[Archived] This Will Stop Jordans Plan

[Ianrally]

Wow! I thought I had died and gone to Heaven for a minute there, Aggy. Definitely just like old times. But just one more thing; can we have the old terracing back and the old Riverside stand as well? Then it really would be Heaven.

Oh yes, and one more thing for perfection: Artur Ellis back reffing again!

Not forgetting to reinstate the Blackburn End gent's bogs.

[tony gale's mic]

for all the people who supported this crackpot idea on the basis of the extra rumoured £5 million a year, now do you believe our arguments that this money would effectively be swallowed up by wage inflation and other extra costs in light of JW's explanation of where the extra £14 million this year has gone?

[neekoy]

It is mute now anyway, all the markets the PL were looking to 'inflatrate' have said no. It would diminish their own domestic competitions.

[roversmum]

for all the people who supported this crackpot idea on the basis of the extra rumoured £5 million a year, now do you believe our arguments that this money would effectively be swallowed up by wage inflation and other extra costs in light of JW's explanation of where the extra £14 million this year has gone?

I'm not quite sure why anyone would believe it would not - but if the others would be getting it I'd want it for Rovers too.

I'm getting a bit depressed with what I perceive as negativity around the club at the moment. No money for transfers, no decent club shop, "nothing wrong with the tannoy system" - er then why doesn't it sound right (sometimes the seemingly small things can make a big difference) - no enhancing the club's profile abroad - are we in a comfort zone perhaps because if we are it doesn't bode well for the future.

Personally I'd like to see Mark Hughes and his boys around for a while but unless the club shows more ambition it's not going to happen.

[den]

I'm not quite sure why anyone would believe it would not - but if the others would be getting it I'd want it for Rovers too.

I'm getting a bit depressed with what I perceive as negativity around the club at the moment. No money for transfers, no decent club shop, "nothing wrong with the tannoy system" - er then why doesn't it sound right (sometimes the seemingly small things can make a big difference) - no enhancing the club's profile abroad - are we in a comfort zone perhaps because if we are it doesn't bode well for the future.

Personally I'd like to see Mark Hughes and his boys around for a while but unless the club shows more ambition it's not going to happen.

That's the way I'm feeling at the moment RM.

It's like the club [and chairman] have taken a 5 year backward step to the Souness era. As someone said to me recently, we're back to the ""Overachieving" "Punching above our weight" blah blah blah" years.

Or is it just the SAD taking a stranglehold?

SAD

[Exiled_Rover]

That's the way I'm feeling at the moment RM.

It's like the club [and chairman] have taken a 5 year backward step to the Souness era. As someone said to me recently, we're back to the ""Overachieving" "Punching above our weight" blah blah blah" years.

Or is it just the SAD taking a stranglehold?

SAD

I appreciate the honesty. Williams is being realistic, rather than shouting about finishing in the Champions League places without spending a penny in the January transfer window (when our rivals, who have already vastly outspent us in the summer, did). If it continues, the fear is that we'll lose Hughes to a Chairman who can promise him money, but that's the way the market works.

[OscarRaven]

I too like the honesty but it speaks volume for the state of the game....

Lets be clear we are breaking even and sitting in the top half of the league because we have a talented manager, not chairman. Its too scary a prospect to speculate and shoot for 4th as Leeds are a testimony to such failure.

So the league is more about economics than competition. Financial security and competitiveness are not compatibility.

Look forward to the next decade... when the top 10-15 becomes sown up, with 2 poor performers and the promoted teams the only ones contesting in the premier league.

Invest in the fizzy pop league, this years FA Cup is doing wonders for real football. Bunker football and no competition means that fans (well the ones not addicted to their arm chairs, hype and SKY propaganda) will look elsewhere.

[RevidgeBlue]

That's the way I'm feeling at the moment RM.

It's like the club [and chairman] have taken a 5 year backward step to the Souness era. As someone said to me recently, we're back to the ""Overachieving" "Punching above our weight" blah blah blah" years.

Agreed.

I thought we'd got rid of that sort of mindset around the club when Mark Hughes came in like a breath of fresh air and made those remarks about expectations having been deliberately set low.

[joey_big_nose]

Agreed.

I thought we'd got rid of that sort of mindset around the club when Mark Hughes came in like a breath of fresh air and made those remarks about expectations having been deliberately set low.

To be fair the club has been extremely positive this season. Bentley, Savage (when he was here), Cruz, Hughes, Nelsen have all come out and said the team was aiming to get fourth. I'm pretty sure JW was talking us up at the start of the year.

