[Archived] Rovers Young Guns

[Alan75]

The academies will be of no greater benefit to Blackburn Rovers if the mentality of the management doesn't chance.

If the youth players see Morten Gamst Pedersen playing like Keith Gillespie wearing his boots on the wrong feet or Aaron Mokoena jumping with all the agility of present day Bobby Robson to compete for headers, and these guys are picked game in game out, then they will consciously or subconsiously think - what the heck, I've got no chance. Keith Treacy is judged on one game but Gamst is crud every game. No sense - just prejudice.

And seeing as the reserves play once every other blue moon and when they do play, they have to invariably put up with a pitch like a pond against a bunch of neanderthals - there's little chance of anything good coming out of the system. How can you judge a player on a reserve game when there is no form or momentum to speak of. Everyone knows a successful team needs continuity, confidence and stability - the reserves have none of that because they play infrequently and the team is constantly chopping and changing.

And then there's U18 players who are deemed not to meet the standard of Gary Stopforth of Clitheroe fame - but then they leave to play for Hamburg's reserve side, having trained with their Champions League stars.

Just a total mess. There is no point having an academy. Rovers should save the money.

Correct me if Im wrong, but have you seen either the reserves or academy team play, in order to make such sweeeping statements.

[Parsonblue]

Having watched both the Reserves and the Under-18's on a regular basis, I must agree that there is something wrong with the system. I have long since given up trying to understand the logic of what goes on at the Academy. For the past few seasons the quality of the football has been awful - far too much long ball and hit and hope about the tactics employed.

We have had some promising players - Keita I feel was one of them - but somehow we don't seem to be able to develop them. We seem to have far too many players at the Academy with the result that some just don't play enough football. We seem to have opted for quantity rather than quality.

The reserve team are handicapped by the system that sees them restricted to just 18 League games. I'm not suggesting a return to the old Central League of 42 League games, but the present system has resulted in the club having to play endless 'behind closed doors' friendlies.

The fact that clubs only field youngsters in reserve matches means that the lads are often up against the same players that they have played against at U16 and U18 level and probably at early levels as well. In days gone by, youngsters would come up against senior pros, often internationals, who were not in the first team. They learnt their craft on the field against opponents who were more experienced. Thus the jump from reserve football to senior football was not as great as it is now.

I honestly don't believe that we have players in the reserves, with the exception of Nielsen and Olsson - and possibly Treacy, who will be good enough for the Premiership.

For me, the development of the young players at the Academy and in the Reserves should be the main priority at the club. It's far more important than not making signings in the January window or waiting in hope of a takeover. Jack Walker provided the club with wonderful facilities and I really don't believe we have made the best use of them.

[1864roverite]

They have just beaten Manure reserves away from home so they must be doing something right.

[JAL]

They have just beaten Manure reserves away from home so they must be doing something right.

Yes, but i think you should take parsonblue and rover6 views very seriously it is a major concern.

[Dunnfc]

Ive just posted my view on the acadamy and other english acadmies in Nickos, would it be suitable for this thread?

[Dunnfc]

Here it is:

My story and opinion on acadamies is (prepered to be bored but its only my opinion so i accept that it may be alload of poop)

Its the luck of the draw on who you get man utd will never get the nevilles or beckham coming through for a while but what does appear a concern is that the is 8 prem clubs in the north west but all the good young stars are coming through at City who have one of the worst acadamy facilities if you look at Chedwyn Evans,Dan Sturridge,Nedum Onhua,Ishmael Miller,Micah Richards how are they all coming through at city and not being picked up by anyone else in the area?

I personally believe we had something special in Pezzoni and Keita but both have returned home after falling out with management and its a shame to hear that because both are in the new teams first squads which is good news but why wernt/arnt they in the Rovers squad? Is it a breakdown in communication? Are they not progressing enough or what we expect them to progress at? I keep my fingers crossed for young Hoillet in the future because that guy is going to something weather a prem player or a german 3rd division player he will be something.

Liverpool have an agreement with Ghanian club AshantiGold which allows them to get first dabs on young Ghanians and gives them a foothold in Ghana which is quality seeming as though many come over in the summer to be looked at by Liverpool. Arsenal and Charlton have an agreement with Ivory coastian side ASEC who have produced half of the national team including the likes of the Toure brothers,Eboue,Boka,Romaric etc this agreement allows them to get over hot ivorian prospects and train them up at there acadamies and bring them through such as the case of Baky Sare (sp) who is with Charlton now but on loan at the belgium club Germinal. The is a club in the belgium second division called Beveren who imported over half there squad once from the ivory coast and from an acadamy called jmg acadamirie which was set up and ran by french legend Jean Marc Guillou. Anyways Beveren featured 10 young ivorians in a cup final and made a significant amount of profit by selling these prosepects on most notably Eboue to Arsenal and Romaric to Le Mans. This descion from Beveren to set up this link with the acadamy proved to be sucessful and benifited many european teams who bought Beveren players and the Ivory Coast national team. Now why can't we do something similar? weve started to see Liverpool,Charlton set up the links why cant we set up one? We could find the next gems by doing this and as Desially put it as african football is not a joke we may not have the best facilitles but we have something you cant buy and thats togetherness and people playing with passion. which i think summed up whats missing with many english clubs acadamies.

