[Archived] Why Do We Have No Money

[broadsword]

Players' wages and the trustees' trousers - it's not difficult to work out.

Surely transfer profit isn't used to fuel players' wages, otherwise what would happen to their wages in years we didn't make a profit.

It's been appropriated by the trustess.

[tony gale's mic]

Point is does it matter? Especially when one considers the current crippling debt situations at so many other Prem clubs. Viewed in that respect and with our support and income it's something for the board to be congratulated for. Isn't it?

I don't think so much should have been taken away in one fell swoop. You need to spend money to make money, and when the only major new purchase we can afford is an unproven young Croatian striker with our midfield situation still unresolved, then that's simply unacceptable. To ensure we continue to prosper as a club we need to ensure we have a squad that has little danger of going down, and I'm afraid this summer we have not done this as a club. People may berate Sam for it but he can only work with the money he's given.

With so much being sucked out over the last couple of years, would £5m on a quality midfielder have been too much to ask?

[martonrover]

I don't think so much should have been taken away in one fell swoop. You need to spend money to make money, and when the only major new purchase we can afford is an unproven young Croatian striker with our midfield situation still unresolved, then that's simply unacceptable. To ensure we continue to prosper as a club we need to ensure we have a squad that has little danger of going down, and I'm afraid this summer we have not done this as a club. People may berate Sam for it but he can only work with the money he's given.

With so much being sucked out over the last couple of years, would £5m on a quality midfielder have been too much to ask?

Spot on. Just after Ince was sacked I remember John Williams stating that the Club must make every effort to ensure it did not end up in such a perilous position again.

Clearly that warning has not been heeded.

We know the Club has to sell to survive but there has to be a balance.

A small leak has now turned into a waterfall.

[JAL]

Everybody talks about players in players out transfer fees but what about the alledged £2.9m building bill and the loss of match income due to reduced ticket sales ?

In all around £7-8m lost.

[den]

Everybody talks about players in players out transfer fees but what about the alledged £2.9m building bill and the loss of match income due to reduced ticket sales ?

In all around £7-8m lost.

How much have we lost on ticket income this season JAL?

[joey_big_nose]

How much have we lost on ticket income this season JAL?

I'm pretty sure its only a million or one and a half. £100 a season ticket x 15000 holders = 1.5 million, minus the addittional takeup.

Compared to sky money it is extremely small beer.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Spot on. Just after Ince was sacked I remember John Williams stating that the Club must make every effort to ensure it did not end up in such a perilous position again.

Clearly that warning has not been heeded.

We know the Club has to sell to survive but there has to be a balance.

A small leak has now turned into a waterfall.

Could it be that the club has held back some funds for January ? Bottom line - with our current wage bill, we don't generate enough money for transfers without selling somebody. We have sold two of our best assets over the summer - and have to rely on somebody now coming good to generate the next sale - keeping some back would be a wise move.

It is a very difficult balancing act - that I wouldn't like to take on. There is the prospect of additional money from league placing if the right player is brought in - balanced against an increasing wage bill and little chance of big money from our benefactors.

I can't trawl through all these pages - but has anyone considered the impact of the economic downturn on the Trust ? Could it be that the Trust have told Rovers they can't afford any more hand outs in the current economic circumstances (I will leave it to other people to speculate whether a potential sale holds the trustees back from putting money into Rovers). This leaves Rovers in a difficult position - with debt to service - against a back drop of banks not wishing to invest in risky deals. Gamble all on not addressing the current debt and wage bill - against a longer term strategy - that could blow up in their faces if we are relegated.

[JAL]

How much have we lost on ticket income this season JAL?

Dont know its all speculative.

A bit like the transfer fees only the people who matter really know what the actual amount of money that is being spent or blown. Dont you think its very good of the club to keep the fans guessing.

At the end of the day does it really matter what somebody elses financial business is providing the results on the pitch are positive.

[tony gale's mic]

Could it be that the club has held back some funds for January ? Bottom line - with our current wage bill, we don't generate enough money for transfers without selling somebody. We have sold two of our best assets over the summer - and have to rely on somebody now coming good to generate the next sale - keeping some back would be a wise move.

It is a very difficult balancing act - that I wouldn't like to take on. There is the prospect of additional money from league placing if the right player is brought in - balanced against an increasing wage bill and little chance of big money from our benefactors.

I can't trawl through all these pages - but has anyone considered the impact of the economic downturn on the Trust ? Could it be that the Trust have told Rovers they can't afford any more hand outs in the current economic circumstances (I will leave it to other people to speculate whether a potential sale holds the trustees back from putting money into Rovers). This leaves Rovers in a difficult position - with debt to service - against a back drop of banks not wishing to invest in risky deals. Gamble all on not addressing the current debt and wage bill - against a longer term strategy - that could blow up in their faces if we are relegated.

True but not spending enough is going to make relegation much more likely to happen.

