[Archived] Yesterday I Went Down The Range

[adopted scouser]

VERY good post Col.

same avatar, different poster.

[American]

Thought it was odd that he worked with kids!!!

[Damage]

I would every disagree with every one of your points there DaveyB - from your intelligent design ideas (I think you will find that an intellignet designer is a much more complex theory to support than evolution), through your "cant disprove God" idea (well as Betrand Russell said you might as well believe in the celestial teapot orbiting in the asteroid belt cos you cant disprove that) to your assertion that positive morals are caused by religion (I would argue that altruistic behaviour of that sort is programmed genetically and people would behaviour in the same way without religion - religion is not the cause of altruistic behaviour, many atheists are also responsible for positive acts).

Here are some facts to ponder .........

- most scientists are rationalist and atheist

- prison population has a lower percentage of atheists (i.e. more believers) than the general populace

- the percentage of people that are atheist is directly proportionate to IQ

mmmm wonder why that is?

[Drummer Boy]

Congratulations DB ... that's the best example of an oxymoron I've ever seen on this site!

I don't find rational belief oxymoronic - all belief is based on logic/rationale underpinned by some code of beliefs in a pretty circular "which comes first" kind of way - isn't this the basis of philosophy? I envy your conviction and the certainty you seem to have around how it all started. Personally, I find your analysis as improbable as you find mine, despite your presentation of it as fact - it is as much opinion and value based as my version, who knows perhaps it's even as lazy; however, I respect your right to hold the view - perhaps you could reciprocate rather than feeling the need to present as fact your rational belief upon fellow rational believers who believe differently?

This kind of pseudo-intellectual intolerance really infuriates me - what the hell is the education system up to in this country? If schools devoted less time to half-baked logic based on massive assumption presented as scientific fact coupled with encouraging an apparent refusal to contemplate other views then the world would perhaps be a cooler, less cynical place.

For anybody interested in a rational coherent explanation as to how it all started several million years ago (without resorting to mumbo-jumbo logic) then read on .....

God spent six days creating the earth - he did this through a complex and evolutionary series of reactions and interrelationships that have developed and mutated over very many years.

On the seventh day he rested.

There is no absolute proof that things happened exactly as I have stated above .... but the point is it as valid as any "chemistry experiment" theory, so we are unwise to belittle it as indeed we are to attempt to separate "rational" and "belief".

Finally, the trend for our increasingly secular (materially prosperous and amoral?) indigenous population to focus on the negative aspects of religion does cloud the positive: I accept that it is not all good and much harm has been done in the name of organised religion; however, in the same way one bent copper does not make the whole force bad or one Tugay miskick does not make him a useless player, we should be careful not to tar everybody with the same brush - as Davey B demonstrates to good effect.

Thanks for passing my coat, Ewood Spark!

[colin]

DaveyB,

Perhaps you may need to consider changing your avitar.

I've been posting on here with Ralph Wiggum as my avitar for ages as trouble-making, aethist, drug-taking, heavy-drinking, left-wing, stroppy git.

You wouldn't want us to get confused would you?

Over to you. Rev Lovejoy maybe?

Cheers

Colin

[colin]

Thought it was odd that he worked with kids!!!

Excellant! I'd rather work with slugs.

[blue phil]

However I think you have got to put into perspective the reasons why a lot of churches look really good compared to the buildings around them. When they were built they were the centre of society, and the church had all the money. They were purposely built to be inspiring. (sorry about the half-pun there) Even the little local church just around the corner here makes all of our houses look like shacks. It doesn't mean that it's worth preserving for its archetectural or historical value if it falls into disuse.

You sound like a French Revolutionary , Col .....

To me it's largely irrelevant who built a nice building or how old it is . If it offers aesthetic excellence then it's worth preserving - be it a church , a pagan temple , or a venue for executions .

