[Archived] Among The Thugs

[Texan Rover]

I just finished Bill Buford's 1991 book Among the Thugs. Buford is an American who lived in England for over a decade. While there, he was bewildered by the behavior of football supporters, the "firms," hooliganism, and football culture in general -- Among the Thugs is the result of his decision to learn more about the subject by getting close to some of those whose behavior he couldn't understand.

I'm curious if anyone else on the messageboard has read this book, and if you can shed any light for me on how different matchday atmosphere is today. I've never attended a Rovers match or any other Premiership match, for that matter. My experiences with football supporters come from America, where such things as what's described are completely foreign in ANY sport, and Eastern Europe, where that sort of "fan" behavior is totally commonplace. So how much of what is described still goes on today? How much firm-on-firm violence still happens on matchdays? Have the changes in stadium regulations -- notably the removal of the terraces and standing room -- had a dramatically positive impact, or did people simply get to the point where they refused to tolerate the idea of widespread injury and even death at a football match?

I guess this topic is particularly prescient with recent events in Italy. I know Hillsbrough and Heysel have been discussed on this board in the past, but I'm curious specifically about thoughts on the Buford book and the specific behaviors described therein.

[American Rover12]

Think I'll pick this up at the library, sounds real interesting.

[RoversFanUSA]

i think ima have to join u in that idea.

[American Rover12]

Picked it up today, surprised they had it. Will start it soon

[DanLad]

I've not read the book, but I presume it's a description of gang warfare and open fighting on the terraces?

I've never seen a fight at a footy game (except seeing a couple of Bolton fans get smacked in the Riverside for running around at the front with a flag!) or before/after a game, either.

[Ben-2000]

I've seen a few 'battles' outside the Reebok over the last few years.

[Paul]

and if you can shed any light for me on how different matchday atmosphere is today.

I've only experienced real football violence once and that was back in 1972, it was enough to put me off going to a live game for around 5-6 years. I've never experienced any threat or intimidation at Ewood or in the area around the ground

For me the major change we've seen in the past 10-15 years is one can relax while walking to any ground. I can remember in the 90s, for away games, making sure we didn't make ourselves obvious targets by wearing scarves etc but I'd say that concern has disappeared completley.

[DanLad]

I've seen a few 'battles' outside the Reebok over the last few years.

Now you mention it I've seen trouble at the Reebok, too...

[Mr Maureen]

I just finished Bill Buford's 1991 book Among the Thugs. Buford is an American who lived in England for over a decade. While there, he was bewildered by the behavior of football supporters, the "firms," hooliganism, and football culture in general -- Among the Thugs is the result of his decision to learn more about the subject by getting close to some of those whose behavior he couldn't understand.

I'm curious if anyone else on the messageboard has read this book, and if you can shed any light for me on how different matchday atmosphere is today. I've never attended a Rovers match or any other Premiership match, for that matter. My experiences with football supporters come from America, where such things as what's described are completely foreign in ANY sport, and Eastern Europe, where that sort of "fan" behavior is totally commonplace. So how much of what is described still goes on today? How much firm-on-firm violence still happens on matchdays? Have the changes in stadium regulations -- notably the removal of the terraces and standing room -- had a dramatically positive impact, or did people simply get to the point where they refused to tolerate the idea of widespread injury and even death at a football match?

I guess this topic is particularly prescient with recent events in Italy. I know Hillsbrough and Heysel have been discussed on this board in the past, but I'm curious specifically about thoughts on the Buford book and the specific behaviors described therein.

Apologies for the pretence naive replies from the other posters Texan,Paul in particular are you real?

Go to www.terracelinks.cjb.net

All the info you need.

[seahawkdad]

I've not read the book, but I presume it's a description of gang warfare and open fighting on the terraces?

I've never seen a fight at a footy game (except seeing a couple of Bolton fans get smacked in the Riverside for running around at the front with a flag!) or before/after a game, either.

I've seen excerpts...it's not just about that. I remember one section where he was packed in the terraces and the guy behind him hadn't, apparently, wanted to miss any of the match. So what the writer felt was this suddenly warm, wet sensation spreading down his back.

Lovely.

I've seen about five fights, all in one match. DC United had released a player from El Salvador, so some Salvadorians started coming to games with the intent of causing trouble. Those fights all took place on one night...in the stands.

That was very much out of the ordinary for the US. Sort of the thing one might expect if one wore the wrong team colors to a Philadelphia Eagles gridiron game , but not at a US football match.

Generally we are much more reserved...

and would never think of drinking or standing during a match...

Should anyone be interested in what is developing as the football culture of the US, you can check out these pictures.

[Paul]

Paul in particular are you real?

Woild you mind explaining that remark please? Texan asked about people's experiences:

and if you can shed any light for me on how different matchday atmosphere is today.

I gave him my experience. In 1972 I was at White Hart Lane when Spurs played Liverpool in the second leg of what is now the UEFA cup. The violence inside and outside the ground was such I didn't go to another game for about 5-6 years, perhaps longer. It was the policeman who on being asked for a safe route out of the ground replied there wasn't one and the guy layed in a shop doorway with a knife in his thigh which convinced me. In the 80s / early 90s if I went to an away game I would always be careful to park well clear of the ground, not have any identifiable stuff in or on the car and would make sure I didn't wear anything that identified me as a Rovers fan. Over the last 10 years or more I've come to worry less about it, in fact I'm very hapy to be seen as an away fan on the odd occassion I go. So for me the atmosphere has changed from one where I would avoid being identified as a fan to one where I'm very comfortable to do so. Seems to me this is valid experience, and I see no reason why you should comment as you did.

