[Archived] Why Do We Have No Money

[MCMC1875]

well he did some sulking in december

Somebody get Waggy a pint for God's sake.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Just before I go firmly back on topic to discuss transfer expenditure (or should I say our lack of expenditure) , my apologies if anyone was upset by 'The Hokey Cokey' song I posted yesterday.

For the remainder of the year I don't intend to post any more facetious digs towards PhilipL, in case it gets misconstrued as being personal. I've never had anything personal against Philip.

I wasn't aware of any issues between Philip and Nicko. I don't always religiously read 'Nicko's thread' in the transfer window, so I'm not aware of what this is about.

Anyway, back on topic...

I'm afraid that what I'm about to post next is likely to make grim reading for those of us who believe that Rovers in recent seasons haven't been active enough in terms of spending money in the transfer market.

According to this Premiership spending table, Rovers have indeed had the lowest transfer expenditure in the last five years. We've had a transfer surplus of £9.5m in those five seasons - clearly selling more than we've bought in the transfer market in the last five years.

Obviously I'm aware that there's no way that Rovers can compete with the likes of Chelsea - net spending of £257m over five years, Liverpool - net spending of £86m over five years, and Man United - net spending of £78m over five years.

However, I'd like to think that we'd be able to compete in the transfer market with local rivals like Bolton, who've had net spending of £13.95m in the last five seasons. That's £23.45m more than Rovers have spent during the equivalent period.

Fulham, whose average attendances of about 24,000 are similar to Rovers, have spent around £19m more than Rovers in the last five seasons.

The only difference is that their money men are still living so can say yeah or no even though finananically it does not make sense. Rovers' trustees have to undertake that Jack's interests survive financially. They have to apply financial logic where as the men behind the money at the two examples given do not have to.

We have been here before. Before Jack invested in Rovers, how many times did Rovers spend nothing when all around were spending to gain promotion to the First Division.

We should be used to being paupers.

[thenodrog]

We have been here before. Before Jack invested in Rovers, how many times did Rovers spend nothing when all around were spending to gain promotion to the First Division.

We should be used to being paupers.

Those who are old enough are. It's the Johnny cum Lately's that won't be able to cope.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

well he did some sulking in december

Oh kinell! Talk about Kettle and pot!

I was going to say that about him calling Sam lardarse!!

sticks and stones trout

Quality stuff! Messageboard Gold for sure!

[den]

Those who are old enough are. It's the Johnny cum Lately's that won't be able to cope.

Not everyone reads the preview threads, so I'll post this here. It's an interview with Duncan McKenzie, but is relevant to the current discussion on here.

Thisislancashire

[dingles staying down 4ever]

Those who are old enough are. It's the Johnny cum Lately's that won't be able to cope.

and the Gold Diggers. I know one who used to have an Anfield season ticket, until Rovers started doing well but now is walking around with Man Utd gear on. I expect that with children, sadly happening on the estate I live, but for Adults in their fifties and sixties, its disgraceful.

Will the Gold Diggers please k*** of and leave our great club to those who love it for that it is to pick up the pieces.

GOOD NIGHT!!!!

[thenodrog]

GOOD NIGHT!!!!

It's 12 noon!

[doctorryan]

Those who are old enough are. It's the Johnny cum Lately's that won't be able to cope.

Got some bad news for you LancU. The Johnny come Lately's are all the club has. Blackburn is where the club plays, but it is not the only group of people they represent anymore. Not at this level, in this league, in this world. Blackburn's populace may be first on the list, but they've been tapped out. It's the supporters who live elsewhere in the world, whether it be Manchester, London, New York or Hong Kong, that make the difference between being successful (books even, winning football) or not. And the only way to keep them consistently interested or get them interested in the first place, to keep them spending their time and money (i.e. traveling to & from matches, buying shirts, scarves, satellite TV & online subscriptions) is to be, at the very least, TRYING to get into the Champions League. That's it, that's the measuring stick, whether anyone likes it or not. And ever since the "Andy Cole bought to Duff sold to Bazza's a waste" period the Trustees of the Jack Walker Settlement have decided not to help us anymore, not to the Cole level anyway, which is needed at least once every 3 transfer windows for us to stay within a shout of 4th. And directly because of their lack of support, more than any other single reason, attendance and overall interest has waned. Distant and overseas supporters will not support uncompetitive football and there are more of us than of you locals anymore. Lower league football? That will mean deliverance into the dark ages. Supporters have expectations. You meet them or you go bye-bye. That's the way it is in sports, period. Many a top level manager already understand this.

