[Archived] Dna Database - Yes Or No?

[colin]

All mobile phone calls are recorded and can be used for evidence,

CCTV can spot you doing whatever you do when you go out.

On the good side of this they caught some driver who knocked a collegue of mine off his bike and drove off.

I'm OK with DNA testing, apart from the fact that it's treated as infallible. The case of Sally Clarke* is enough to make me

a bit wary of scientific evidence alone to bring a prosecution.

On the other hand the Stephan Kiszko/ Leslie Molseed case showed that DNA evidence can right wrongs.

*The expert witness testified that the chances of her two children dying of natural causes was "x in a million" so she not only lost her kids, but she was put in prison.

[PAFELL]

All mobile phone calls are recorded and can be used for evidence,

CCTV can spot you doing whatever you do when you go out.

On the good side of this they caught some driver who knocked a collegue of mine off his bike and drove off.

I'm OK with DNA testing, apart from the fact that it's treated as infallible. The case of Sally Clarke* is enough to make me

a bit wary of scientific evidence alone to bring a prosecution.

On the other hand the Stephan Kiszko/ Leslie Molseed case showed that DNA evidence can right wrongs.

*The expert witness testified that the chances of her two children dying of natural causes was "x in a million" so she not only lost her kids, but she was put in prison.

The Police knew all along that Stephan Kirsko was innocont all along - they withheld the fact he was impotent - therefore incapable of rape - This conviction was the deliberate action of the Police needing a conviction for the crime - the preasure upon them at the time meant - it didn't matter who went down, innocent or guilty. Being convicted for a crime you didn't do is a lot easier than proving you were innocent all along.

[Paul]

To me, freedom is being able to travel across the country without being monitored whether I like it or not - the key to me is not having a need to monitor and I feel much of the "CCTV and stuff" is addressing a symptom of a wider malaise in society rather than the root causes; being attacked by some drug-fuelled yob who ought to be at home is a relatively recent phenomenon the cause of which ought to be addressed.

I can agree with that but at the same time I'm not at all worried by being monitored. In fact until we had the incident with the young person I described above I had no idea how extensive CCTV is. This lad's journey was tracked for 4 miles. Amazing really.

Ensure sufficient support to be able to keep an eye on people

Don't get me started! This is an organisation entirely run by three people. Finding enough people to help monitor the group is a nightmare, and as for money!!!. I could go on but won't, but if anyone has £10k a year they'd like to donate send me a PM.

Lock the exit

Ah but we don't lock "normal" young people and children inside a sports hall. A major part of our group is to provide these youngsters with an ordinary outlet for their energies

Ask people in the area if they have seen someone resembling a description of the missing person

Not very realistic TBH

I know I'm setting myself up to be knocked down with this, especially when it comes to missing children and catching violent muggers and the like, and to an extent I can agree, but I do feel it worth asking if the invasion of individual privacy and liberty has gone too far and that, once again, we find ourselves having to tolerate something we shouldn't have to just so that the minority can be managed at the expense of the desires of the majority. As I said, we should address the causes not the symptoms.

I wouldn't try to knock you down on this as I'm not desperately worried about it. I don't feel my privacy is in anyway invaded. I only raised this example as one of many positive aspects of CCTV. I would love to think our government would have the courage to tackle the issues mentioned. Regretably finding sufficient money to help those less able to help themselves is extremely difficult, and a growing problem for adults. As for Den's yobs the only true answer for me lays in education. We have 30 or more years of governmental experiments and interference in education which has resulted in an huge underclass totally lacking respect for society. How on earh we turn these people into useful members of society God only knows.

For me freedom would be to be able to go into Chorley on a Saturday night, perhaps have a drink or meal and a wander around. To go in a pub and find it's a pleasant experience. Doesn't have to be Chorley. These freedoms have been taken from me by a violent, drunken, drug-fuelled, disrespectful element of society. If CCTV is the price for moving these people on so be it.

I've solved this problem fo myself. We don't visit the town at night. I wouldn't go into Chorley or Blackburn for any form of entertainment, the chances of a bad experience are too great. We're not a part of this group that is "too frightened" to go go out, that's mainly media dramatics, but we've chosen to avoid these very unpleasant people. Our money and all the benefits to our local economy go elsewhere which in turn fuels the problem.

[Flopsy]

I wouldn't try to knock you down on this as I'm not desperately worried about it.

Plus it would get caught on CCTV and you'ld get done for assualt

[Cheshireblue]

If you could guarantee that the goverment wouldn't lose the records / sell them / abuse the information / release them on e-bay, then I'd back a DNA database. But as you can't then the current system is OK with me. If you get arrested, you get tested and recorded. If you don't get arrested, you never appear on the database.

The vast majority of crime is committed by a small number of people, the overwhelming majority of whom are repeat offenders.

The two recent cases show that whilst it might take longer, the police can still get there in the end.