The downplaying I guess is the result of a horrific Christmas run caused, imo, by Nelsen's loss of form and many teams figuring out how to seriously hurt us on the break. Fourth now is a serious long shot by anybody's estimation. It is a shame as we have a squad which is well balanced and has an enormous amount of talent irrespective of the fact it cost us very little to put together. But key performers last season have been out of sorts and we are struggling.

We should always aim high, but also acknowledge the fact that we are doing very well right now too and be realistic about it.

As far as not releasing money for transfers- there clearly was some. We went after Koumas so I would hazard a guess we had around 3 million to spend. But the price tag placed on him and our other identified targets meant we couldn't get him. There just wasn't a lot available for the budget we have.

We are up against it.

[92er]

I wonder how many competitions we can do well in in any season.

We need to do well in at least one other than the Premiership but I'm not sure if we have a big and good enough one to actually compete in 4.

And we have to bear in mind the financial consequences of success in competitions other than the Premiership, compared with doing well in the league. After all, each higher position brings in a significant amount of money but success in Europe highers our profile and makes it easier to bring in players.

So, I want us to be as successful as possible to broaden the appeal of the club, and for financial reasons.

MH, however, who I would like to keep with us for a good few years, has to take some responsibility for our exits from all 3 cup competitions; we should have been able to beat all the teams that knocked us out, even including the mighty Arsenal. After all, we had got it back to 2-2, they had a player sent off, then for some unknown reason, we went back to 4-4-2 when Benni came back on and they opened us up again.

In all 3 cases we could have produced more income etc, and we really need to kick on in the league to compensate financially for those losses and make sure we benefit from the lower number of games we are playing.

[philipl]

Total climb down by Scudamore

Cannot help but feel that whatever replaces it will be worse for Rovers. That said, the way Scudamore seems to handled this was really dumb. That's a second major false move following on from the West Ham fiasco.

[only2garners]

Total climb down by Scudamore

Cannot help but feel that whatever replaces it will be worse for Rovers. That said, the way Scudamore seems to handled this was really dumb. That's a second major false move following on from the West Ham fiasco.

The Independent has the same story with the almost reverse conclusion, that the PL's postponement of the meeting has been welcomed by FIFA and the 39th game plan remains alive as a result. (Sorry I don't seem to have worked out how to do the link).

The 39th game was discussed at last night's Fans' Forum. Tom Finn was keen to get feedback from fans and a process was being put in place for the PL to get that feedback. Indeed we may well have a PL representative at a future Forum meeting to take that feedback. The PL's plan is to take until next January to make a final decision. The club's position is that it is inevitable that the PL brand will be exported overseas in some form and that if it is not done collectively by all the league then the top clubs will find some way of doing it themselves. They recognise that there are lots of problems with the proposals as they stand and most of these were recognised by chairmen at the original meeting. The club expect that some form of development may well happen but that it may well not be the current proposal.

[roversmum]

Mr Roversmum is convinced - and I believe others have mentioned it - that this is a prelude to cutting the Premier League to 18 teams

[den]

So what views did the FF put forward?

[CAPT KAYOS]

Mr Roversmum is convinced - and I believe others have mentioned it - that this is a prelude to cutting the Premier League to 18 teams

So am I Roversmum, but not just for that reason.

This has been touched upon before on here, including by myself but the way it is going it is heading for what we all suspected and there will be no Relegation or Promotion as we know it now - but moreso by 'invitation only' if you are classed as big enough club and have the money - this will also be with the intention to include Celtic and Rangers if they so want-effectively getting to the Super League that they have beeen clambouring for now for sometime.

There are major warning signs to me here (have been for a while) for us fans as well as those that care about the game about their sole intentions.

AS I KEEP SAYING - WHY THE HELL DO THEY NEED MORE MONEY!!!

- to dole it out to tosspots like Ashley Cole!!

They are already global with the 'advertisement' of the P/L with the various Television /media outputs that show the games ....

Overall, the bottom line to it which for the life of me I can't understand why people just cannot take into their heads is that this is our tradition/ league/ structure and has bugger all to do with anybody else.

Its akin to bringing the Kentucky Derby over to Ascot or the Australian Rules league over to the UK etc...

[Fife Rover]

So am I Roversmum, but not just for that reason.

This has been touched upon before on here, including by myself but the way it is going it is heading for what we all suspected and there will be no Relegation or Promotion as we know it now - but moreso by 'invitation only' if you are classed as big enough club and have the money - this will also be with the intention to include Celtic and Rangers if they so want-effectively getting to the Super League that they have beeen clambouring for now for sometime.