Imo not enough money and time is spent by the teams in the premier league on the acadamies and the clubs arnt making a consusess effort to check to see if the acadamy is working fine, in our case im lead to believe its not. Our national team has begun to suffer because clubs are too busy buying cheap foreign talent or are buying squad fillers i.e berner and this is harming us because its not the same watching a team of foreginers who play for just money then watching some home grown players who have been on the terraces and grown up to notice how much playing for this clubs means to the fans.

Scotland have been an excellent example to show us how much the game has suffered and how it can be rebuilt and how acadamies can work and how we can change because about 5 years ago the Spl was flooded with cheap foregin past it players or players who didnt have as much ability to make the spl a hit and clubs were plunging into debt to buy players who wernt nesessierly better than what they had but many spl clubs got there act together and put a great structure in place and this has began to pay dividends because if you look at Hibs theyve had Thomson,Whittilker,Fletcher,Brown,Oconnor,Riordan come through and fair enough most have been sold but the money recieved has helped Hibs but the players were given a chance something which isnt happening with most english clubs who are obsessed with money.

We all laughed at Scotland drawing to Faroe islands with Dickov and Dailly etc playing but now that the SPL is brimming with sheer quality youth and brilliantly run acadamies is it a wonder how the Scotland national team is playing so well with there new disccovered blood in the team.

Sorry if i sent you to sleep but im stating to feel really strong about this issue.

[JAL]

When i watched Pezzoni the tall German lad, never for one minute did i think hed be good enough for Rovers first team for me he was far too slow.

I'm sure there is plenty of time and money being invested into the academy but it doesnt seem to be working probably as Dunnfc points out maybe Scotland can show us the way.

Having watched Cameroon play in the african nations cup personally apart fro Eto'o i wouldnt want any of the others playing for Rovers the looked a bit junior agogo ish

[LeftWinger]

Alan Judge's goal tonight was a bit spesh. From what I saw of the game though (watched the last half an hour on MUTV), there didn't look anyone who really stood out like a Duff. Jamie Clarke took his goal well too, but Judges was a 35 yard dipping strike into the top corner.

[FourLaneBlue]

After all that's been debated, he still comes back to the argument that the lads are good enough and the academy staff should be sacked.

Whereas your point is that the Academy is not producing yet nothing should ever be changed about the place as it won´t make any difference?

[Silencio]

Alan Judge's goal tonight was a bit spesh. From what I saw of the game though (watched the last half an hour on MUTV), there didn't look anyone who really stood out like a Duff. Jamie Clarke took his goal well too, but Judges was a 35 yard dipping strike into the top corner.

We should only expect a Duff to come along once in a blue moon. What we should expect is for 1 or 2 young lads coming through as REGULAR squad players every couple of seasons and progressing into 1st team players or sold on for decent money. (ie not 140,000 like with Garner.)

[den]

Whereas your point is that the Academy is not producing yet nothing should ever be changed about the place as it won´t make any difference?

You wont find me saying that anywhere FLB. If you think that's what I've been saying, you're completely misunderstanding me.

Do I take it that you back Rover6 on this, i.e., the lads coming through ARE good enough, but the academy staff aren't?

[herbergeehh]

Apparently, we are now signing part-time-plumbers for the future.

[roversmum]

Very astute, that. Plumbers are expensive these days.

Why not give him a try if he has a talent?

My step-son was alleged to be better than Joe Cole when they played together as youngsters. Unfortunately an unlucky broken wrist prevented him from trialling for Arsenal and it was never followed up. He's now doing well in the Fire Brigade but Mr R and I still think it's a shame. There must be others like him who have the talent and missed their chance.

[Sparky Marky]

Once upon a time, I think kids did fall through the net....but not nowadays..,..each club has significently higher numbers of scouts than ever before......

[rover6]

You wont find me saying that anywhere FLB. If you think that's what I've been saying, you're completely misunderstanding me.

Do I take it that you back Rover6 on this, i.e., the lads coming through ARE good enough, but the academy staff aren't?

If some of the lads were given real chances they might show that they can be of use. That's not to say they'd be stars or even first team regulars but surely we don't have to import crud like Mokoena and Bruno Berner to back up the squad.