[blue phil]

For me freedom would be to be able to go into Chorley on a Saturday night, perhaps have a drink or meal and a wander around. To go in a pub and find it's a pleasant experience. Doesn't have to be Chorley. These freedoms have been taken from me by a violent, drunken, drug-fuelled, disrespectful element of society. If CCTV is the price for moving these people on so be it.

I've solved this problem fo myself. We don't visit the town at night. I wouldn't go into Chorley or Blackburn for any form of entertainment, the chances of a bad experience are too great. We're not a part of this group that is "too frightened" to go go out, that's mainly media dramatics, but we've chosen to avoid these very unpleasant people. Our money and all the benefits to our local economy go elsewhere which in turn fuels the problem.

The vast , vast majority people feel exactly the same way ......and the thing is that the places you can go for a quiet night out are diminishing all the time . Anti- social behaviour in GB is incredible - you only need to venture abroad to see the difference .

And all this despite the fact that we are the most monitored nation on earth .

Now that suggests to me that those causing the trouble just don't give a toss about CCTV . Nor would they give a toss about a DNA databank .

The reson they don't give a toss is because the the deterrent and/or punishment if they get caught (and for "low level" offences they aren't even chased up) has virtually ceased to exist .

The government are putting the cart before the horse . Catching criminals is pointless if the justice system neither punishes nor deters .

Pick up your local newspaper and have a look at the low level offenders who have (quite literally) in many cases dozens of similar offences to their name . What would the benefit to society be of adding their DNA to that of the law abiding ? Absolutely none

We already know who the criminal and yobs are - we have simply lost the collective will to punish them . Everything you hear from this worthless government is simply spin and bluster .

[adopted scouser]

This government has cut the balls off the Police force and rebranded them the Police 'service'.

I'm 1864 would like to comment on video here. Years ago he would have been on the receiving end after spouting that crap, nowadays the fluorescent jackets are powerless.

Makes me sick.

[American]

It scares me more that this doesn't worry people.

[Paul]

It scares me more that this doesn't worry people.

Obviously there are security implications with regard to identity fraud etc but beyond that i can't see why the average law-abiding citizen should be concerned. We already quite willing give all sorts of information to many different organisations without even batting an eyelid, why worry about this.

Anyone with a Tesco clubcard provides that company with probably more info about their lifestyle than the government has!

[broadsword]

I think there's a philosophical aspect to this.

The government would like to know your chemical make-up in order to prevent crime. I mean, DNA makes you what you are, right?

It's invasive, unnecessary and I don't trust the civil service not to make an almighty cock-up of handling the data. Don't I have the right to some privacy?

The buck has got to stop somewhere, otherwise the boundaries will keep on getting rolled back. We might as well all have chips implanted so that the govcernment knows where we are. Or perhaps the telescreens from 1984.

Not good at all.

[American]

Obviously there are security implications with regard to identity fraud etc but beyond that i can't see why the average law-abiding citizen should be concerned. We already quite willing give all sorts of information to many different organisations without even batting an eyelid, why worry about this.

Anyone with a Tesco clubcard provides that company with probably more info about their lifestyle than the government has!

DNA can tell you a lot about people. Would you want to have your neighbor's DNA checked to see if they are gay? If they are an alcoholic? If they have any other tendencies?

If you want the government to know all about you and control your life, you are free to move to Cuba or China....

[colin]

Would you want to have your neighbor's DNA checked to see if they are gay? If they are an alcoholic? If they have any other tendencies?

I'm not too sure that your DNA can tell anyone about those features. I thought it was just a personal imprint that you get in the womb and it's yours just like a fingerprint.

Like a fingerprint it just identifies who you are, but you leave it around a bit more.

Happy to stand corrected.

[American]

DNA tells about your makeup. If properly looked at, it can show your eye colour, your hair colour, your penchant for baldness, your parentage (and lets not go into the ramifications for parents who put their kids up for adoption), amongst other things. It shows how you are made, kind of like the blueprint for your body.

[Paul]

I have to accept I know very little about the potential implications of a DNA database. TBH it doesn't concern me a great deal and so I've not read the subject in the press at all. I am at a loss to understand the concern if one is a law-abidding citizen? Two points I'd raise in all seriousness:

Anyone who has a supermarket reward card, credit card etc willingly gives those companies huge amounts of personal data on a daily basis. A friend of mine, about to retire and wanting to plan his financial budget, rang Tesco asking if they could send him some details on his annual food bill. By e-mail he immediately received a fully itemized report of everything he had purchased in the previous two years, broken down by category etc. We are encouraged to sign up for "rewards" and freely hand this very valuable data to Mr Tesco. Now why does he gives "rewards?" because the data is worth 10 times what he gives away. Do you not think Mr Tesco is very subtely manipulating your every purchase?

In my youth 1984 was a book one had to read, and we've made sure our children read it. Much of Orwell's prophecy has come true, 20 odd years late perhaps but true all the same. We welcome in to our homes media technologies which are very invasive. Right now there could be a piece of software running somewhere which is monitoring every key stroke I make. Ever thought about how much Google know about your activities and interests? And you think that data is safe? That nice Mr Google would never exploit you? Mr Gates just wants to develop better computer software to improve our lives.

