[Archived] Why Do We Have No Money

[Claytons Left Boot]

Brian, - I don't think anyone is BLAMING the trust. Some people are sceptical that the trusts' recent decision is what Jack would have wanted. At the end of all this, the trust aren't there to decide what THEY want to do about BRFC. They are there to ensure that what Jack wanted, does in fact happen.

Can someone persuade me that he would have wanted the trust to withdraw their recent annual input?

Spot on den.

A minor point regarding fernhurst's post - we are not the only exception to the rule - Wigan, Bolton and Fulham are in a similar boat to us with regard to crowds, disposable income of supporters, investment etc. We are going to be left behind though sooner or later if the trust don't dip their hands in their pockets.

[Jonnolad]

Brian, - I don't think anyone is BLAMING the trust. Some people are sceptical that the trusts' recent decision is what Jack would have wanted. At the end of all this, the trust aren't there to decide what THEY want to do about BRFC. They are there to ensure that what Jack wanted, does in fact happen.

Can someone persuade me that he would have wanted the trust to withdraw their recent annual input?

Surely if Jack would have wanted the trust to put money in year on year then it would have been a fairly easy requirement to facilitate (easier than say the requirements in place with regard to selling the club). He clearly didn't put that requirement in, so that tells you something.

Jack definitely did want the club to be self sufficient after all.

[PAFELL]

Lets be honest. Rovers may be short of money for transfers etc, but the debt they have is NOT as large as other clubs. Would we want Rovers to have the debt that clubs like liverpool, man u, etc etc have? I don't think so. What would happen to those clubs if all of a sudden, say because of the stock market crashing, recession etc, the owners said they were not going to invest anymore and those who loaned the money wanted their debt paid. A lot of these clubs would go into administration (15 point deduction) and could fold. I do believe that football is heading for such a day.

Rovers may be plodding along slowly in the financial sence, but they are not at risk as these other clubs are. It is possible that Rovers are actually saving money, holding it back for future transfers.

Ironically, if each Rovers Supporter brought along, encouraged, dragged, just one additional friend to watch a Rovers match, the attendance would be doubled!!!!!

Jack Walker did want the club to be self sufficient and I belive that is what Rovers are trying to do. The trustiees are watching the situation to see how Rovers cope - but even they would not let the club go under.

[den]

Surely if Jack would have wanted the trust to put money in year on year then it would have been a fairly easy requirement to facilitate (easier than say the requirements in place with regard to selling the club). He clearly didn't put that requirement in, so that tells you something.

That's not clear to me. How do you know that to be the case? - Just because that's the way it is now?

[den]

Jack Walker did want the club to be self sufficient and I belive that is what Rovers are trying to do.

This point has been raised a number of times - and it's true, he did want the club to become self sufficient. I imagine that he would have wanted that to come about when the club wasn't in debt and still had some kind of finances that allowed the manager to bring in a new player or two. I doubt that it would have been Jack's way to simply pull the plug. Now before everyone shouts that's not necessarily happening, - fair do's, it might not be the end of trust fund aid for the club, but we'll have to wait and see on that one.

[simcla]

The club could try getting additional revenue from their existing customers.... and i don't mean putting ticket prices up. They could try putting on decent pre-match entertainment, charge less for Beer in ground so that fans would have a couple of pints in the ground before the game, rather than in the pubs with no connection to the club. They could also sell food that is edible and good value, then fans wouldn,t go to Mcdonalds (is their food good value and edible?, probably not but in comparison to the pies at Ewood it is) Basically what i am saying is that if the club can get more of the average fans matchday spend (rather than to surrounding food and drink outlets) then the clubs revenue would increase. They could even put a big Marquee on the club car park that it is impossible to get off on matchdays (the executive one!)

[Jonnolad]

That's not clear to me. How do you know that to be the case? - Just because that's the way it is now?

Well the way it is now does suggest that there is either no requirement in place (or it has expired) or the trust are committing some sort of financial impropriety by not adhering to Jack's wishes. I severely doubt it's the latter given the amount given to Rovers (3m) compared to the size of the whole trust financially (as the 1200m Flybe link illustrates).