I know football violence exists but my experience shows it is/was simple to avoid and the atmosphere around grounds has improved enormously in the last 10-15 years. Would it be more acceptable if I made up tales of violence?

[seahawkdad]

And in August I had a perfectly delightful experience at Lincoln City's home opener. The fans of the visiting team drove into the area around the grounds seeking parking, had their own section alongside the Red Imps fans in the same stands and it was as relaxed and natural as you'd expect.

They're down there in the lower far corner of the stand...

Granted it was league two, but I have the distinct impression that England have done a great job of making football an enjoyable experience...well, at least for the winners. No one likes to lose.

[Alan75]

The big difference between Buford's experiences and the average fan, was that he went looking for violence travelling the country with Man U supporters and attending NF meetings. He even admits "I had not expected the violence to be so pleasureable...."

I'm not sticking my head in the sand, violence did occur, and you had to live by your wits to avoid it, planned your routes, avoided group travel, did not wear colours, did not walk to Mill Hill Station etc. If you kept a low profile 99% of the time the average law abiding fan could avoid it.

Fortunately, it's a much more pleasurable and safe to attend games these days, although I wouldnt recommend leaving a kit replica or Rovers sticker in your car in Burnley.

[Lathund]

In Sweden it's usually calm at the actual games. Some games are worse than others (IFK-AIK and the Stockholm derbies mainly), and Hammarby fans seem to like throwing things onto the pitch. What's very much alive still though are the firms, at least with certain teams. Luckily they usually arrange their fights elsewhere, and not at the games so one can feel safe when attending games here. Still got a bigger hooligan problem here than in England, and I'd imagine Spain/Germany as well, but not close to England in the 70s/80s or even eastern Europe/Argentina etc.

[colin]

I read "Amongst The Thugs" a few years ago.

It was an interesting read about a small section of society that attends football matches. He homed in on them and lived with them, and it made a half decent read about some morons who represent a very small percentage of football supporters. It's basically a tabloid article made into a book.

I've got nothing against Bill Buford, but if he had written about the same percentage of the population who try to grow giant leeks then the book would have fallen flat on its bum.

[bob fleming]

I've got nothing against Bill Buford, but if he had written about the same percentage of the population who try to grow giant leeks then the book would have fallen flat on its bum.

Oh I don't know. He could have gone along with them at first, you know, pretended to be interested in growing giant leeks, reading up on them and copying the giant leek growers ways, buying their clothes, attending the same functions (Giant Leek Growing functions probably) just to find out what makes them tick and write an article in a Sunday magazine or something or other.

Then when he realised he had become accepted by these strange people he wants out of this sordid gardnening underworld but realises he is in too deep. Slowly, over the course of a few years, he has become obsessed with growing giants leeks, winning the Annual Giant Leek Competition is all that matters. His wife leaves him and takes the kids, he loses his job and eventually his house. Eventually he starts growing giant marrows and cucumbers as well.

It all comes to a sad, predictable, end when they find Bill Buford crushed to death in his own allotment by one of his own giant leeks that fell from somewhere or other onto his stupid head. Found by his estranged son, "Little Johnny" Bill eventually triumphs when LJ enters the very same leek, that was responsible for crushing his skull flat, into the Annual Giant Leek Competition and, of course, he posthumously wins.

Actually Colin, your right, that would have been a crap story.

[DanLad]

Oh I don't know. He could have gone along with them at first, you know, pretended to be interested in growing giant leeks, reading up on them and copying the giant leek growers ways, buying their clothes, attending the same functions (Giant Leek Growing functions probably) just to find out what makes them tick and write an article in a Sunday magazine or something or other.

Then when he realised he had become accepted by these strange people he wants out of this sordid gardnening underworld but realises he is in too deep. Slowly, over the course of a few years, he has become obsessed with growing giants leeks, winning the Annual Giant Leek Competition is all that matters. His wife leaves him and takes the kids, he loses his job and eventually his house. Eventually he starts growing giant marrows and cucumbers as well.

It all comes to a sad, predictable, end when they find Bill Buford crushed to death in his own allotment by one of his own giant leeks that fell from somewhere or other onto his stupid head. Found by his estranged son, "Little Johnny" Bill eventually triumphs when LJ enters the very same leek, that was responsible for crushing his skull flat, into the Annual Giant Leek Competition and, of course, he posthumously wins.

Actually Colin, your right, that would have been a crap story.

Bur for some reason I still had to read it until the end...!

Will LJ take up leek growing himself for the sequel?

[bob fleming]

Will LJ take up leek growing himself for the sequel?

No, left bitter and twisted by his fathers untimely death Little Johnny will join the ICF.

[McClarky]

I read this book years ago and can't remember it being that good. On saying that the general standard of books about footie violence are really poor, usually written by morons who are just trying to gain cudos.

My main memories of the late 70s and 80s were of a threat of violence on the terraces. When we played any decent sized team (Leeds, Newcastle, Sheff Wed etc..) there would be a few of their boys in the BBE at the front. At some point there would be a scrap with the away fans usually being expelled, it was part of the entertainment. Looking back now it is hard to believe the levels of anti-social behaviour that were considered acceptable in those days but with terrace culture it wasn't really questioned. Who remembers the guy who used to tie the burning Burnley scarf to the top of the BBE each week and when the police came in when we would all sing "Who's that **** with a *** on his head" at them. All us youngsters used to stand at the back of the crowd shouting "You're gonna get your ******* heads kicked in" without any intention of doing the kicking in at all, if it came to it we would all be more likely to leg it. Most people of my generation hanker back to this "golden era" and yet there were so many things which just couldn't go on now. It was great at the time though.