[ABBEY]

more non locals???

bullshit.

were blackburn rovers not man u for gods sake,do you ever listen to accents when you come? id say there are at least 80% lancastrian accents in the ground.Im in no way having a pop at non locals but this is up there with the daftest post ive ever seen.I for one would never go on another board of the teams i follow and come out with this.

local support doesnt matter yea right!!!!

[doctorryan]

Where do you think the extra 7 to 10 thousand in attendance per match were coming from when Shearer was pumping in the goals for us? Blackburn and Darwin? I don't think so 2-rings. It was Blackburn supporters from Manchester, London, etc...(many of whom were born in Blackburn but had skills to sell and moved out) who took the time to travel north to attend matches. Why? Because they had a reasonable expectation that they would be entertained by witnessing the winning of BIG matches (i.e. games against the ManYoos of the world for spots at the top of the table). That attraction is no longer there, thus there are many more empty seats at Ewood. I'm not questioning the support of people in Blackburn at all. They still show up in big numbers, but there was never enough money or supporters in Blackburn in the first place to sustain this kind of operation. Which is why the Trustees have to pull their thumb out eventually or we're dead.

And would people who keep posting about the Trustees converting debt into shares on other threads stop acting as if this was some kind of charitable move on their part. That money was gone forever the moment Jack spent it back in the 90s and he and all his people knew it. Calling it debt then was a beneficial paperwork move and converting it into shares 10 years later is as well. It counts for almost nothing now, other than perhaps as a reason for trying to raise the club's "for sale" price.

[ABBEY]

2 rings.yawn how original.Granted cant seem to recall many Darwin (id suggest there isnt one Darwin season ticket holder) people ever being rovers regulars ,theres thousands of locals who dont go any more ,im so sorry ive only been a rover for 40 years i bow to your vast superior knowledge...im not worthy.

[BuckyRover]

2 rings.yawn how original.Granted cant seem to recall many Darwin (id suggest there isnt one Darwin season ticket holder) people ever being rovers regulars ,theres thousands of locals who dont go any more ,im so sorry ive only been a rover for 40 years i bow to your vast superior knowledge...im not worthy.

Do you ever give it a rest?

Yawn

[ABBEY]

who woke you up? give what a rest? someone having a pop at the local support ...oooooops forgot you never go do you .

[doctorryan]

I'm not having a pop at the local support you jagoff. There simply aren't enough people of means in Blackburn to support a COMPETITIVE club in the Premier League. Therefore the outsiders, as numbskulls like you see us, have to be appeased (and to high degree) for the club to be able to get over the hump and compete at the top level. That investment has to come from somewhere. Right now the only place it can come from is the Trust, unless there's some new owner just over the horizon. And please don't brag about 40 years of following...."name your club and sport". It impresses me not at all 2-rings.

[Tris]

Got some bad news for you LancU. The Johnny come Lately's are all the club has.

The rest of your rant contradicts this statement - you go on to say "supporters have expectations, you meet them or go bye-bye" - I don't think you can say that about the local hard core who have supported the club through good times and bad.

Blackburn is where the club plays, but it is not the only group of people they represent anymore. Not at this level, in this league, in this world. Blackburn's populace may be first on the list, but they've been tapped out. It's the supporters who live elsewhere in the world, whether it be Manchester, London, New York or Hong Kong, that make the difference between being successful (books even, winning football) or not.

That's so much rubbish. Unless you can prove that every single non-local fan spends the value of a season ticket directly with the football club every year (and even then most local ST holders spend money on merchandise and other club income (catering etc) throughout the year.

And the only way to keep them consistently interested or get them interested in the first place, to keep them spending their time and money (i.e. traveling to & from matches, buying shirts, scarves, satellite TV & online subscriptions) is to be, at the very least, TRYING to get into the Champions League. That's it, that's the measuring stick, whether anyone likes it or not.

Again, only the buying shirts and scarves bit has any bearing on increasing revenue for BRFC - and then only if it's through the official outlet. Travel clearly doesn't, satellite TV subscriptions don't (unless you're happy to be throwing your cash at all 20 PL clubs equally) and I think that the revenue from the online subscription is fixed in a long term deal with the provider - so that doesn't up the BRFC-specific revenue either.

Distant and overseas supporters will not support uncompetitive football and there are more of us than of you locals anymore. Lower league football? That will mean deliverance into the dark ages. Supporters have expectations. You meet them or you go bye-bye. That's the way it is in sports, period.

Can you prove the point in bold? I doubt it.