If we got relegated and had a net of zero from this summers activities (rather than the considerable "profit" that was made), I don't think we wouldve been in that bad of a financial position compared to other relegated clubs, as long we removed some players from the wage bill.

[RibbleValleyRover]

It is a very difficult balancing act - that I wouldn't like to take on.

Indeed it is.

Selling your best players and replacing them at a fraction of the price is great if you can find a player that is as good or better than the one you just sold. If this isn't the case then you will find yourself in all likelihood finish lower in the league and dumped out of competitions early thus reducing the amount of prize money/league placement you receive.

We rely heavily on there being 3 teams that are worse than us and don't spend their money wisely. If one season they get it right then i can see us being in serious trouble...

[joey_big_nose]

Indeed it is.

Selling your best players and replacing them at a fraction of the price is great if you can find a player that is as good or better than the one you just sold. If this isn't the case then you will find yourself in all likelihood finish lower in the league and dumped out of competitions early thus reducing the amount of prize money/league placement you receive.

To be fair the fact of the matter is that in Rovers history since 2000 all of our good signings have been "cheapies". The big outlays have been unsuccessful apart from Cole who you could still argue didn't really give us as much as Benni or Cruz or Bellamy who were a lot cheaper.

JW could look at it and say - well there seems to be no indication that the more moeny we have spent has signed us better players (Grabbi, Ferguson, Kevin Davies etc.), indeed if there is any corrolation it seems to be we get our best players from free to 4m (Tugay, Brad, Warnock, Bentley, Nelsen, Givet, Samba, Emerton, Niell, Bellamy, Benni, Cruz etc etc). So why spend more?

There is a logic to that.

If you look across at the 5m+ transfers by clubs like us over the last couple of years its a real mixed bag. For every Tuncay there is a Alves, for every Johnson there is an Elmadander....

[CrazyIvan]

To be fair the fact of the matter is that in Rovers history since 2000 all of our good signings have been "cheapies". The big outlays have been unsuccessful apart from Cole who you could still argue didn't really give us as much as Benni or Cruz or Bellamy who were a lot cheaper.

JW could look at it and say - well there seems to be no indication that the more moeny we have spent has signed us better players (Grabbi, Ferguson, Kevin Davies etc.), indeed if there is any corrolation it seems to be we get our best players from free to 4m (Tugay, Brad, Warnock, Bentley, Nelsen, Givet, Samba, Emerton, Niell, Bellamy, Benni, Cruz etc etc). So why spend more?

There is a logic to that.

If you look across at the 5m+ transfers by clubs like us over the last couple of years its a real mixed bag. For every Tuncay there is a Alves, for every Johnson there is an Elmadander....

There does seem to be a correlation between cost, expectation and pressure. Take players we've signed for little money and the performances they've put in week-in week-out and the less money paid, the more freedom they seem to play with. Big money signings for us (apart from Cole who had already been signed by Man U for a higher fee previously so maybe that doesn't count...) have tended to flop. I'm hoping Kalinic doesn't fall into that camp.

It would be interesting to see a real study on this. The only players who seem to cope with big fees tend to be world-class players or/and who have supreme confidence in their abilities. Shearer was world-class. Cole was arguably a world-class club player (didn't cut it at National level...), Ronaldo © is world-class, Zidane etc. Grabbi was a world-class failure unfortunately.

[American]

There has been a study. Haven't seen the full thing, but the basics I heard were that money spent on transfers has about a 20% correlation to finishing position. Spending on wages has around an 80-90% correlation.

[Graham Fenton]

There has been a study. Haven't seen the full thing, but the basics I heard were that money spent on transfers has about a 20% correlation to finishing position. Spending on wages has around an 80-90% correlation.

I hope money's not going missing like it did at bolton and newastle

[stuwilky]

What money went missing at Bolton and Newcastle?

[Paul]

There has been a study. Haven't seen the full thing, but the basics I heard were that money spent on transfers has about a 20% correlation to finishing position. Spending on wages has around an 80-90% correlation.

Certainly the wages theory has long been at the centre of Rovers thinking. How accurate it is would be interesting if anyone has the energy to find and compare individual club wage bills with final positions over 5 - 10 years. JW often mentions this as principal part of the club's budgeting. Part of Rovers problem seems to be we have to pay more to attract players so this would skew the arguement somewhat.

[John]

Interesting article on Middlesbrough's finances: Lamb: Sales saved Boro from catastrophe

[Stuart]

Interesting article on Middlesbrough's finances: Lamb: Sales saved Boro from catastrophe

Some interesting comments from Boro fans at the bottom of that article. They sound like us!

[Anti Euro Smiths Fan]

Minus £18m in the summer - the Jersey Boys have left us deep in the mire....

We're a team that only narrowly avoided relegation last season, finishing 15th. Apart from the three relegated clubs, there were only two other teams below us - Hull and Sunderland. The warning signs should have already been there. Did the Jersey Boys really think that things would be much better this season giving the manager a pitiful transfer budget in the summer of minus £18m?

