[Archived] Education, Education, Education

[Flopsy]

bingo, we the electorate demand better schools, the only empirical way of finding out is to test the pupils to see what they've learnt.

[jim mk2]

... and because government needs to show the education system is delivering the results exams are made easier.

[Flopsy]

the exams are set by private companies, but dont let that get in the way of a good rant.

Exams are different from 20 years ago, its not about what you can remember and parrat, its about what you know and can argue about.

According to an Ofstead inspector I spoke to about it.

[Hannah]

What about the single level tests in Primary schools that the government are refusing to report on at the moment because that trial has fallen flat on it's face!!!

We are taking part in a trial across the country called Assessing Pupils Progress. It is aiming to abolishing testing at the end of Year 6 and to test children when they are ready. We have to teacher assess and say this child is a level 4 and here is the evidence to prove it. The children then sit a level 4 test. Unfortunately this hasnt worked as the children have not passed these tests (and this isnt just in our school) because children have in the past sat papers with level 3, 4 and 5 questions on them. If they get all the level 3 questions right and a handful of level 4's then they achieve a 4. In this new paper they just have level 4 questions and they can't do it!

Let's see what they come up with next for us to do!!!

[JAL]

....... and I hope you and he are very happy together !

Read and learn.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/aug/26/alevels.gcses

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_...ticle656188.ece

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article688111.ece

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article503131.ece

Not only A-levels easier, they can also be taken in the so-called "soft options", ie non-academic subjects that proper Russell group universities rightly see as lacking intellectual rigour.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_...icle1084917.ece

http://education.guardian.co.uk/alevels/st...2259108,00.html

Record exams results have not come about because kids are brighter or work harder, or that teachers are better than in previous generations; the exams are easier, end of story.

So why did all those involved in running schools, colleges, universities etc.,during these changes accept these changes in the first place-why? are they just as much to blame as the government

for letting down so badly our nation.

[JAL]

The sad fact is that QEGS has always had a poor track record in terms of what it produces from the quality of the raw material that goes in. Its value add is low and has been arguably ever since Kemball-Cook ceased to be Headmaster in the mid-60s.

The introduction of league tables has only served to highlight this reality which is another significant factor in the town's decline. Nobody looking for a top day school is ever going to come to Blackburn in the basis of QEGS whilst many of the town's brightest and most advantaged children are let down by the school.

I am not writing on the basis of personal experience- I was OK- but looking at it dispassionately. QEGS is out-performed by the majority of the schools it would regard as its direct competition.

Seems if Blackburn is too survive Qegs must raise its game by delivering for the local population,in order for the town to prosper otherwise Blackburn is always going to have to 'buy in' knowledge to help run the town and its (whatever is left) industries.

When will this ineffective cycle be broken and by who but thanks for pointing out certain shortcomings in our local school 'philipl' its an extremely important issue that affects us all in one way or another.

[blue phil]

the exams are set by private companies, but dont let that get in the way of a good rant.

And who determines who gets the contracts ?

And how long would they last if their exams didn't reflect the "success" of the ruling party's education policies ?

Personally I don't believe a word the government says on the subject of education - I've seen enough with my own eyes to know that standards have slipped . Those who don't have a vested interest in the system and to whom it matters a great deal , employers , tend to take my point of view .

Anyway , if the education system is so great why do we live in such a brutalised nation so obsessed with celebrity and the like ?

Why does Blackburn only have one half decent theatre (and that needs security guards !) ?

....and why can't the average barmaid add up £2.20 and £0.80 without going to the till ?

[philipl]

Seems if Blackburn is too survive Qegs must raise its game by delivering for the local population,in order for the town to prosper otherwise Blackburn is always going to have to 'buy in' knowledge to help run the town and its (whatever is left) industries.

When will this ineffective cycle be broken and by who but thanks for pointing out certain shortcomings in our local school 'philipl' its an extremely important issue that affects us all in one way or another.

I don't know what the Govenors have thought they have been doing these last 40 years but they managed to select headmasters with massive character flaws. I am not going to write on here what I am aware of about two of them- I should imagine the town's tittle tattle has shared it around.

[BuckyRover]

And who determines who gets the contracts ?

And how long would they last if their exams didn't reflect the "success" of the ruling party's education policies ?

Personally I don't believe a word the government says on the subject of education - I've seen enough with my own eyes to know that standards have slipped . Those who don't have a vested interest in the system and to whom it matters a great deal , employers , tend to take my point of view .

Anyway , if the education system is so great why do we live in such a brutalised nation so obsessed with celebrity and the like ?

Why does Blackburn only have one half decent theatre (and that needs security guards !) ?

....and why can't the average barmaid add up £2.20 and £0.80 without going to the till ?

And I suppose people who left school at 14 to work down the pit were regular Einstein's were they?

More children can read and write today, than 10,20,30 etc. years ago.