Go back into time and there's thousands of buildings all over Europe that served no purpose for centuries . Thank God (if Ewood Spark doesn't mind me saying that) that many of them survived .

Maybe if we devoted more resources to preserving our heritage and history we'd treat our environment better .

Who knows - one day we may move beyond the present cultural void into a society that doesn't bulldoze its own heritage at the drop of a hat . History runs in cycles ; those churches may yet come in handy some day .

[philipl]

As a Christian, it is good to see a Christian perspective on here.

Unfortunately, intelligent design is up there with a lot of the nonsense the nether end of Islam spouts in terms of utter nonsense masquerading as religious belief.

[Ewood Spark]

Congratulations DB ... that's the best example of an oxymoron I've ever seen on this site!

I don't find rational belief oxymoronic - all belief is based on logic/rationale underpinned by some code of beliefs in a pretty circular "which comes first" kind of way - isn't this the basis of philosophy? I envy your conviction and the certainty you seem to have around how it all started. Personally, I find your analysis as improbable as you find mine, despite your presentation of it as fact - it is as much opinion and value based as my version, who knows perhaps it's even as lazy; however, I respect your right to hold the view - perhaps you could reciprocate rather than feeling the need to present as fact your rational belief upon fellow rational believers who believe differently?

This kind of pseudo-intellectual intolerance really infuriates me - what the hell is the education system up to in this country? If schools devoted less time to half-baked logic based on massive assumption presented as scientific fact coupled with encouraging an apparent refusal to contemplate other views then the world would perhaps be a cooler, less cynical place.

For anybody interested in a rational coherent explanation as to how it all started several million years ago (without resorting to mumbo-jumbo logic) then read on .....

God spent six days creating the earth - he did this through a complex and evolutionary series of reactions and interrelationships that have developed and mutated over very many years.

On the seventh day he rested.

There is no absolute proof that things happened exactly as I have stated above .... but the point is it as valid as any "chemistry experiment" theory, so we are unwise to belittle it as indeed we are to attempt to separate "rational" and "belief".

Finally, the trend for our increasingly secular (materially prosperous and amoral?) indigenous population to focus on the negative aspects of religion does cloud the positive: I accept that it is not all good and much harm has been done in the name of organised religion; however, in the same way one bent copper does not make the whole force bad or one Tugay miskick does not make him a useless player, we should be careful not to tar everybody with the same brush - as Davey B demonstrates to good effect.

Thanks for passing my coat, Ewood Spark!

No....Thank YOU DB ..... by presenting yourself as both a science-loathing ignoramus and biblical literalist you have done my work for me.

[broadsword]

If there was such a thing as intelligent design we wouldn't have our nuts oin the outside.

[broadsword]

From teh "Please Read" thread, pinned at the top of the page:

Three points that we wish to be made known:

[1]From now on, threads about immigration, race or religion will not be allowed on here. In fact any topic considered by the admin/mods to be potentially offensive, to any individual, wont be tolerated. Those topics will be locked or posts deleted. Posters could be suspended from posting, temporarily or permanently. Admin/mods decisions aren't negotiable.

Oooopsie, seems this thread is now solely about religion and is going south very predictably?

[blue phil]

As a Christian, it is good to see a Christian perspective on here.

Unfortunately, intelligent design is up there with a lot of the nonsense the nether end of Islam spouts in terms of utter nonsense masquerading as religious belief.

Surely intelligent design is a worthy enough , and harmless , theory ?

As religious beliefs go it beats most .....

[blue phil]

No....Thank YOU DB ..... by presenting yourself as both a science-loathing ignoramus and biblical literalist you have done my work for me.

You come across as a very intolerant person , ES .....

An aetheistic fundamentalist one might say ......

[blue phil]

Oooopsie, seems this thread is now solely about religion and is going south very predictably?

Perhaps you should inform on the "guilty" members via the appropiate channels , Bryan .....

[broadsword]

I'll turn supergrass if I'm rewarded suitably in teh after-life.