There are major warning signs to me here (have been for a while) for us fans as well as those that care about the game about their sole intentions.

AS I KEEP SAYING - WHY THE HELL DO THEY NEED MORE MONEY!!!

- to dole it out to tosspots like Ashley Cole!!

They are already global with the 'advertisement' of the P/L with the various Television /media outputs that show the games ....

Overall, the bottom line to it which for the life of me I can't understand why people just cannot take into their heads is that this is our tradition/ league/ structure and has bugger all to do with anybody else.

Its akin to bringing the Kentucky Derby over to Ascot or the Australian Rules league over to the UK etc...

I totally agree with all that Capt. The problem seems to be that although it is perfectly plain to some of us which way the game is heading, others obviously either cant or dont want to see it. As you all know there are a small band of us on here that have been trying in our different ways to make the dangers clear for others to see and to think about, we have unfortunately been largely crying in the wilderness. I find it slightly more encouraging to note that now the Fans Forum at Rovers will be able to at least put the geniune fans concerns and fears before the club, and possibly via that same forum to the EPL as well. Hopefully the word will spread and other clubs that have a FF will do the same.

It is only by the fans themselves making the clubs and the EPL aware as to what they (the fans) will tolerate and what is NOT acceptable that we have any hope of keeping at least some sort of control over the game we all love so much.

[only2garners]

So what views did the FF put forward?

We did not put forward one view as the Forum, but individual members gave their opinions. I would say that a majority but by no means all members were against and if against they were strongly against. A few feel that, as the club does, that there is an inevitability about some form of overseas development and that it's better for Rovers if it's done collectively rather than letting the richer clubs go off and do it themselves, which will happen if there's no collective agreement. I think both the club and those Forum members not completely dismissing the idea all feel that the current proposals are not right and will need changing. I suspect that that mix of views last night fairly closely resembles opinions on this thread i.e. a majority against but a minority willing to consider some form of development.

[roversmum]

Well it's really quite simple isn't it? You're either in it or not - if the fans want Rovers to be a Championship Club rather than a Premier League Club it can be easily arranged..... and probably sooner rather than later

[Fife Rover]

We did not put forward one view as the Forum, but individual members gave their opinions. I would say that a majority but by no means all members were against and if against they were strongly against. A few feel that, as the club does, that there is an inevitability about some form of overseas development and that it's better for Rovers if it's done collectively rather than letting the richer clubs go off and do it themselves, which will happen if there's no collective agreement. I think both the club and those Forum members not completely dismissing the idea all feel that the current proposals are not right and will need changing. I suspect that that mix of views last night fairly closely resembles opinions on this thread i.e. a majority against but a minority willing to consider some form of development.

OK I accept that that is fair comment O2G.

My worry still is that unless the clubs and the EPL are MADE to recognise the dangers to themselves in their ill conceived rush to even more riches, then it will still happen in a slightly changed and watered down way as a sop to the fans views. The net result will STILL be more and more money (our money) going into the pockets of the already super-rich players with no actual benefit to any of the clubs as such, or to the paying public either.

[CAPT KAYOS]

Well it's really quite simple isn't it? You're either in it or not - if the fans want Rovers to be a Championship Club rather than a Premier League Club it can be easily arranged..... and probably sooner rather than later

But that's the issue Mum - it will be a Premier League (one division) and we may be in it - but it won't be competitive in a sports way... just a financial way absolute. If it was the case that we would also be part of it maybe just initially (no guarantee), but I am certain we wouldn't be for very long.

As a club , every fan wants us to remain in the 'Premier' .. but only when that is classed as the top of the Divisional Structure we have for the English/British game and not when it is on an 'Invitation basis only'.

Yes there has to be development - but that has to be for the good of the game in Sporting terms - and not for the Financial Gains to individuals which is the only thing I can envisage for any project geared in this direction.

[b12_simon]

But that's the issue Mum - it will be a Premier League (one division) and we may be in it - but it won't be competitive in a sports way... just a financial way absolute. If it was the case that we would also be part of it maybe just initially (no guarantee), but I am certain we wouldn't be for very long.

As a club , every fan wants us to remain in the 'Premier' .. but only when that is classed as the top of the Divisional Structure we have for the English/British game and not when it is on an 'Invitation basis only'.

Yes there has to be development - but that has to be for the good of the game in Sporting terms - and not for the Financial Gains to individuals which is the only thing I can envisage for any project geared in this direction.

Capt we don't always agree but I'm with you 100% here.