The biggest problem, imo, is not the academy staff (although it sounds from the outside like a shake-up is in order) but the mentality of the senior management. This mentality sees it as a safer bet to sign and play 'experienced' 'fresh off the shelf' crud as back up (Berner) than play a youngster fettered by nerves and inexperience (WHO NEEDS CHANCES TO OVERCOME THE NERVES AND HENCE BECOME EXPERIENCED).

Imo, the academy and reserve scene would be partly revitilised if the guys were seeing promise rewarded with opportunity. Instead, we are seeing mediocrity and worse (Gamst, Mokoena, Berner and others) rewarded. Why on earth play Matt Derbyshire right wing when he has almost no attributes barring his pace making him worthy of the position. ANSWER: He is experienced and the next right wingers available, Alan Judge, is not. Judge may not be ready for first team footy but nor is Derbyshire as a winger but at least Judge can play right mid.

[Blackburn Ender]

But we have regularly sent out youngsters on loan to lower division clubs for experience and they have not especially set the world alight, have they?

They are not returning with 30+ 1st team games under their belt demanding a 1st team place back at Rovers.

Mostly, they go back into the reserves, back out on loan or are sold/let go.

Surely, Hughes must be desperate for a couple of them to prove themselves worthy of a 1st team spot?

[FourLaneBlue]

You wont find me saying that anywhere FLB. If you think that's what I've been saying, you're completely misunderstanding me.

Do I take it that you back Rover6 on this, i.e., the lads coming through ARE good enough, but the academy staff aren't?

By looking at all that matters - results of kids coming through and their quality - I don´t think either are good enough and haven´t been for a long time.

Maybe you could clarify your position then den...as other than mentioning scouting you just seem to criticse the place (and academies in general) yet also resist calls for change.

Many tales coming out about the Academy may well be bitter but they have been coming out for too long for there not to be a suspicion that not all has been right there. That comes from some people whose opinion on Rovers I generally trust...I´m not just talking about claptrap sprouted on here which could well be balderdash.

This doesn´t mean I advocate just sacking all the staff....but it is pretty obvious some kind of shake-up is worth a try. The Academy has failed to produce any good players for the best part of a decade. All the good prospects coming through....Damien Johnson, Martin taylor, Broomes etc were in the 90s.

For the money we are spending it hasn´t been good enough. We may as well write it off if we have no new approaches to try as all it is is a loss-maker yearly at present.

I don´t agree with rover6 regarding the quality of those coming through otherwise we would have some doing well at other clubs and I cannot think of any doing too well above League One...then again if we had played Keith Treacy every game this season rather than MGP the team would have probably benefitted such has been the form of MGP this season. Doesn´t mean that Treacy is good enough...then again neither are the likes of Berner or MGP at the moment. If we are going to have blindingly average players in the squad we might as well bring them through than waste millions buying them.

[Dunnfc]

Every player has talent but players have more than others its wheather you can achieve your potencial. To achieve your potencial you have to listen and train with the best, be coached by neerly the best and most important of all play games.

Tracey has got talent and hes got a fair bit but he needs to play more games and imo we should have sent him to brugge or a championship team the same with Kane too.

Employ me,Spunner,Rover6 as acadamy gaffers and well sort it out lol.

[den]

Maybe you could clarify your position then den...as other than mentioning scouting you just seem to criticse the place (and academies in general) yet also resist calls for change.

I don't know where you get those assumptions.

Give the academy the right kids and they will produce lads for the first team.

[philipl]

There is a huge step up from Academy to being as good as "crud like Mokoena and Berner".

[Paul Mellelieu]

Bugger me he's back.

You want the young players to be "given a chance" even though it's likely that they won't become "first team regulars." Work that one out. You mention Berner, Gamst and Mokoena as evidence that poor players are promoted above youth, because Hughes and co have a "mentality" of paying for players when they could use these youth players.

Really you couldn't make this up. Gamst, for most part has been good signing for the club, and Mokoena "does a job". I've only seen Berner play once or twice at left back, and seemed OK, no worse that the sightings of the youth players.

It is no doubt disappointing that we haven't had much through the youth setup recently, but take a look across the premiership, and with one or two exceptions, that's the general pattern. Williams, Hughes and co are serious professional people, not amateurs playing at it, and will know about problems that exist.

Maybe we could do things better: there's some evidence that we could, and we should take seriously the views of people who watch the youth teams and know about football. The rest is just stupid self seeking hot air.

[LeChuck]

Here's a small snippet of Messi talking about Barcelona's academy:

"As a kid they teach you not to play to win, but to grow in ability as a player.

"At Barca, we trained every day with the ball, I hardly ever ran without a ball at my feet. It was a form of training aimed very clearly at developing your skills."

I'm sure our academy's mentality is far from that as possible. To be fair, it's probably not just our academy, but virtually a nationwide thing. Why do we give a toss if our 13 year olds are winning games? There's nothing more frustrating or cringe worthy than hearing an adult scream "GET RID OF IT!" at a youth match.