[Ewood Spark]

You come across as a very intolerant person , ES .....

An aetheistic fundamentalist one might say ......

.....which by the same standards would make you a wishy-washy cultural relativist who will believe anything. Remember ..... by all means have an open mind ....... but not so open your brain drops out!

[thenodrog]

From teh "Please Read" thread, pinned at the top of the page:

Oooopsie, seems this thread is now solely about religion and is going south very predictably?

No worries Bryan. There's absolutely no problem with anybody dissing Christianity on here.

[DaveyB]

I would every disagree with every one of your points there DaveyB - from your intelligent design ideas (I think you will find that an intellignet designer is a much more complex theory to support than evolution), through your "cant disprove God" idea (well as Betrand Russell said you might as well believe in the celestial teapot orbiting in the asteroid belt cos you cant disprove that) to your assertion that positive morals are caused by religion (I would argue that altruistic behaviour of that sort is programmed genetically and people would behaviour in the same way without religion - religion is not the cause of altruistic behaviour, many atheists are also responsible for positive acts).

Here are some facts to ponder .........

- most scientists are rationalist and atheist

- prison population has a lower percentage of atheists (i.e. more believers) than the general populace

- the percentage of people that are atheist is directly proportionate to IQ

mmmm wonder why that is?

That's fine - you're entitled to have your opinion - I certainly wouldn't want to force mine on you, however much you try to force yours on me. I merely wanted to put across a christian viewpoint as I find it increasingly frustrating to see so many half-truths, assumptions and downright lies paraded as fact when discussing the Christian religion.

If you were to re-read my post, I at no point said that people with no religious faith were any less altruistic, but I still stand by the fact that for many people who do contribute in a positive way to society the main reason for doing so is the belief that that is what God wants them to do. Certainly in the case of the 100 or so teenagers I mentioned who cleaned up an area of Leeds on Saturday that was their sole motive. I'm sure if those young people had no faith in God they could have still gone out and done the same stuff, but I would like to bet that they wouldn't have.

[DaveyB]

DaveyB,

Perhaps you may need to consider changing your avitar.

I've been posting on here with Ralph Wiggum as my avitar for ages as trouble-making, aethist, drug-taking, heavy-drinking, left-wing, stroppy git.

You wouldn't want us to get confused would you?

Over to you. Rev Lovejoy maybe?

Cheers

Colin

Point taken Colin. I had forgotten that I had set it to that when the board changed last (I don't post too often!)

I've changed it now - although decided not to take up your suggestion of Rev. Lovejoy. Thanks though.

[Flopsy]

Theno and Bryan are quite right - Can we leave whether Religion/Christianity is good or bad debate and get back to architecture?

BP makes an interesting comment about history and buildings working in cycles, however what usualy happens with buildings is that they are used as something else, not the original use they were built for.

Warehouses and factories built in the Industrial revolution are now Flats, shops or art galleries, Churches are wine bars, houses, community centres etc. Cinemas are bingo halls.

Most buildings with architectural merit survive, the others dont. Look at the Rotunda in Birmingham, once an office building now being revamped as luxury flats (and not demolished because it was made of post stressed concrete oh no)

[SAS]

No worries Bryan. There's absolutely no problem with anybody dissing Christianity on here.

I say all those who are should be given 1 week bans

the racist biggots

[Flopsy]

Cough cough - Architecture or the "Range" please

[American]

Cough cough - Architecture or the "Range" please

Yes, God forbid (no pun intended), that we continue one of the most interesting discussions on here in the past few weeks...

[den]

Yes, God forbid (no pun intended), that we continue one of the most interesting discussions on here in the past few weeks...

Well the topic is about Abbey's visit to the range.

If you want to start a topic about the creation of the earth, then feel free. Geology is a very interesting subject.

[blue phil]

Cough cough - Architecture or the "Range" please

Architecture please ...