[Archived] Birmingham Last Game

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I don't often agree with Eddie but 90% of his recent post is bang on. What separates the players at winning clubs from the guys we have is mainly down to one thing- mental toughness- the ability to keep playing when things aren't going for you, the ability to keep making the right decisions at speed under pressure . Ability comes into it of course but we've got enough players with enough ability, what we haven't got is enough players with that mental toughness- Shearer had it in the old days that's mainly why we won the Prem. It's been a Rovers failing all the years I've watched the club to be honest.

I also couldn't see Villa winning at West Ham, Villa were playing below par and no way would the Hammers want to go out on a home loss, it's just our players are in the Ewood Park comfort zone and they didn't fancy another early start to their season after last year.

[92er]

Although no-one else has referred to it, I thought Rover6 did an excellent summing up of the season.

[1864roverite]

Tyrone look at the following and tell me its down to mental toughness.

Clichy - Warnock

Toure - Nelsen

Hleb - Tugay

Rosicky - Bentley

Adebayor - RSC

Bendtner - Roberts

Rooney - McCarthy

Ronaldo - Vogel

Ferdinand - Samba

Gerrard - Dunn

Torres - Derbyshire

Lampard - Emerton

Dogbreath - Roberts

Cole J - MGP

I think it is skill, scraft and speed versus ability. mental toughness does not apply.

[S15]

No bloody wonder is it? The vast majority of younger supporters are bloody gormless!............. No wait!..sorry Shillitoe I'm being unfair, let me expand upon that..... it's not just being gormless it's just that those under 30 are too young to have any insight or memory of the real and very cruel economics of professional football. We are damned lucky to be supporting a small club that is more than punching it's weight at the top table, most younger supporters cannot rem the days before Jack Walker threw his wallet at the club and imo most of em would be supporting MU / Lpool rather than a small town club with a shiity outdated ground yo-yoing between Divs 2 and 3 or whatever you want to call em nowadays if he had not done!

Okay, that is a fair post Drog.

However, that isn't our fault, and I imagine in the bigger picture those older fans are happy Jack Walkers reign bought such supporters to the club, local kids who may have been swayed otherwise. There is no point resenting the fact.

I agree but don't relate basically, but to me, from the perspective of discussing our season (all merely from a football point of view), how it's gone, how it's finished, how it could have gone, signings (etc etc blah blah) I personally think the vast majority of Eddies posts are spot on. Of course, some wont, so let's discuss without being someone victimised due to the fact we don't remember the days when we were much further down the spectrum.

I don't think anyone is dissappointed by 7th place, and of course like 1864Roverite pointed out, progress has been made on a few fronts.

However, I think the biggest positive is the fact that there is a decent amount of us feeling that we could/should have finished one or two places higher.

[ABBEY]

Okay, that is a fair post Drog.

I personally think the vast majority of Eddies posts are spot on. Of course, some wont, so let's discuss without being someone victimised due to the fact we don't remember the days when we were much further down the spectrum.

.

hes not being victimised for gods sake ...he wants to punch people on the nose(his words ) for not agreeing with him and he reckons hughsey is an expletive idiot.

[S15]

What?

[den]

For goodness sake, the topic is Birmingham Last Game. Let's keep to the topic.

Please leave the squabbling out.

[Neil Weaver]

Eddie and the over reactors (good name for a band), if I might make an observation..........

With age comes a thing called 'perspective'. At the risk of sounding like Trin Tragula's wife, it's why some of the more, errrrr senior, folk on here hark back to days past. Understand your point of view, and maybe some of our football this season hasn't been as pleasing on the eye as it has been in the past, but maybe it's worth thinking whether fans of just about every other club in the league would settle for what we've got. Just my view, but I think most would, including MU fans shortly after being doubled by that bunch who lost 8-1 yesterday.

In the meantime, good luck with the invention - fairy cake's a very precious commodity.

[Ozz]

Tugays last appearance...?....taken before the game at Brum.

Feel free to save for you wallpaper!!

[Hughesy]

Hughesy who? Me or Mark? Ha ha, who cares!

hes not being victimised for gods sake ...he wants to punch people on the nose(his words ) for not agreeing with him and he reckons hughsey is an expletive idiot.

Anyway back on topic. Was there any trouble with the locals at birmingham the other day? Noticed on the tele that after the pitch invasion they appeared to be infront of the away end???

[American]

Simply pointing out eddie there must be strength and quality in the squad because most of it performed way below what we know it can do or had done 12 months earlier and we still came 7th. That's all.

Not making excuses, just explaining reality that the assertions of the squad strength compared with previous years was actually proven by what happened.

I think the fact they performed "below what we know it can do" shows that it wasn't as strong as some of us thought to begin with, that we just overrated some of the players in it....