That's presuming, of course, that there are legal / financial restrictions in place for his wishes to be carried out, although there seems to be with rules governing the sale of the club.

[den]

Well the way it is now does suggest that there is either no requirement in place (or it has expired) or the trust are committing some sort of financial impropriety by not adhering to Jack's wishes. I severely doubt it's the latter given the amount given to Rovers (3m) compared to the size of the whole trust financially (as the 1200m Flybe link illustrates).

That's presuming, of course, that there are legal / financial restrictions in place for his wishes to be carried out, although there seems to be with rules governing the sale of the club.

There's a lot of "suggests", "Severely doubt" and "That's presuming, of course,"s in there Jonnolad.

Which all "suggests" to me, that this original statement -

Surely if Jack would have wanted the trust to put money in year on year then it would have been a fairly easy requirement to facilitate (easier than say the requirements in place with regard to selling the club). He clearly didn't put that requirement in, so that tells you something.

is pure guesswork. [like all of us].

[brfcmad1979]

Can anyone tell me what the called up share capital is all about on the financial report have slept since last doing economics and my head now hurts after reading the statement.

[philipl]

That is the cash the shareholders have put into the company in return for owning it. Over 99% is from Jack Walker/ the Walker Trust.

[Jonnolad]

There's a lot of "suggests", "Severely doubt" and "That's presuming, of course,"s in there Jonnolad.

Which all "suggests" to me, that this original statement -

Surely if Jack would have wanted the trust to put money in year on year then it would have been a fairly easy requirement to facilitate (easier than say the requirements in place with regard to selling the club). He clearly didn't put that requirement in, so that tells you something.

is pure guesswork. [like all of us].

In fairness though my assumptions are based on the trust not committing financial irreluarities - a fair assumption I'd think

You may think otherwise though

[Dunnfc]

Say if Flybe ever got into money problems would it be possable for the Walkers to extract money from BRFC accounts to put into Flybe with it being illegal?

[Jan]

Say if Flybe ever got into money problems would it be possable for the Walkers to extract money from BRFC accounts to put into Flybe with it being illegal?

I suspect technically the answer would be yes. The trustee's responsibility is to the trust as a whole and if they could borrow more cheaply from the football club to support the airline they would. However if Flybe went down, BRFC wouldn't- unless there was a loan and the fact that the loan was not to be repaid made us insolvent.

It's all theoretical anyway was we lose money and haven't any to give. Would be possible the other way round, but I suspect the trustees wouldn't throw good money after bad.

[Claytons Left Boot]

If you will pardon the pun, the goalposts have moved so much in the time since Jack passed away. Then, there was a wish for Rovers to be self sufficient within a certain timescale and all things being equal it could well have happened.

However, in the world of football all things are not equal. Old Trafford has since been developed to a capacity of 76k, Arsenal have moved to the Emirates with a 60k capacity, Chelsea have their own plans to develop as have Liverpool, Everton and so on. Foreign consortiums, investment groups and the like are snapping up clubs in this country on a seemingly monthly basis and the clubs on the fringe of European places, clubs essentially on a par with Rovers, are kicking on at a rate that we are unable to sustain - clubs like Man City, Villa, Portsmouth and West Ham. Other clubs like Newcastle and Derby are going to have money thrown at them and how long will it be before QPR are dining from the table? The bigger clubs are also branching out into south east Asia and America with a view to maximising sales revenue from merchandising. They're going global.

Very soon, only clubs who are willing to invest heavily will be able to last the course. Sure, it will be hard to break the monopoly of Manchester Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea (and to a lesser degree Liverpool) but at least those fringe clubs will be in the top flight.

For the Trust to turn off the tap now is almost suicidal. Had things remained constant with the economics of year 2000, no problem but they haven't. I, and most on here, berated Vinjay a couple of years ago but, without really knowing it, he hit the nail on the head and with hindsight he was correct.

Without investment it is only a matter of time. In fact if the Trust continued to give us £3m pa it would still only be a matter of time.

