[Archived] Yesterday I Went Down The Range

[Damage]

Architecturally and aesthetically speaking , disregarding any religious views of the observer , they are IMHO , the highest peak of artistic human achievement and make a mockery of the self regarding views of today's atheists that nothing good comes out of religious conviction and faith .

So, some nice buildings is adequate compensation for millions of deaths? Centuries of persecution and oppression?

The nazis built some interesting stuff and good motorways but I hardly think its a justification of nazism? There are some great opulent palaces around europe but that didnt help the poor! How many people died just so "the church" could build these monstrous edifices to its own "majesty"? How much suffering could be ended with the wealth of the vatican?

[Beta Ray Bill]

A very sad outlook on the area, as there is very little remaining of the original town.

I know, that little way station the Roman's set up a couple of 1000 of years ago really is in danger of being lost. And don't get me started on the market from 567! The things you could buy at ol' Ethelberts stall were incredible. The town is being ruined.

[Guest Dik Bleek]

Like I said sad!

[Bing]

So, some nice buildings is adequate compensation for millions of deaths? Centuries of persecution and oppression?

Daft immature view.

All religion in war is, is an imperative or a justification to seize land, resources and thus power. Very few people truly go to war over religious disagreements.

[Damage]

Daft immature view.

All religion in war is, is an imperative or a justification to seize land, resources and thus power. Very few people truly go to war over religious disagreements.

Really!? I am immature?

You would say that the crusades were really about control of reosurces! Some crusaders may have used the escapade to grab themselves a bit of land, but dont for a second tell me that the inspiration wasnt religion. The majority of conflict has always had religion as its inspiration - throughout history and even today the majority of conflict is directly caused by religion - just look at israel/palestine; 9/11 and the war on terror; troubles in kashmir; etc etc. Yes the "outcome" may mean that one set of people gains land and resources but the very reason they fight for the land/resources is because they have a different religion to the other side. Your denial makes you look foolish!

[blue phil]

Damage ; you could abolish religion tomorrow , brainwash every person on the planet into believing that deities have never existed ........but the conflicts over land and resources would continue unabated .

The reason being , of course , because of the inate human conditions of ambition and desire for dominance and self preservation .

Whether these conditions are God given or a product of Darwinism is largely irrelevant ...they exist and always will do . Religions like political ideologies can be a force for both good and evil .

[thenodrog]

This might be rubbish but I think I read somewhere that the crusades were the result of ambitious and very wealthy Venetian merchants who resented Saladins islamic armies restricting their trading and decided to unite the free world against him with religion being the blue touch paper as it were. Anyway Damage if thats kosher then that would put that angle of your argument nicely to bed.

[Flopsy]

Theno I think it was partially the reason, If i remember rightly the Venetians helped fund the crusades, probably so their trading interests were protected.

[colin]

Would you believe that I agree with everything you just said.

Me too.

However I think you have got to put into perspective the reasons why a lot of churches look really good compared to the buildings around them. When they were built they were the centre of society, and the church had all the money. They were purposely built to be inspiring. (sorry about the half-pun there) Even the little local church just around the corner here makes all of our houses look like shacks. It doesn't mean that it's worth preserving for its archetectural or historical value if it falls into disuse.

The same thing about prestige and money applies to a number of municipal buildings. The ethos at the time was to build them impressive - there are a number of north west town halls which fit the bill here: Rochdale, Bolton & Manchester spring to mind.

In a similar vein, many old commercial buildings in Manchester (which is where I live) are completely over the top when it comes to functionality. They were built to display the wealth and influence of the owners. Banks especially.

Nowadays nobody builds to impress or show off how tasteful or educated they are. The Trafford Centre is simply a money- making machine for Peel Holdings and it's a hideous eyesore which (hopefully) will never be repeated. Everything about it is geared to taking money. (Bah humbug.)

I suppose the thing about architectural heritage is it's a bit like wedding photos. 20 years on and you laugh like a hyena. 120 years on and its to be treasured.

In Stockport, one of the best loved features is the railway viaduct which straddles the steep Mersey Valley and cuts right through the town. It's lit at night and it's part of the town's heritage. If it wasn't there today and someone proposed to build it, there would be outrage.

[Damage]

Damage ; you could abolish religion tomorrow , brainwash every person on the planet into believing that deities have never existed

The only brainwashing that goes on is the indoctrination of children into religious belief. The natural condition is ignorance of the concept of deities.