Given we live in a free society, and whatever one's political views or opinions on past and present governments, we are governed by people who are basically decent and crucially we have the ability to remove them if they prove otherwise. If this is true why worry about a DNA database when millions happily give away their data to the likes of Tesco and Sainsbury. We even pay Sky, BT, eBay, Amazon etc for the privilege of having our data farmed on a regular basis.

I'm not trying to be trite or flippant about this. I don't see the logic of the arguements. The government want a DNA database in an attempt to resolve issues many complain about. Mr Tesco and Mr Murdoch want our data so they can exploit our weaknesses. Who should we worry about?

Even Blackburn Rovers are in the game. Why else do we have electronic STs? OK it's not a very big deal but Rovers collect data on our habits each time we pass through a turnstile. Why are we comfortable with that?

This website knows my approximate location right now!

[Alan75]

the thing is that the places you can go for a quiet night out are diminishing all the time . Anti- social behaviour in GB is incredible - you only need to venture abroad to see the difference .

Have to agree with that comment.

Attended a night out Friday and booked into a hotel to allow a few beers to go down.

At the same hotel there was a charity function for breast cancer....yet youths attended ended up having a brawl in the hotel foyer. Unbelievable.

[American]

Paul - not to quote your whole post, but the difference is you willingly give Tesco this information. When you pay by credit card/bank card, you willingly let the bank know where you spend your money. If you want to give your DNA to a database, that's fine, just don't make everyone else.

[colin]

DNA tells about your makeup. If properly looked at, it can show your eye colour, your hair colour, your penchant for baldness, your parentage (and lets not go into the ramifications for parents who put their kids up for adoption), amongst other things. It shows how you are made, kind of like the blueprint for your body.

So DNA doesn't tell anyone details about being gay, or an alcoholic, or being a Burnley supporter which all happens after you are born. Have I got this right?

Can you expand on how it can tell your hair colour & eye colour please. Sorry, not trying to be awkward, just trying to learn a bit more.

I just thought DNA could just identify a person from a bit of saliva or urine or semen. I didn't think it could do so much more.

[American Rover12]

So DNA doesn't tell anyone details about being gay, or an alcoholic, or being a Burnley supporter which all happens after you are born. Have I got this right?

Can you expand on how it can tell your hair colour & eye colour please. Sorry, not trying to be awkward, just trying to learn a bit more.

I just thought DNA could just identify a person from a bit of saliva or urine or semen. I didn't think it could do so much more.

When spliced down far enough and when used with the most up to date technology, DNA can tell almost every genetic trait about a person.

[American]

So DNA doesn't tell anyone details about being gay, or an alcoholic, or being a Burnley supporter which all happens after you are born. Have I got this right?

Can you expand on how it can tell your hair colour & eye colour please. Sorry, not trying to be awkward, just trying to learn a bit more.

I just thought DNA could just identify a person from a bit of saliva or urine or semen. I didn't think it could do so much more.

Allegedly they have identified genes that show a pre-disposition to both being gay and being alcoholic....

[blue phil]

I just thought DNA could just identify a person from a bit of saliva or urine or semen. I didn't think it could do so much more.

Your DNA can tell interested parties when and how you are likely to die ( unless of course you don't have a nasty accident beforehand ) .

Personally I don't want the police , insurance companies , government , or even the health service having that knowledge . I don't even want it myself . If my doctor should ever want it I'd like him to ask first .....

In a "free" society is that asking too much ?

[broadsword]

I really do think the word is "invasive"

I really can't imagine a more personal piece of information, yet some people are blithely willing to volunteer it because they have nothing to hide.

I mean, because of minority of people who commit crime, the majority have to volunteer sensitive personal information. And it's not as if it's going to *prevent* crime, it just helps the Police (apparently, and this is up for debate) catch the criminal, *after* the crime has been committed.

I will not volunteer my personal details when a far moire rational solution is available - let teh Police get on with their job.

[den]

Your DNA can tell interested parties when and how you are likely to die ( unless of course you don't have a nasty accident beforehand ) .

Personally I don't want the police , insurance companies , government , or even the health service having that knowledge . I don't even want it myself . If my doctor should ever want it I'd like him to ask first .....

In a "free" society is that asking too much ?

I reckon you're scaremongering there BP. I doubt that it can tell all parents at the birth of their child that information. Of course it can tell some people, in some cases, that they have genes that could make them susceptible to certain diseases. That's entirely different.

[LeftWinger]

Your DNA can tell interested parties when and how you are likely to die ( unless of course you don't have a nasty accident beforehand ) .

I can see it now - collecting the post one morning to see a load of direct mail to the missus from funeral companies. Be a lovely start to the day!

[Jimmy Jupiter]

A lot of people have wild imaginations on this thread