[Archived] Why Do We Have No Money

[joey_big_nose]

The issue is also that such a huge grab back of cash could take us down. How would that sit with the trustees?

I think its a point worth making that the Trustees aren't taking any money out, they are just levelling the debt. So its not malicious.

From the way I see it the bottom line is they are fed up with running the club and want out. They see this as the most effective way of doing that.

So you could argue that Vinjay/JAL etc are getting what they want. The Trustees are doing everything they reasonably can to sell. Fair enough.

It is arguable that a club in no debt in the Championship but decent infrastructure and some quality players is a more attractive proposition than a debt laden one in the Premiership.

Either way the main thing from the Trustees point of view is to shift the club imo. I don't think they want to damage the club or make any money from it. Just sell it to someone who has the enthusiasm.

[Kelbo]

But, apart from the newly promoted clubs, we have less debts than other clubs!!

[Hughesy]

The issue is also that such a huge grab back of cash could take us down. How would that sit with the trustees?

I understand totally what you are saying - but say we have set a target of 15th for this year.....would you expect our current squad to be capable of achieving it with Sam in charge??

I would, id expect 15th as the minimum.

[joey_big_nose]

But, apart from the newly promoted clubs, we have less debts than other clubs!!

Yes, but I don't think any of the other owners are trying to sell at the moment. We have kept a modest debt, certainly nothing outlandish, but despite being excellently run and reasonably successful no one has wanted to buy us. So the Trustees want to reduce debt further to make us even more attractive.

Again I am only speculating, but it makes sense. We are putting a bit of lipstick on and showing a bit of leg.

[Craigman]

Maybe we should have got in touch with Peter Storrie and his consortium, to see if they were interested in buying us, afterall Portsmouth sold all their players to get a cheaper price for the purchaser of the club.

[Hughesy]

Maybe we should have got in touch with Peter Storrie and his consortium, to see if they were interested in buying us, afterall Portsmouth sold all their players to get a cheaper price for the purchaser of the club.

Same Storrie that was there when they ran up massive debts??

No thanks - JW is the man!

We just need some local multi millionaire to get involved again......Get playing the lotto guys!

[LeChuck]

Where do Bolton get their money to spend on players from?

[Hughesy]

Where do Bolton get their money to spend on players from?

Their owner - Eddie Davies - He gives them the odd £10m to spend here and there!

[leftfooter]

It's not that long since the tide went out on the ITV fizzy pop Championship deal, exposing the fact that several club chairmen had been swimming without a bathing suit.

In the present economic climate, it would be either a very brave or very foolhardy chairman that allowed debt to accumulate beyond current levels.

News Corp reports sky-high losses

'The media giant has announced a loss of $3.4bn for last year as its advertising income plunged in the downturn'.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/51814,news,n...-media-business

News Corp also recently announced that due to falling advertising and other revenue they would have start charging readers that wish to access their online newspaper content (Times/Sun etc...).

[iamarover]

WWJD? That's what the starry eyed Happy Clappies would tell us to do in times of trouble. If you are sat on the horns of a dilemna (an unfortunate analogy since most Christianos are not allowed to sit on anything. Apart from Him of course), then the Good Book Followers of the True Faith tell us to sit down , hands together and look heavenward, asking ourselves..... WWJD?......WHAT WOULD JACK DO?

And what, pray, would he do? Platini would not allow him the largesse that will send the Notts County directors to Guantanemo Bay. His Trust is bollixed anyway based on the unfortunate business base of air travel and property, and hundreds of his Trusts' employees are facing redundancy, pay misery and a terribly uncertain future.

With people who had worked for him all their lives now facing all the unfortunate consequences of a recession: house reposession, poverty, alcoholism, family break ups etc, handing out £3m every year to the Premier League Football Club in the stable would hardly seem the fairest use of his dwindling resources.

Sometimes we lose perspective in football. Rovers have 238 employees according to the last accounts. And staff costs are a shade under £40m. Which means an AVERAGE cost of £168,000 per person. There is absolutely no reason on earth why any Trustee could possibly exercise his professional judgement and say that this is an organisation in need of help. And reasonably he would expect it to be paying off debt.