........but the conflicts over land and resources would continue unabated .

cant agree with that - as stated in an earlier post, religion is the fuel of many a conflict. without religious beliefs many conflicts would not have the fuel to keep the fires burining

The reason being , of course , because of the inate human conditions of ambition and desire for dominance and self preservation .

Whether these conditions are God given or a product of Darwinism is largely irrelevant ...they exist and always will do . Religions like political ideologies can be a force for both good and evil .

errm please can you give me examples of religion being a force for "good"?

[Damage]

This might be rubbish but I think I read somewhere that the crusades were the result of ambitious and very wealthy Venetian merchants who resented Saladins islamic armies restricting their trading and decided to unite the free world against him with religion being the blue touch paper as it were. Anyway Damage if thats kosher then that would put that angle of your argument nicely to bed.

Some quick research will show that saladin was actually in the third crusade. Far from funding the crusade, the Venetians sought to make a profit from renting ships and stuff.

The crusade would not have happended without religion to stoke the fires.

[thenodrog]

Some quick research will show that saladin was actually in the third crusade. Far from funding the crusade, the Venetians sought to make a profit from renting ships and stuff.

The crusade would not have happended without religion to stoke the fires.

So six of one then...... ?

[thenodrog]

Nowadays nobody builds to impress or show off how tasteful or educated they are. The Trafford Centre is simply a money- making machine for Peel Holdings and it's a hideous eyesore which (hopefully) will never be repeated. Everything about it is geared to taking money. (Bah humbug.)

Make great venue for next years Labour Party conference then!

[Paul]

Make great venue for next years Labour Party conference then!

........but it already has planning permission

[Damage]

So six of one then...... ?

no - religious fervour was the cause. take it away (on both sides) and the crusades wouldnt have happened

[Guest Dik Bleek]

Is this thread being taken off topic, and will end up being closed like most of the interesting threads?

[American]

Either that, or merge Damage's arguments into the Friday Funnies....

[den]

Is this thread being taken off topic, and will end up being closed like most of the interesting threads?

Well yes, it is going off topic.

So, back on topic please.

[waggy]

when i lived on the range,the church was very well attended and had a thriving cub,brownies,guides and scout groups obviously this was 30 years ago and the the population off the area has changed.what gutted me most was that the church was demolished because off dry rot,surely in this day and age this could have been overcome and if the church was to become a mosque it could have been within the structure that was already there

[colin]

when i lived on the range,the church was very well attended and had a thriving cub,brownies,guides and scout groups obviously this was 30 years ago and the the population off the area has changed.what gutted me most was that the church was demolished because off dry rot,surely in this day and age this could have been overcome and if the church was to become a mosque it could have been within the structure that was already there

Waggy, I can't really speak for Blackburn With Darwen Council but I suspect that the planning department there decided that it was an unused church with no architectural merit, no one wanted to use it. It had dry rot. The building would have fallen into rack & ruin, so just let it go. Demolish it.

If someone gets planning permission for a replacement building then so be it.

[Ewood Spark]

I envy your conviction and the certainty you seem to have around how it (we) all started. Personally, I'm reasonably educated and am prepared to accept as a matter of faith that some greater being - call him/her God or Allah if you like - started the whole evolution thing off. I just can't understand why otherwise rational people feel the need to impress upon rational believers ........

Congratulations DB ... that's the best example of an oxymoron I've ever seen on this site!

......... that it's all down to some elaborate chemical reaction that started on an infinitesimally (sic?) small level several million years ago. If that's rational, I'll get my coat!

I'll get your coat. This kind of lazy thinking really infuriates me. What the hell is the education system up to in this country if people are misunderstanding one of simplest yet most elegant theories ever devised by a human brain ..... perhaps if schools spent the time they devote to half-baked Jewish folk tales to teaching kids about science we would not be in this mess.

For anybody interested in a rational coherent explanation as to how an "...elaborate chemical reaction that started on an infinitesimally (sic?) small level several million years ago" might have occurred (without resorting to supernatural mumbo-jumbo) then read on .....

The early Earth was a planet-sized chemistry set. Energy from the sun and the Earth's own interior assembled simple elements (e.g. hydrogen and carbon) into increasingly complex molecules (eg hydro-carbons). This process disappeared once life got going, as complex molecules are food for bacteria, but back 4 billion years ago there were no bacteria to break them down. For millions of years the complexity and size of the molecules increased until an improbable but not impossible event took place ..... a molecule was forged that had the ability to replicate. By replication I mean that the molecule was of such a shape that it acted as a template or framework on which simpler molecules could bond to create a match of the parent. There would now be two templates floating through the soup of molecules .... again building replicas of themselves. From that single replication event the rest is history. Mistakes in the copying procedure could create different types of replicator which would compete with the original. The laws of natural selection then took over ... resulting in the plethora of competing and co-existing life-forms we see all around us.