Clearly it's great that the club has fans from around the world, and you're all more than welcome. However, I'm not sure what the point of this rant actually is, other than to wind up people who do live locally and spend their cash at Ewood 19+ times a season.

[RovertheHill]

Anyway, the Premiership spending table I'm referring to is below:

This is an interesting table although it only tells you so much. Many people seem to equate spending large sums of money with pushing on for Europe and Champions League. I suggest reviewing the relative spending of Spurs, Newcastle, Portsmouth, Middlesboro, Sunderland, Birmingham, Man City and Derby. Two of them relegated and hopefully at least one more will be this season. The others going nowhere fast. Heck, it doesn't even include the "how not to run a club" case that is Leeds!

As far as I can see the facts of the matter are these

1) Unless you are a big 4 club, without Sky TV or very rich owners, premier league football is not a viable business. Which makes it all the more dire if we are relegated

2) The club has tried a number of initiatives to increase crowds. None have really worked which suggests we have a core crowd of maybe 20,000. The problem is that in the current economic situation we probably cannot even rely on that - many people will have difficult choices to make as borne out by the crowd against coventry

3) The trust do not want a football club any more, but given half the premier league are up for sale the chance of finding a buyer is slim to none. The chance of finding a buyer willing to invest heavily (translation: lose money) I would say is a big fat zero.

4) The club therefore have a choice - which is taking on significant debt to fund investment (is that even possible at the moment?) or to cut their cloth accordingly. And that's where we are.

I don't want to get too negative but long-term I think there really is only one outcome for us so I suggest that we enjoy the ride now whilst we can. It would be nice if refs cut us a bit of slack though!

[ABBEY]

I'm not having a pop at the local support you jagoff. There simply aren't enough people of means in Blackburn to support a COMPETITIVE club in the Premier League. Therefore the outsiders, as numbskulls like you see us, have to be appeased (and to high degree) for the club to be able to get over the hump and compete at the top level. That investment has to come from somewhere. Right now the only place it can come from is the Trust, unless there's some new owner just over the horizon. And please don't brag about 40 years of following...."name your club and sport". It impresses me not at all 2-rings.

next time your over pal ,try calling me jagoff to my face oh brave are you not behind your keys."numbskulls? where in gods name did i say that?

If we go down to non league id still be a rover ...would you oh brave one.Not braggging about being a rover for 40 years ...its fact.

The rest of your rant contradicts this statement - you go on to say "supporters have expectations, you meet them or go bye-bye" - I don't think you can say that about the local hard core who have supported the club through good times and bad.....EXACTLY TRIS,WE REMEBER 3RD DIVISION FOOTBALL.

That's so much rubbish. Unless you can prove that every single non-local fan spends the value of a season ticket directly with the football club every year (and even then most local ST holders spend money on merchandise and other club income (catering etc) throughout the year......ITS LIKE ME IVE SPENT ABOUT 6 GRAND ON BRONCOS TRIPS,IT DOESNT MAKE ME A BETTER FAN THAN A SEASON TICKET HOLDER BECAUSE I SPENT A FORTUNE ON JERSIES ,CUPS ,HOODIES ETC.

Again, only the buying shirts and scarves bit has any bearing on increasing revenue for BRFC - and then only if it's through the official outlet. Travel clearly doesn't, satellite TV subscriptions don't (unless you're happy to be throwing your cash at all 20 PL clubs equally) and I think that the revenue from the online subscription is fixed in a long term deal with the provider - so that doesn't up the BRFC-specific revenue either.

Can you prove the point in bold? I doubt it. ME NEITHER

Clearly it's great that the club has fans from around the world, and you're all more than welcome. However, I'm not sure what the point of this rant actually is, other than to wind up people who do live locally and spend their cash at Ewood 19+ times a season.EXACTLY TRIS AND THEN BUCKY STICKS HIS OAR IN..CLASSY

[PAFELL]

Got some bad news for you LancU. The Johnny come Lately's are all the club has. Blackburn is where the club plays, but it is not the only group of people they represent anymore. Not at this level, in this league, in this world. Blackburn's populace may be first on the list, but they've been tapped out. It's the supporters who live elsewhere in the world, whether it be Manchester, London, New York or Hong Kong, that make the difference between being successful (books even, winning football) or not. And the only way to keep them consistently interested or get them interested in the first place, to keep them spending their time and money (i.e. traveling to & from matches, buying shirts, scarves, satellite TV & online subscriptions) is to be, at the very least, TRYING to get into the Champions League. That's it, that's the measuring stick, whether anyone likes it or not. And ever since the "Andy Cole bought to Duff sold to Bazza's a waste" period the Trustees of the Jack Walker Settlement have decided not to help us anymore, not to the Cole level anyway, which is needed at least once every 3 transfer windows for us to stay within a shout of 4th. And directly because of their lack of support, more than any other single reason, attendance and overall interest has waned. Distant and overseas supporters will not support uncompetitive football and there are more of us than of you locals anymore. Lower league football? That will mean deliverance into the dark ages. Supporters have expectations. You meet them or you go bye-bye. That's the way it is in sports, period. Many a top level manager already understand this.