So WWJD? What he might say, is what he always said. That the club should wash its face. It shouldnt have the responsibility of delivering profit (probably only Fulham are treated in such a way) and ALL revenues it generates should go back to the club, and none on dividends etc the like of which all other Premier League owners are milking out.

He would probably then put it up for sale and hope against hope that there was one bonkers billionaire out there ready to buy the club and donate money. Most of his energies would then be about scrutinising the inevitable suitors for the fair maiden Rover to check out their suitability. Weed out phoney bids, see off the charlatans, asset strippers and ego driven maniacs all with a love of the press and the trappings that come with a Premier League club, but who have their own rather than the Rovers' interests at heart.

Because that is the only thing he could do. And you know what ? That is the only thing his Guardians have done. There is only one way out. Hard graft and a fair amount of skill. Funny that. It could make a great motto one day.

Arte et Labore

[philipl]

But, apart from the newly promoted clubs, we have less debts than other clubs!!

Hull revenue E10.3m, debt E1.1m

Stoke revenue E12.9m, debt E2.6m

Rovers debt E19.6m debt.

If Rovers go down even with "only" E19.6m of debt, the club is totally dead.

I think it is pretty obvious with last year's Ince scare and starting this season in 18th, the Trustees must have had at least thought through the numbers on relegation and decided Rovers need to be close to being debt free.

[joey_big_nose]

So WWJD? What he might say, is what he always said. That the club should wash its face. It shouldnt have the responsibility of delivering profit (probably only Fulham are treated in such a way) and ALL revenues it generates should go back to the club, and none on dividends etc the like of which all other Premier League owners are milking out.

I'm not sure this is true. Fulham can't possibly make any money - their wage bill is larger than ours, stadium smaller, realtively less successful over the last 10 years, season tickets only a hundered quid more than ours, cost of stadium redevelopment, hiring and firing of managers, big transfer fees for the likes of Johnson and Duff, no significant sales beyond Bullard.

I think the bottom line is no one makes any money out of a football club unless you sell it for a much higher price than you bought it (a la Freddy Shepard, or the ex Liverpool and Man Utd boards) - even then you would need to get more profit than money you pumped in.

Football clubs lose money. No way around it. I don't think any board in the league currently holding a club has made a penny from the team net over their period of ownership.

[TimmyJimmy]

Not too sure where to post this, but the comment below is from Sam regarding the signing of Pascal.

"So we made a quick choice based on the players that were available to us in the short space of time."

So it looks like we HAD to sell Warnock, and Sam had to replace him with a right back at very short notice.

So the question is, why did we have to sell Warnock? For the Money, or other reason?

If it wasn't money, then surely Sam should just say NO SALE to Villa.

Face it-we are absolutely desperate for money, and it looks like Sam will truly earn his salary if he keeps us up in the current environment.

Agree with stuwilky. This is the giveaway for me ...

“You can’t stop a player these days. You can criticise this and that but the bottom line is it is done and you have to accept it." so said Sam!

Emphasis on the word Stop. In other words Stevie wanted out, what can we do, nowt so let's get on with life.

I'm as sure as I can be that no one leaves this club without the manager saying it's OK. That's why JW has such a good reputation and is valued as a person to work for, he keeps out of team affairs. If the sales happen and the money comes in then what happens to it is dictated elsewhere and votes for a new player have to get in line with all the other demands on the purse.

[leftfooter]

Yes, but I don't think any of the other owners are trying to sell at the moment. We have kept a modest debt, certainly nothing outlandish, but despite being excellently run and reasonably successful no one has wanted to buy us. So the Trustees want to reduce debt further to make us even more attractive.

Again I am only speculating, but it makes sense. We are putting a bit of lipstick on and showing a bit of leg.

The 'all fur coat and no knickers' approach only attracts the wrong type of suitor. Allegedly.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Hull revenue E10.3m, debt E1.1m

Stoke revenue E12.9m, debt E2.6m

Rovers debt E19.6m debt.