There is no absolute proof that things happened exactly as I have stated above .... but the point is it gives an example of a rational bottom-up solution instead of the supernatural top-down non-solution. Why invoke 'sky-hooks' when 'cranes' will do?

[thenodrog]

So what about the theory that life was created from one long gone alien spaceman having a dump on the surface of the earth rather than in his spacesuit?

As for me?........ I prefer to believe Douglas Adam's theory. Much more believable than any of that fantasy crap DB and ES are spouting.

[Damage]

Either that, or merge Damage's arguments into the Friday Funnies....

The usual type of retort from the mumbo-jumbos!

Can't think of anything logical ("blimey my beliefs dont even make sense!") so I'll resort to ridicule and get all the other non-thinkers to laugh!

Well religion has had its day and will thankfully be defunct in the next century. Stop wasting your time on such a debunked myth.

[DaveyB]

The usual type of retort from the mumbo-jumbos!

Can't think of anything logical ("blimey my beliefs dont even make sense!") so I'll resort to ridicule and get all the other non-thinkers to laugh!

Well religion has had its day and will thankfully be defunct in the next century. Stop wasting your time on such a debunked myth.

I wasn't going to post on this subject, as I'm sure I'll leave myslef open to ridicule but here goes...

I work for a church. I'm a youth worker - so probably one of the people who's responsible for 'the indoctrination of children into religious belief' as you put it, I prefer to call it running youth groups and meeting a need in society, but each to their own.

I believe that there is a creator God who loves us and wants a relationship with each of us. I also see that that belief has lasted for well over 2,000 years and so i very much doubt that it will 'be dufunct in the next century.' The reason that it has lasted is because people, myself included, have personal experiences and testimonies of God and how He has helped them.

Certainly for a while it seemed that the 'church' (not God) was becoming less and less relevant in todays world, but a lot of them have realised this and acted upon it, employing people such as myself as Youth and Children's workers, and are seeing something of a revival amongst young people.

Now I know that, unfortunately, I am unable to prove 100% the existance of God, that's why it's called 'faith' - a belief in something that you are certain is there but cannot see - but equally, I am sure that you are unable to prove 100% that God doesn't exist - not quite sure therefore why it is 'such a debunked myth.'

To answer just a couple of points raised on this thread - Ewood Spark you may well be correct. That may well be how life as we know it came into existance. I don't really know as i'm not in any way knowledgeable about science (too much time messing about at school probably). However, your theory still leaves massive questions - where did the early earth, or the gases and chemicals needed come from? How was the sun created? How did such complex things such as human beings come into existance when logically they shouldn't be able to exist?

Christians believe that God created the earth. Some will believe that He created literally in 7 days in the way the bible states, some will believe in the big bang theory, some may have different theories as how the world was formed, but they all agree that the bible tells us why the earth was created.

Certainly far from science disproving the existance of God, I know of many very well respected scientists, including a number of university lecturers, who believe that science can answer the how, but only God can answer the why.

And, finally, to Damage - you asked how religion could ever be a source for good. A quick look through history sees that many of the major social reforms both in this country and in America came about because of people's belief in God. The abolition of slavery, because of William Wilberforce's faith, the formation of the welfare and the NHS - pushed through because of people's faith in God and their desire to care for His people. The creation of the majority, if not all, of the major aid agaencies in the world - Red Cross, Oxfam, Christian Aid, World Vision to name just a few - because people feel called by God to help the oppressed and margianalised.

Not just through history either. Most christians are involved in charity work of some kind, whether it's running soup wagons for the homeless, or visting the sick and lonely in hospital, or going out to places torn apart by famine and war and trying their best to help.

Just this saturday - while you were at Ewood worshipping lads who kick a football around, and get paid handsomely to do it, over 100 young people in Leeds went out into the wet and the cold to clean up an estate. Picking up litter, tidying gardens and generally trying to make a difference in a very needy area. Why? Beacuse of their faith in God, and their belief that He cares for all sections of society and that by doing such things they can demonstrate God's love for the people of that area.

But I'm sure you're right - Religion brings nothing but death and destruction!!

[American]

VERY good post Col.