[brfcmad1979]

That is the cash the shareholders have put into the company in return for owning it. Over 99% is from Jack Walker/ the Walker Trust.

ta for that too many mind numbing years in the transport industry has finally killed off my head

[Hughesy]

How could we get a copy of the trust document that Jack Walker made out??

[Guest fernhurstblue]

this reply is a total stab in the dark, but would it be covered under the freedom of information act?

[joey_big_nose]

How could we get a copy of the trust document that Jack Walker made out??

Great question. As it is a binding document you think a neutral third party adjudicator would hold it rather than the trust themselves, but I could easily be wrong. Rovers should have a copy as well right?

[JAL]

Sat in a meeting at work yesterday about new terms and conditions being revised down and the main union guy from GMB said theres a statistic saying that in the area of Blackburn with Darwen the average wage is the seventeenth lowest wage in England with Wales.

It doesnt inspire you to invest in BwD if your looking for a return either short term or long term at this moment in time.

[stuwilky]

this reply is a total stab in the dark, but would it be covered under the freedom of information act?

No.

The FOI only applies to certain "public" organisations.

[Tris]

Brian, - I don't think anyone is BLAMING the trust. Some people are sceptical that the trusts' recent decision is what Jack would have wanted. At the end of all this, the trust aren't there to decide what THEY want to do about BRFC. They are there to ensure that what Jack wanted, does in fact happen.

Can someone persuade me that he would have wanted the trust to withdraw their recent annual input?

One thing is for sure - he was an astute businessman himself. As are those who are now running the empire he left - with great success. And guided by the deeds of the trust referred to by PrianPotter on page 10.

So the best answer to the question you pose Den, is (IMO) yes. Because that decision has to have been made in accordance with JW's instructions, by the people he appointed to folllow them and who he appointed to act in the best interests of the club.

At a time when £3 million buys only part of Jason Koumas (who isn't any better than what we can already put out on the field) and at a time when the PL is awash with such obscene amounts of money that £3 million doesn't make a blind bit of difference - I'd like to think that JW would have kept his hard earned cash in his pocket as well - rather than repeat the expensive mistakes of the Hodgson and Kidd eras.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Sat in a meeting at work yesterday about new terms and conditions being revised down and the main union guy from GMB said theres a statistic saying that in the area of Blackburn with Darwen the average wage is the seventeenth lowest wage in England with Wales.

It doesnt inspire you to invest in BwD if your looking for a return either short term or long term at this moment in time.

In the State of the English cities report published a couple of years ago, Blackburn was one of a handful of towns, where average disposable household income had dropped in the last few years.

[92er]

Sat in a meeting at work yesterday about new terms and conditions being revised down and the main union guy from GMB said theres a statistic saying that in the area of Blackburn with Darwen the average wage is the seventeenth lowest wage in England with Wales.

It doesnt inspire you to invest in BwD if your looking for a return either short term or long term at this moment in time.

I understand that according to a recent IPPR report the per capita earnings in Blackburn were the lowest in the country.

[JAL]

In the State of the English cities report published a couple of years ago, Blackburn was one of a handful of towns, where average disposable household income had dropped in the last few years.

Its not looking good, my income could in the next few years drop by around 24%, i stress could, it might never happen but i work in a profitable global biusiness thats run by venture capitalist who dont come from this area but they see that everyone is earning less so why should they pay more despite many years of loyality.

So it gets me thinking has multiculturalism linked with 'New' Labour worked for Blackburn, when the chavs have their benefits cut i dont think Blackburn is going to be such a safe place to be in i really dont?

Where will that leave Rovers, i think everyone managing Rovers at whatever level are doing a fantastic job considering what they are up against in trying to grow the club and brand.

I'm positive about the future of Rovers but not so the town.

[Anti Euro Smiths Fan]

Friedel wants Hughes to be backed in the transfer market

"Hopefully the club will give Mark some money to spend in the summer," says Friedel. Absolutely right Brad - but I fear the board and trustees are being as tight as a nun's knickers.

Hughes has already spoken of his frustration at working within a tight budget and having got Robbie Savage off the Rovers wage bill it would be a big slap in the face for him if he wasn't given some funds to spend in the summer.