You are completely wrong. I started supporting Rovers when I lived in Blackburn. The club was in the lower divisions. Since supporting rovers there has been good and bad times for the club. I do not live in blackburn anymore, yet still support the club. I will continue to do so no matter what division they are in. The club is not dependent on distant supporters but are dependant on the local support. I also believe that every season rovers have been in the prem they have wanted to get into the champions league and have failed to do so.

You are really out of order to come onto this message board and complain about the local supporters.

[doctorryan]

next time your over pal ,try calling me jagoff to my face oh brave are you not behind your keys."numbskulls? where in gods name did i say that?

If we go down to non league id still be a rover ...would you oh brave one.Not braggging about being a rover for 40 years ...its fact.

Non-league. LOL

I didn't question the 40 years statement, I said it doesn't impress me.

You got called a jagoff because you accused me of slogging off local supporters when I wasn't.

I stand by that.

Too bad our game with Denver this year is on the road. I would have invited you over to Pittsburgh, brave one.

And if you're going to threaten someone (which is really silly behavior BTW), try to spell correctly jagoff.

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

And if you're going to threatened someone, try to spell correctly jagoff.

Sigh. Irony?

[ABBEY]

Non-league. LOL

I didn't question the 40 years statement, I said it doesn't impress me.

You got called a jagoff because you accused me of slogging off local supporters when I wasn't.

I stand by that.

Too bad our game with Denver this year is on the road. I would have invited you over to Pittsburgh, brave one.

And if you're going to threatened someone (which is really silly behavior BTW), try to spell correctly jagoff.

jagoff? spelt it exactly as you did ..doh!!!

im no grammar king but what does "if your going to threatened someone " mean?

I have not threatened you i just asked you to say it to my face ,I think you will find that is classified as sticking up from your brave words.

whats funny about non league?

and you being a squeeler fan dont impress me neither,are they your local team or is ironic?

cant afford the nfl this year try again in 2 years.

[doctorryan]

You are completely wrong. I started supporting Rovers when I lived in Blackburn. The club was in the lower divisions. Since supporting rovers there has been good and bad times for the club. I do not live in blackburn anymore, yet still support the club. I will continue to do so no matter what division they are in. The club is not dependent on distant supporters but are dependant on the local support. I also believe that every season rovers have been in the prem they have wanted to get into the champions league and have failed to do so.

You are really out of order to come onto this message board and complain about the local supporters.

I'm not complaining about local support PAFELL. You people are missing the points.

The town is not big enough.

We need all the support we can get, from wherever we can get it.

The Trust has to make up the difference for us to survive.

You PAFELL, being outside Blackburn nowadays, are considered an outsider by my definition.

Now where in any of my posts does it say that I don't believe the locals are doing their part?

How much of today's support would be defined as "Johnny come Lately" by 'drog. I started supporting the club in 1996. I'm pretty sure he means me. If all you pre-91ers want a return to the good old days then good luck to you.

Sigh. Irony?

Good spot Anti.

[ABBEY]

I started supporting the club in 1996. I'm pretty sure he means me. If all you pre-91ers want a return to the good old days then good luck to you.

no we dont but if it happened id still be there buying my season ticket...

[doctorryan]

jagoff? spelt it exactly as you did ..doh!!!

im no grammar king but what does "if your going to threatened someone " mean?

I have not threatened you i just asked you to say it to my face ,I think you will find that is classified as sticking up from your brave words.

whats funny about non league?

and you being a squeeler fan dont impress me neither,are they your local team or is ironic?

cant afford the nfl this year try again in 2 years.

A spellchecker mistake still qualifies as a spelling mistake, either way: guilty as charged.

Yes, the Steelers are my local team and they were not chosen to impress anyone. I was 4 at the time of the decision.

If Denver plays in the 'Burgh in 2010 it's a date.

no we dont but if it happened id still be there buying my season ticket...

Now that impresses me.

[doctorryan]

The rest of your rant contradicts this statement - you go on to say "supporters have expectations, you meet them or go bye-bye" - I don't think you can say that about the local hard core who have supported the club through good times and bad.