[Fife Rover]

But that's the issue Mum - it will be a Premier League (one division) and we may be in it - but it won't be competitive in a sports way... just a financial way absolute. If it was the case that we would also be part of it maybe just initially (no guarantee), but I am certain we wouldn't be for very long.

As a club , every fan wants us to remain in the 'Premier' .. but only when that is classed as the top of the Divisional Structure we have for the English/British game and not when it is on an 'Invitation basis only'.

Yes there has to be development - but that has to be for the good of the game in Sporting terms - and not for the Financial Gains to individuals which is the only thing I can envisage for any project geared in this direction.

Once gain Capt: You've got in one!!

Still a big worry as to what we can do about it. Thinking caps on chaps and chapesses.

Personally I feel that the FF can be a really effective platform to convey the fans views if it is used properly to ascertain the true majority feeling of the fans, and then to input these views at the forum in a completely impartial and unbiased way. I accept that this might entail the delegates at the meeting having to do some research before the meeting, and to make sure that they dont shrink from inputting the true majority opinion; even if it is not exactly or even anywhere near their own opinion. Such is the burden of an elected delegate.

I realise too that our delgates at the FF are not elected and are just there as persons in their own right. But it should be possible to set-up a truly representative FF by polling the members of all the various Fans MB's and groups. With each one of them putting up a number of willing candidates for election. It would then be the duty of the elected candidate(s) to ensure that they had got a true feeling and understanding of their own electors views to be able to find out what the majority views are. It would probably need one or two meetings of all the elected members before the actual FF meeting with BRFC. This would be to discuss and agree what the majority views of all Rovers fans that have replied to their reps questions actually are, and then this and no other interpretation should be agreed to be the "party line" for the FF.

Just a suggestion: An easy and effective way for each of the fans MB's to gather and consolidate the views and opinions of their own members would be to have a pinned thread devoted to collecting members views for the elected delegates to analyse. This same thread could also be used to find candidates for the FF rep's job and for the members to vote on, with a time limit set beforehand (eg 1 week) for votes to be cast. After that the Admin would declare the result of the election and the person or persons elected could then begin the task of reading and collating the members views and opinions.

[only2garners]

Personally I feel that the FF can be a really effective platform to convey the fans views if it is used properly to ascertain the true majority feeling of the fans, and then to input these views at the forum in a completely impartial and unbiased way. I accept that this might entail the delegates at the meeting having to do some research before the meeting, and to make sure that they dont shrink from inputting the true majority opinion; even if it is not exactly or even anywhere near their own opinion. Such is the burden of an elected delegate.

I realise too that our delgates at the FF are not elected and are just there as persons in their own right. But it should be possible to set-up a truly representative FF by polling the members of all the various Fans MB's and groups. With each one of them putting up a number of willing candidates for election. It would then be the duty of the elected candidate(s) to ensure that they had got a true feeling and understanding of their own electors views to be able to find out what the majority views are. It would probably need one or two meetings of all the elected members before the actual FF meeting with BRFC. This would be to discuss and agree what the majority views of all Rovers fans that have replied to their reps questions actually are, and then this and no other interpretation should be agreed to be the "party line" for the FF.

Just a suggestion: An easy and effective way for each of the fans MB's to gather and consolidate the views and opinions of their own members would be to have a pinned thread devoted to collecting members views for the elected delegates to analyse. This same thread could also be used to find candidates for the FF rep's job and for the members to vote on, with a time limit set beforehand (eg 1 week) for votes to be cast. After that the Admin would declare the result of the election and the person or persons elected could then begin the task of reading and collating the members views and opinions.

I think the difficulty in trying to get a representative Forum is in finding constituencies that actually represent all fans' groups. This site is well represented with at least 5 members on the Forum, but it's unlikely that as a group we are truly representative of the fan base - those who contribute to a site like this will not be typical. For example there are a lot of fans from outside the north west who naturally struggle to get to Ewood regularly or at all. They have a valid opinion of course but there are an awful lot of our 15,000 ST holders don't post on here or probably any website - how do we properly represent them? Also what other websites have a regular group of Rovers fans, except the official site, for which you can probably get a good view of teenage fans' opinions but not much else?

Having said that, since I took over as secretary 12 months ago I have tried to use this site as a sounding board for fans' opinions that I can then take to the Forum. You will see that I have posted an update today on this thread and the club shop thread and started a new one on Umbro shirts. Whilst I'm on there as an individual I like to think I also try to convey the general view of fans.

However, I'm open to any practical ideas to make the Forum more representative for all fans. It does look like we may have an opportunity to influence the debate on the 39th game through this route direct to the Premier League.