If Rovers go down even with "only" E19.6m of debt, the club is totally dead.

I think it is pretty obvious with last year's Ince scare and starting this season in 18th, the Trustees must have had at least thought through the numbers on relegation and decided Rovers need to be close to being debt free.

That is dogshite: i know for a fact that Stoke have much more debt than Rovers. You are also not including the 20 million the trust have absorbed from dealings of Bentley, Roque, Derbishire and know warnock . The majority will go towards paying the of the clubs small debt.

[Kelbo]

WWJD? That's what the starry eyed Happy Clappies would tell us to do in times of trouble. If you are sat on the horns of a dilemna (an unfortunate analogy since most Christianos are not allowed to sit on anything. Apart from Him of course), then the Good Book Followers of the True Faith tell us to sit down , hands together and look heavenward, asking ourselves..... WWJD?......WHAT WOULD JACK DO?

And what, pray, would he do? Platini would not allow him the largesse that will send the Notts County directors to Guantanemo Bay. His Trust is bollixed anyway based on the unfortunate business base of air travel and property, and hundreds of his Trusts' employees are facing redundancy, pay misery and a terribly uncertain future.

With people who had worked for him all their lives now facing all the unfortunate consequences of a recession: house reposession, poverty, alcoholism, family break ups etc, handing out £3m every year to the Premier League Football Club in the stable would hardly seem the fairest use of his dwindling resources.

Sometimes we lose perspective in football. Rovers have 238 employees according to the last accounts. And staff costs are a shade under £40m. Which means an AVERAGE cost of £168,000 per person. There is absolutely no reason on earth why any Trustee could possibly exercise his professional judgement and say that this is an organisation in need of help. And reasonably he would expect it to be paying off debt.

So WWJD? What he might say, is what he always said. That the club should wash its face. It shouldnt have the responsibility of delivering profit (probably only Fulham are treated in such a way) and ALL revenues it generates should go back to the club, and none on dividends etc the like of which all other Premier League owners are milking out.

He would probably then put it up for sale and hope against hope that there was one bonkers billionaire out there ready to buy the club and donate money. Most of his energies would then be about scrutinising the inevitable suitors for the fair maiden Rover to check out their suitability. Weed out phoney bids, see off the charlatans, asset strippers and ego driven maniacs all with a love of the press and the trappings that come with a Premier League club, but who have their own rather than the Rovers' interests at heart.

Because that is the only thing he could do. And you know what ? That is the only thing his Guardians have done. There is only one way out. Hard graft and a fair amount of skill. Funny that. It could make a great motto one day.

Arte et Labore

What a cracking post, to the point and 100% correct!!

Well done that man

[CAPT KAYOS]

Because that is the only thing he could do. And you know what ? That is the only thing his Guardians have done. There is only one way out. Hard graft and a fair amount of skill. Funny that. It could make a great motto one day.

Arte et Labore

iam - I do believe we are in the same mind

CAPT KAYOS

The way I see it is the wages (+bonusses) are not justified by the performances we have seen for the past 2 to 3 seasons - they are biting us on the bottom, howwever, the club I feel is very aware and is trying to do something about it something we are now seeing the beginnings of and will do more over the next 1 or 2 seasons.

Whether this will benefit us in the long run and keep our premisership status and stature , only time will tell.

Somebody has mentioned about battenning down the hatches and riding the rough to which I am in agreement - I see a big storm coming with a large wave with a lot of boats with holes in that will sink without repair - ours is being repaired as we speak - others will sink.

We can't repair with flimsy workmanship - but we can with some decent materials and the workmen (manager and team + fans) to help.

Replace some of the materials with a new product on the market or of similar and we have the structure and grounding with skill and workmanship to carry out this work.

We will survive and questions need to be asked and answered - however we win together and we lose together - we must also stand together and get behind the team and the club.

ARTE ET LABORE

[iamarover]

iam - I do believe we are in the same mind

Great Minds....

