case of Hitchcock if they have moved elsewhere.

Wouldn't be at all surprised if they've gone elsewhere. If I was the parent of a promising young footballer I'd want him to steer well clear of Rovers failing youth set up.

[rover6]

Bobby Downes leaves by mutual consent. Gary Bowyer taken temporary charge subject to replacement being brought in. On official website.

Despite my vociferous opinions on young player opportunities, I was never one to hound Downes simply because he was the figure-head - mainly because I did not have evidence to suggest that he was directly responsible for the major short-comings. (Although, being director, he must take some blame).

I hope this fresh start does bring improvement. But, imho, it takes more than one man to change things, it takes a change in the collective mentality, going right to the top - the players up to Allardyce and Williams.

All the best to Downes in the future.

[Hughesy]

Expected it and not suprised at all.

Finally time to move forward!

[deryck guyler's spoon]

Bobby Downes leaves by mutual consent. Gary Bowyer taken temporary charge subject to replacement being brought in. On official website.

Despite my vociferous opinions on young player opportunities, I was never one to hound Downes simply because he was the figure-head - mainly because I did not have evidence to suggest that he was directly responsible for the major short-comings. (Although, being director, he must take some blame).

I hope this fresh start does bring improvement. But, imho, it takes more than one man to change things, it takes a change in the collective mentality, going right to the top - the players up to Allardyce and Williams.

All the best to Downes in the future.

What's Steve Heighway up to these days?