No rose tinted spectacles can change that fact....

[blue phil]

Rose tinted spectacles don't come into it . More or less all kids can read and write , there's no denying that ; but to what meaningful extent do they exploit that to the full ? Many do but masses don't .

Recently I finished a biography on Dickens . The extent to which our greatest author (IMO) was hero worshipped and mobbed in the streets by ALL sections of society was a revelation to myself . The Pickwick Papers for example was the equivalent of the soap opera of today and slightly more culturally beneficial than a series of Eastenders ....

Today that kind of cultural appreciation amongst the "working classes" has been massively diluted . (I know my two kids went through school without being taught Dickens ...and it'd be damn hard task to get them reading it now through choice without that foundation ...)

TV and other forms of popular culture have been greatly responsible for the erosion of "high" culture - but nothing will convince me that government policies in recent decades have bordered on the criminally negiligent in the field of education .

[Flopsy]

What is high culture? Ballet? Opera? Theatre?

From all I've heard reciepts for all of these are up, as is the number of people (and kids) reading books.

As much as some people slag of Harry Potter, its got lots of kids (and adults) who would not usually pick up a book, into reading. So thats a good thing.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Jim,

This is what I call evidence: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7268778.stm

As for high culture, I'm still to be convinced that an episode of Eastenders is culturally significant as Shakespeare. Eminem as great as Stravinsky? Not having it. This man had it right: http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/art/index.htm

[jim mk2]

Jim,

This is what I call evidence: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7268778.stm

Evidence of government meddling, which has been going on for the past 40 years. Nothing new there.

If you want evidence that exams are easier look at the links I provided.

[thenodrog]

....and why can't the average barmaid add up £2.20 and £0.80 without going to the till ?

More children can read and write today, than 10,20,30 etc. years ago.

No rose tinted spectacles can change that fact....

Thats as may be Bucky but BP was commenting on rithmatic, not reading and riting. And it is fact, it's now so rare for the likes of shop and bar staff to show an ability to use mental arithmatic that I find it necessary to offer praise when I come across it. My favourite trick is to have the exact money ready and waiting for them when they return from reckoning up on the till. Sad maybe but I do subscribe to the 'use it or lose it' theory.

[thenodrog]

This man had it right: http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/art/index.htm

Communism really works only in theory. People are not equal and no form of government will change that. There are the elite and the rest in all fields. Your puerile and embittered attitude to Qegs is symptomatic of socialist systems where it appears preferable in practice to drag everybody down to a level rather than aiming to elevate as many as possible to a higher standard. Paul imo you would be better engaged in questioning why state comprehensive education is frequently found to be sub standard to the fee paying sector. It certainly wasn't in the days of the Grammar schools and I do not want to hear the old 'funding' argument trotted out in order to cover much more basic and obvious reasons.

I didn't attend QEGS and neither did I pay for my childrens education either but one thing that I do feel is that people who decide to pay for their childrens education (and very many families have to really tighten their belts to do so... they are not all rich by any means) should not have to pay for the education of other peoples children as well. To criticise those people from a perspective of envy is reprehensible imo.

I notice that you could have sat the entrance exam to QEGS and that you were actually offered a place at CGS, but you refused both. To whinge about your education now sounds plain silly. For whatever reason whether it was your decision or your parents you did have your chance and you chose to reject it. You say you have done well enough since so all well and good then, but I guess it will always niggle that you might have done so much better if you had not chosen to cut off your nose to spite your face all those years ago.

[colin]

....and why can't the average barmaid add up £2.20 and £0.80 without going to the till ?

Possibly because they have been told to do it, you know what it's like in most pubs nowadays - they all have to key in their names & clock in all the transactions.

My favourite trick is to have the exact money ready and waiting for them when they return from reckoning up on the till. Sad

That's two of us saddos then, I like doing that too.

[BuckyRover]

Thats as may be Bucky but BP was commenting on rithmatic, not reading and riting. And it is fact, it's now so rare for the likes of shop and bar staff to show an ability to use mental arithmatic that I find it necessary to offer praise when I come across it. My favourite trick is to have the exact money ready and waiting for them when they return from reckoning up on the till. Sad maybe but I do subscribe to the 'use it or lose it' theory.

I do exactly the same thing myself. Because I can.

I still think it is unfair to criticise though. These are very low grade jobs. Akin to working down the mines in the past.

Miners certainly didn't have to use the three R's whilst down the pits.

Even the lowest jobs in today's society normally expect you to be PC literate and educated to a certain standard.

This wasn't required for low grade jobs of the past

[thenodrog]

I still think it is unfair to criticise though. These are very low grade jobs. Akin to working down the mines in the past.

Miners certainly didn't have to use the three R's whilst down the pits.

Even the lowest jobs in today's society normally expect you to be PC literate and educated to a certain standard.