Drink Alike.

AEL

[CAPT KAYOS]

Great Minds....

Drink Alike.

AEL

mines a Guinness thanks

[Kelbo]

Great Minds....

Drink Alike.

AEL

Mines a large scotch

[iamarover]

Mines a large scotch

Never rated Joe Craig.

Amarone. Deep Italian Red. Not related to Amoruso.

AEL

I'm not sure this is true. Fulham can't possibly make any money - their wage bill is larger than ours, stadium smaller, realtively less successful over the last 10 years, season tickets only a hundered quid more than ours, cost of stadium redevelopment, hiring and firing of managers, big transfer fees for the likes of Johnson and Duff, no significant sales beyond Bullard.

I think the bottom line is no one makes any money out of a football club unless you sell it for a much higher price than you bought it (a la Freddy Shepard, or the ex Liverpool and Man Utd boards) - even then you would need to get more profit than money you pumped in.

Football clubs lose money. No way around it. I don't think any board in the league currently holding a club has made a penny from the team net over their period of ownership.

Sorry Joey. We is at cross purposes. All I was saying is that probably only Fulham have owners who at the moment are not (publicly or otherwise) pushing the club to make a profit in order to take out the money they are owed. Your second sentence re inforces why a Buy Out is anything but a dream. All clubs lose money. So, the natural question is, why are you buying the Rovers? Unless they are a rich fan...they shouldnt be. So we agree... really.

AEL. The Only Way Forward.

[Exiled in Toronto]

I think the thread title 'Why do we have no money' is perhaps not the pertinent question. It should be, 'why do we have to liquidate our playing assets to pay off debt now when nobody else does apart from the basket case that is Pompey'? At least 12 clubs start the season with fear of relegation being their primary motive, and have more debt than us, substantially more in most cases, so why aren't they preparing for Doomsday like we allegedly are?

Are we the only club being run 'sensibly' or is it not more likely that, as the only one openly for sale for the last 2 years, our owners are getting harder nosed about getting rid? After all, their position has moved from 'supporting the club for the forseeable future' to 'looking for an owner to continue Jack's legacy' to 'want out'.

For all the post-rationalisation on here, no-one predicted or advocated selling 30 million worth of talent and spending 11 million on replacements this summer.

[philipl]

That is dogshite: i know for a fact that Stoke have much more debt than Rovers. You are also not including the 20 million the trust have absorbed from dealings of Bentley, Roque, Derbishire and know warnock . The majority will go towards paying the of the clubs small debt.

Oh dear, got out of bed the wrong side today?

Go back and read the thread. You will notice that I contradict the article and recognise the numbers to be 2006/7 season.

The simple issue was that at June 2009, Rovers debt was the equivalent of two seasons' total income in the second level excluding parachute payments. Any responsible board of a club that has started out the season in 18th place would sort that out pronto whilst they could.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Oh dear, got out of bed the wrong side today?

Go back and read the thread. You will notice that I contradict the article and recognise the numbers to be 2006/7 season.

The simple issue was that at June 2009, Rovers debt was the equivalent of two seasons' total income in the second level excluding parachute payments. Any responsible board of a club that has started out the season in 18th place would sort that out pronto whilst they could.

No I didn’t get out of bed on the wrong side. I am just pig sick of the board/trust moving the goalposts. Firstly- it was “we not investing any money into the club”, and then it was “you have to sell to buy “now we are faced with a situation- that we have to sell to stay afloat.

This is in the face of the club making an actual profiut during the last finical cycle and making a circa 15 million profit (gross) on player trading. I am frankly disgusted that the board/trust has taken the stance we should sell off our assets, in case we go down- this is after only two premiership games.

The finances are not that bad- infant compared to most comparable clubs they are extremely healthy. The minimum a Premiership manager should expect is to be able to spend the money they themselves generate. Anything else is both unsustainable and ultimately doomed to lead to relegation.

[onlyoneDuff]

If anyone other than the trustees owned the club, after this season's tranfer dealings that owner would be accused of asset stripping, pure and simple