That's so much rubbish. Unless you can prove that every single non-local fan spends the value of a season ticket directly with the football club every year (and even then most local ST holders spend money on merchandise and other club income (catering etc) throughout the year.

Again, only the buying shirts and scarves bit has any bearing on increasing revenue for BRFC - and then only if it's through the official outlet. Travel clearly doesn't, satellite TV subscriptions don't (unless you're happy to be throwing your cash at all 20 PL clubs equally) and I think that the revenue from the online subscription is fixed in a long term deal with the provider - so that doesn't up the BRFC-specific revenue either.

Can you prove the point in bold? I doubt it.

Clearly it's great that the club has fans from around the world, and you're all more than welcome. However, I'm not sure what the point of this rant actually is, other than to wind up people who do live locally and spend their cash at Ewood 19+ times a season.

Tris - Read all my posts again. I'm not slogging off the locals. I'm slogging off the Trustees. Rovers attendance based on percentage of local population is top-drawer. But there are not enough supporters overall in Blackburn to sustain a competitive club in the PL. Competitive means able to challenge for honors. How any club could sell season tickets to anyone under the auspice of: "Well, we just want to make sure we're around next year and in the meantime maybe something great and unexpected will happen." I'll never know. But regardless of what JW and the gaffer of the summer (this year will be our 3rd in 3 years) say in the press and advertisements, the quote above is what's really being said by our actions in the transfer windows. We need to sustain as much of our current support as is possible, while finding as much new support as we can. Most of that new support, you and I both know, will have to come from outside Blackburn and that will only come if we're competing. Call them glory hunters if you will, but it is whether or not they stay supporters when times are bad that defines them.

I sometimes wonder if there is a fear in Blackburn of people from outside Blackburn coming in to take over? (AS IF? Unless someone like myself hits the lottery to the tune of about a billion dollars, it's not going to happen.) And if so, what would the choice of those in Blackburn who are persuaded by this fear be if the only options were:

1 - People from outside Blackburn take over but we consistently finish top-5 while maintaining Brockhall and staying at Ewood.

2 - Blackburn people stay in charge but the club plays 2 divisions down.

Now I only present that SILLY choice above to make a point. And I'm not bothering to explain it to those who don't get it.

Who knows what the future holds for OUR CLUB?!?!?!

This much I do know: We outsiders are just as important to the club's long term future as you locals. Whether it's me or Malta Phil or Eddie or American or any of thousands of others. We make the effort, we spend time, we spend money. Those in Blackburn whose opinion of outsiders is: "Who needs them?" are pushing a formula whose only end result is a Leeds and/or Forrest-like (playing level wise anyway) disaster. If those thoughts hurt I sympathize, but that's reality. The league is too big for Blackburn by itself. We all know that. Just like the NFL would be too big for Wilkes-Barre, Pennsylvania or is too big for Green Bay, Wisconsin. It isn't meant as an insult to Blackburn, its inhabitants or the club's local supporters. Here in the NFL a salary-cap and revenue-sharing protect the smaller-town clubs. That kind of system is never coming to the PL. In our case the Trust has to make up the difference. They won't which is why we're in the trouble we're in.

[philipl]

I struggle to think of a solution but I will say the following:

1) When we won the Premier League, a casual walk round the Rovers coach park showed there must have been about 500 fans who had travelled to support the Rovers from outside the immediate traditional Rovers catchment area. I always seemed to meet a coach from Somerset and another from Gloucester when I drove up from London for instance.

Even my then home village team in Oxfordshire played in blue and white halved shirts in the season after we won the league and I had nothing to do with that choice although there was another Blackburn lad whose sons might have had something to do with it. The sons of the Chinese take-away (who came from HK) used to wander round in Rovers shirts all the time whilst the enormous half-barking Russian who ran the chippy in the nearby town was a Rovers fan as well!

2) A huge problem for generating support for Rovers now is that whilst we get far more global exposure than when we won the league (in those days Serie A dominated the airwaves internationally) we are always commented upon as the enemy in any live match coverage almost irrespective of whom we are playing. So much so I guess there is a table of TV subscriptions by supporter base which dictates the bias the game summariser takes in the commentary box.

The days of English fairplay and backing the underdog are indisputably long since gone. This bias against us in the commentary is insidious in that we get called out for every foul and every shortcoming quite apart from the raised vocal pitch and excitement when the opposition is threatening our goal making it very difficult for Rovers to attract support because there is zero objectivity from the commentary team.