[rover6]

Bugger me he's back.

You want the young players to be "given a chance" even though it's likely that they won't become "first team regulars." Work that one out. You mention Berner, Gamst and Mokoena as evidence that poor players are promoted above youth, because Hughes and co have a "mentality" of paying for players when they could use these youth players.

You are the most embarrassing flat earthist on this messageboard. Sure, there are people who vehemently disagree with me but they actually come up with reasoned arguments and they are not afraid, occasionally, to find fault with the club. However, you hold to this dogma that EVERYTHING that happens at Blackburn Rovers is perfect.

As for giving someone a chance even though they may not become first team regulars. Take Jay McEveley. Wasn't great but did a job and we got some decent money for him. Jon Stead was not a academy graduate but again, he was not star material but he did what we needed him to do and he moved on for money. Young talent, of dubious standard, has value, generally - especially if they carry experience. Give them a chance, make use of their talent and if they don't represent the long-term future of the club, sell them on.

What money can we expect to receive for Berner or Mokoena?

LeChuck, I agree with you BTW. There is this macho obsession with winning games.

[Paul Mellelieu]

You are the most embarrassing flat earthist on this messageboard. NOT SURE WHAT THAT MEANS. PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE WORDS ACTUALLY MEAN.

Sure, there are people who vehemently disagree with me but they actually come up with reasoned arguments and they are not afraid, occasionally, to find fault with the club. REASON AIN'T YOUR STRONG POINT. HYSTERIA AND HALF TRUTHS WOULD SEE YOU WITH AT LEAST AN O LEVEL.

However, you hold to this dogma that EVERYTHING that happens at Blackburn Rovers is perfect. NOT TRUE. AT ALL. I DON'T WANT TO LABOUR THE POINT BUT I SEE ABOUT 25 MATCHES A YEAR, LIVE. WHICH IS 25 MORE THAN YOU DO, AS FAR AS I UNDERSTAND. I KNOW WHEN HUGHES HAS GOT THINGS WRONG, I KNOW WHEN THE CLUB MAKES MISTAKES. I SAY SO. I DO NOT BEHAVE LIKE THE WORLD IS ABOUT TO END, OR ACCUSE HUGHES AND HIS STAFF OF BEING BLIND TO THE FRUITS OF THE YOUTH SYSTEM OR POST STORIES ABOUT THE YOUTH SET UP THAT NOONE ELSE ON THE BOARD KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT (GOD KNOWS HOW YOU HAVE THIS INSIDE DOPE (CARE TO SHARE THAT WITH US?).... I COULD GO ON.

ANYWAY... IN COMPARISON TO WHERE THE CLUB COULD BE (HAVE A LOOK A THE LEAGUES BELOW US) THINGS ARE PRETTY PERFECT AT EP. READ THE QUOTES FROM SAVAGE, FROM JACK STRAW, FIND OUT ABOUT THE TOWN. IT'S A BLOODY MIRACLE, WE'RE COMPETING. BUT THERE ARE REAL DANGERS OF COURSE, SO RIGHT NOW ROVERS FANS SHOULD THNAK THEIR LUCKY STARS.

As for giving someone a chance even though they may not become first team regulars. Take Jay McEveley. Wasn't great but did a job and we got some decent money for him. AND YOUR POINT IS?

Jon Stead was not a academy graduate but again, he was not star material but he did what we needed him to do and he moved on for money. Young talent, of dubious standard, has value, generally - especially if they carry experience. Give them a chance, make use of their talent and if they don't represent the long-term future of the club, sell them on. CHANGED YOUR TUNE HERE. YOU HAVE BEEN AS FAR AS I CAN REMEMBER YOU BEEN SHOUTING OUT LOUD FOR THE YOUTH PLAYERS TO BE FAST TRACKED INTO THE FIRST TEAM. BTW SEEN EITHER OF THESE LADS RECENTLY?

What money can we expect to receive for Berner or Mokoena? AND YOU POINT IS, AGAIN?

LeChuck, I agree with you BTW. There is this macho obsession with winning games. MUMS DO IT TOO I'M AFRAID.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Well I see about 30 games on TV and a couple of games live each year, so I don't know if that qualifies me to have an opinion. But then I have seen well over 1,000 Rovers games in the flesh in my time.

It makes no sense for Rovers, with one of the lowest incomes in the league, not to have a higher than average productivity from its academy. We are the worst-placed club to have to replace players by buying them, as we saw this January.

I know that it's difficult to find and grow our own but every player we buy was developed and given a first team chance somewhere - they don't just grow on trees. And I don't buy the argument that we can't attract good ones because we are small and crap. Some of Man City's crop will have signed for them when they were floundering in the lower divisions.

Strategically, the academy, or another version of developing players, has to be made to work for us and all the evidence seems to suggest that the man accountable - Bobby Downes - hasn't delivered.