This wasn't required for low grade jobs of the past

Bit unfair that Bucky. Poor transport and a closed isolated upbringing meant that many miners..... and shipbuilders and farmers and fishermen etc etc never had any options but to follow their fathers. IQ levels were rarely a consideration.

100 or so years ago like as not we'd all be employed in Blacburn by King Cotton one way or another.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Communism really works only in theory. People are not equal and no form of government will change that. There are the elite and the rest in all fields. Your puerile and embittered attitude to Qegs is symptomatic of socialist systems where it appears preferable in practice to drag everybody down to a level rather than aiming to elevate as many as possible to a higher standard. Paul imo you would be better engaged in questioning why state comprehensive education is frequently found to be sub standard to the fee paying sector. It certainly wasn't in the days of the Grammar schools and I do not want to hear the old 'funding' argument trotted out in order to cover much more basic and obvious reasons.

I didn't attend QEGS and neither did I pay for my childrens education either but one thing that I do feel is that people who decide to pay for their childrens education (and very many families have to really tighten their belts to do so... they are not all rich by any means) should not have to pay for the education of other peoples children as well. To criticise those people from a perspective of envy is reprehensible imo.

I notice that you could have sat the entrance exam to QEGS and that you were actually offered a place at CGS, but you refused both. To whinge about your education now sounds plain silly. For whatever reason whether it was your decision or your parents you did have your chance and you chose to reject it. You say you have done well enough since so all well and good then, but I guess it will always niggle that you might have done so much better if you had not chosen to cut off your nose to spite your face all those years ago.

Talking of puerile and embittered.... Hi Theno, you must have had some time of your hands to read through this lot.

Where to start? OK, how many kids know anything about schools aged ten? Not me, so there you go. I didn't "refuse" to do anything, I just went to my local school like most children do - didn't give it a moment's thought I guess.

For what it's worth the wife thinks I've got a chip on the shoulder too (she went to an Irish grammar school) so maybe there's something in it. There's newt really radical about my views here, not sure they're even socialist. I mean, do any of the main parties advocate a return to the 11plus?

Maybe a better education and you have really put the knife in Theno. Arf arf!

BTW the Trotsky (murdered by the 'communists')thing was a bit of a joke and Jim, the link I posted supports your argument rather better than the links you posted. But heh, why let the facts get in the way?

Bored now.

[thenodrog]

Where to start? OK, how many kids know anything about schools aged ten? Not me, so there you go. I didn't "refuse" to do anything, I just went to my local school like most children do - didn't give it a moment's thought I guess.

The Jesuits coined the term "Give me the boy until he is 7 and I'll show you the man" and imo it is very accurate. Kids at 10 do know where they should be going. I desperately wanted to pass my 11 plus and attend a local Grammar school and I did. I too had a stubborn streak though and daft buggerr that I was I rejected the option of then sitting the QEGS entrance exam when both my mother and my primary school teacher wanted me too. This life is not a rehearsal. Golden opportunities are rare and they don't often present themselves for a second helping. Without question you blew a great opportunity, you should have gone to CGS when you were offered, a fine school in a good catchment area.

[Paul Mellelieu]

The Jesuits coined the term "Give me the boy until he is 7 and I'll show you the man" and imo it is very accurate. Kids at 10 do know where they should be going. I desperately wanted to pass my 11 plus and attend a local Grammar school and I did. I too had a stubborn streak though and daft buggerr that I was I rejected the option of then sitting the QEGS entrance exam when both my mother and my primary school teacher wanted me too. This life is not a rehearsal. Golden opportunities are rare and they don't often present themselves for a second helping. Without question you blew a great opportunity, you should have gone to CGS when you were offered, a fine school in a good catchment area.

Strange, I had you down as a secondary modern sort.

[thenodrog]

Strange, I had you down as a secondary modern sort.

Sorry I've never been in a lower tier educational establishment in my life so I'll just have to bow to your superior knowledge of the subject in this instance.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Ah come on, crack a smile.

[thenodrog]

Sorry I've never been in a lower tier educational establishment in my life so I'll just have to bow to your superior knowledge of the subject in this instance.

Ah come on, crack a smile.

I did have rather a smug one when I was typing that last post Paul. Bit like this..... .

[92er]

The Jesuits coined the term "Give me the boy until he is 7 and I'll show you the man" and imo it is very accurate. Kids at 10 do know where they should be going. I desperately wanted to pass my 11 plus and attend a local Grammar school and I did. I too had a stubborn streak though and daft buggerr that I was I rejected the option of then sitting the QEGS entrance exam when both my mother and my primary school teacher wanted me too. This life is not a rehearsal. Golden opportunities are rare and they don't often present themselves for a second helping. Without question you blew a great opportunity, you should have gone to CGS when you were offered, a fine school in a good catchment area.

According to google, it's ................................. and I'll give you the man.