We sold approximately £30m worth of players and only spent around £12m. You could argue that Sam hasn't spent the £12m wisely - Kalinic hasn't looked a world-beater so far and we've signed plenty of full-backs and failed to address a long-term midfield problem. However the Jersey Boys haven't exactly been over-generous in providing funds for the manager have they? Do the faceless Jersey trustees actually understand football? I fear not.

After today's bitterly disappointing shambles at Goodison Park it's clear to me that we've got massive problems. Paul is absolutely right below:

It gives me no pleasure at all but we need to wake up and smell the coffee. This team is not good enough

The team wasn't good enough last season and it's certainly not good enough this season. We are involved in another ugly dogfight to survive because of the inadequacy of the squad.

If Sam manages to keep us up this season what will the Jersey Boys do next summer, assuming they are still there? Will it be another transfer budget of around minus £18m? How long do the Jersey Boys think that this can go on for before we eventually succumb to relegation? Because make no mistake we will eventually be relegated if there's a continual big transfer surplus in terms of selling players for much more money than we spend.

Clearly the Jersey Boys no longer want to own our club. They are no longer interested in even providing the means for the manager to spend as much money on players as he makes in sales. It's desperately disappointing that the trustees are not willing to provide some of the expenditure in the transfer market that the Rovers team desperately needs.

We're all realistic enough to know that our transfer budget cannot compete with the big four anymore - however we must be able to compete with the smaller teams struggling in the Premiership otherwise we're facing a very bleak future indeed. At the moment teams like Sunderland and Stoke are spending much more money than Rovers. We're fighting huge cannons with tiny water pistols from ourselves - and there's barely even a drop of water in our little pistols.

The manager is not of course entirely immune from blame for today's gutless shambles against Everton. I think he picked the wrong team and he had the wrong tactics. Salgado was not ready for the team today and he shouldn't have been picked. Allardyce the "expert" is actually a manager with flaws. He's certainly not infallible - and if there's anybody that thinks he's infallible and never gets things wrong then I'm afraid they are mistaken.

Allardyce isn't perfect. He's made mistakes and I question whether he spent the minus £18m available to him in the summer in the right areas. However the Jersey trustees haven't exactly helped matters by being so tight-fisted.

Allardyce says he doesn't like the fact that we're a selling club that has to sell it's best players. The fans certainly don't like it either. John Williams sounds rather unconvincing when he tries to claim that we are not a selling club, but a trading club instead. Who are you trying to kid Mr Williams? Most fans can see that the owners are happy to sell all of our best players - Warnock, Santa Cruz, Bentley etc - and then not give the manager the money in return to spend.

It seems that Allardyce and Williams are not entirely singing from the same hymn sheet this season. The manager is right when he says that sadly we've become a selling club. Mr Williams sounds like the Captain of the Titanic, saying "Don't panic. Everything will be fine boys and girls."

We have got massive problems and anybody who believe otherwise has, I fear, got their head very firmly in the sand and is refusing to face up to reality. That reality is that if the present owners remain in charge, unless the Jersey trustees loosen the purse strings and at least enable the manger to spend what he makes in sales, then we are facing an extremely bleak future. We will eventually be relegated if the policy continues of selling our best players and failing to spend the money gained in sales.

Is this really what Jack wanted? I don't think so. I don't think he would have been happy with the complete shambles on display at Goodison Park today. Jack deserves better than that. But do the trustees - who want to sell the club and no longer provide the necessary expenditure for our club - actually care?

These are extremely worrying times for the long-term future of our football club. I'm desperately disappointed with the situation at the club - and I think Jack would be hugely disappointed too.

[DanLad]

Never mind...

[nick123]

Totally agree with the above, the word DESIRE is woefully missing from those who make the decisions at our beloved club...

Maybe we dont belong in this money bloated league, but we are there and we will stay there for this season at least.

what makes this weekends events hard to stomach are the deeds taking place a little way down the M65... there you see desire on and off the pitch, all pulling together for the cause.......

Something that is long gone from our club. The fans are now the silent cash cow, no say, no voice and told to go away and shut up if they dare speak out..

[stuwilky]

Something that is long gone from our club. The fans are now the silent cash cow, no say, no voice and told to go away and shut up if they dare speak out..

Yeah, those season tickets are a right rip off.

[FourLaneBlue]

Totally agree with the above, the word DESIRE is woefully missing from those who make the decisions at our beloved club...

Those who make the ultimate financial decisions for Rovers are businessmen based in Jersey and not fans. We are selling club because the club does not make enough money to be anything but that unless we can find an owner who is happy to throw his money away. Even some clubs which have found such a person suffered far worse in the long run. Look at the likes of Newcastle, Middlesbrough and Portsmouth.

[ABBEY]

they are stu..they should pay us

[nick123]

so we are now a business...still says football club on my badge not PLC