[Billy Castell]

The 39th game stuff is a crock of poo. All the foreigners will flock to the Man Utd vs. Liverpool type games as loads are glory seeking types. The effect would be the top teams get more £, whilst us, Wigan etc. will be seen as making up the numbers, like non-Old Firm Scottish teams. Anyone who supports this idea wants the game to go to the dogs and the money men, and should go to watch the Manchester Red Sox and see some sawker involving pansies who are obsessed with the latest blingmobile.

There is also a huge number of practical problems. Imagine if you will, that Arsenal and Man Utd are the top two teams, and the 39th game throws up the following fixtures:

Man Utd vs. Derby (Sydney)

Arsenal vs. Aston Villa (New York)

These are the following problems:

1. Man Utd have a much easier game and can expect a win. Arsenal may come a cropper.

2. Would the games be played at the same time? The British audience would surely like to see their teams, which can lead to some interesting kick off times for the players. The difference in climate in the two cities could also play a part.

3. The knock on effect could be that Man Utd's longer journey back to Britain could damage their preparations for the next game.

Personally speaking, if this idea gains support from the Premiership, the Coca Cola leagues and below should leave the Premiership, as should all the teams not in the Big 4 (or should that be big 5 now ) and declare themselves the 'real football'. The FA would then have to choose between the hundreds of clubs that make up the fabric of the native game, or a handful of 'Harlem globetrotters' owned by money grabbing foreigners who trumpet hollow noises about loving the game of sawker.

Even if one of the 38 games were played abroad, it would be terrible for both us, and the host nation's domestic leagues.

The Premiership has become such a greedy, disgusting, pathetic, ego driven puss bag of a league I actually don't really fear relegation. If it happened, we would lose our better players, but at least the petty playground sniping, the name calling and the sheer distorted avarice of the top clubs and many of the better known players would be far from our door. Relegation would take us to the roots of football, and away from the poncy childish showbiz. Well, that's the silver lining to such a situation.

[only2garners]

The 39th game stuff is a crock of poo. All the foreigners will flock to the Man Utd vs. Liverpool type games as loads are glory seeking types. The effect would be the top teams get more £, whilst us, Wigan etc. will be seen as making up the numbers, like non-Old Firm Scottish teams. Anyone who supports this idea wants the game to go to the dogs and the money men, and should go to watch the Manchester Red Sox and see some sawker involving pansies who are obsessed with the latest blingmobile.

There is also a huge number of practical problems. Imagine if you will, that Arsenal and Man Utd are the top two teams, and the 39th game throws up the following fixtures:

Man Utd vs. Derby (Sydney)

Arsenal vs. Aston Villa (New York)

These are the following problems:

1. Man Utd have a much easier game and can expect a win. Arsenal may come a cropper.

2. Would the games be played at the same time? The British audience would surely like to see their teams, which can lead to some interesting kick off times for the players. The difference in climate in the two cities could also play a part.

3. The knock on effect could be that Man Utd's longer journey back to Britain could damage their preparations for the next game.

Personally speaking, if this idea gains support from the Premiership, the Coca Cola leagues and below should leave the Premiership, as should all the teams not in the Big 4 (or should that be big 5 now ) and declare themselves the 'real football'. The FA would then have to choose between the hundreds of clubs that make up the fabric of the native game, or a handful of 'Harlem globetrotters' owned by money grabbing foreigners who trumpet hollow noises about loving the game of sawker.

Even if one of the 38 games were played abroad, it would be terrible for both us, and the host nation's domestic leagues.

The Premiership has become such a greedy, disgusting, pathetic, ego driven puss bag of a league I actually don't really fear relegation. If it happened, we would lose our better players, but at least the petty playground sniping, the name calling and the sheer distorted avarice of the top clubs and many of the better known players would be far from our door. Relegation would take us to the roots of football, and away from the poncy childish showbiz. Well, that's the silver lining to such a situation.

You make some good general points but some of your assumptions are wrong, with the current proposals. The 39th game will not be the last - it will be played in January, although as you say it could throw up some combinations which would affect the final league table (and this reason is enough for me to be against it). The matches won't be played at the same time, but they don't need to be as it wouldn't be the last match. As they will be in different time zones they will be able to be played throughout a UK day from morning to night back to back - ideal for the couch potatoes for whom this is designed. The jet lag won't be a problem as the 4 teams going to one city will play another of the 4 on the following weekend i.e if in your example Man Utd, Aston Villa, Rovers and Wigan all went to Sydney, we would play one of Man Utd and Aston Villa on the following weekend.