[Tom 1]

Hard luck guys, was at Upton Park and we were getting your scoreline through, none of us could believe it. Am obviously glad you ###### it on the last game, and in truth we easily should have beat West Ham based on chances, but fact is we'd both have walked into Europe on these points tallies last season, just a shame the likes of Pompey/Cardiff and Spurs can rip it away from better teams through the cups.

[JAL]

eddie, the current squad was one crap performance at Brum away from getting to 6th.

I think we have demonstrated the squad depth in that the backbone of the side went AWOL for at least half the season and we still got 7th.

McCarthy lost form dramatically

Savage was a busted flush from early on and completely lost his mobility to such an extent we were glad to take £1.5m for him

Dunn and Reid didn't recover their form of old

Tugay's legs are gone

MGP had a very poor season until beginning to recover in March

We didn't get a specialist central midfielder until 6 games from the end

Nelsen came back from injury sub par and got worse until having to take 6 weeks out

The most promising youngsters were all either suffering injuries or out suspended when the openings became available

Derbyshire ended the season carrying a double hernia which made him a tiny bit part player at the end.

...and we were bottom of the Fair Play league again with joint highest number of sending offs.

If you had written that as the script for 07/8 season at the beginning of August last year when the Premier League Table forecasts were being made, I don't think many people would have suggested a top half finish, never mind being gutted with only getting 7th.

It shows that the club did have great resources within the 22 players it used during the League campaign.

With what you say there philipl, for me it shows that unless there is some quality additions made over the summer the position Rovers acheived this season is not going to be aheivable next season far from it.

All the players you mention above for me need to be turned around and fresh legs brought into replace them with the sole exception that is of young Matty Derbyshire.

[philipl]

With what you say there philipl, for me it shows that unless there is some quality additions made over the summer the position Rovers acheived this season is not going to be aheivable next season far from it.

All the players you mention above for me need to be turned around and fresh legs brought into replace them with the sole exception that is of young Matty Derbyshire.

For what its worth:

McCarthy may or may not recover his first season form. One or more of three factors seem to have played here- his head not straight, rubbish distribution from midfield, the Premier League worked him out. I think there is a 50/50 chance the first season Benni will come back.

Savage is not coming back but Vogel looks to be a quiet efficient operator who I'd say is a 75/25 chance to be a very decent EPL defensive midfielder who will keep ball posession.

Dunn and Reid I am pessimistic about now and I guess so is Hughes hence the focus on a midfielder as the main acquisition target. 25/75 that either of them will get back to their best.

Tugay unlikely to stay and not much evidence he can still be much use coming off the bench 10/90

MGP improved to some sort of level- 5 goals in the last 12 games I think- but not much evidence he can hurt the opposition. 33/67 that we will see much more improvement on the level he has reached at the season end

Nelsen I think is getting back to his best which is one of the EPL's top defenders. Very optimistic on this one 80/20

Of the youngsters only Olsson impresses and he has Warnock ahead of him. 50/50 he becomes a permanent feature on the bench

Derbyshire- I hope it is the injury that is holding him back but I suspect the lack of physique and being one notch below killer quick will hold him back. 25/75

Disciplinary and injury absences - I guess last season was in reality average so 50/50

The key to next season is whoever the big signing in midfield is really producing the goods. A really high quality box-to-box midfielder who can impose himself, pass and score goals and we are going to be in great shape.

I expect that Sparky will also be rummaging around in the bargains and probably two more new faces will arrive as well who will be challenging for first team starts.

My gut feel at the moment is that Bentley will be at Rovers next season with Spurs when they've sold Berbatov the biggest worry about taking him off us. I think Abramovich wants exciting signings which Bents isn't and Liverpool are probably going to be too disorganised for too long. If he is going out of the UK, anywhere other than Barca, Real, Bayern, Juve, Inter or AC is a mega-career risk for him and there is no indication that any of those are calling at the moment.

So, best guess is we will be roughly where we were last August in terms of strength and depth. If Bentley goes its a whole new ball game with the downside of the best player we've got gone.

[Eddie]

Ediie,

Who were the best team in 94/5?

What is Cantona hadn't thrown himself into the crowd?

If Jack Walker hadn't sold out to British Steel?

We finished 7th and that's pretty good (most seasons that's a European place), and i'd take that for next season now.

You see guys, the reason that we don't play so well sometimes, that we can look crap, is that we spend less than anyone else on players.

And Eddie, based on the description by Philip of the injuries and loss of form of key players, don't you think that Hughes has been brilliantly?

Injuries? We can hardly use injuries as an excuse. City, West Ham, Newcastle and Spurs all had much more trouble with injuries than we did.

As for loss of form, that can't be an excuse either. That's basically saying "we played crap because we played crap". Hughes' job is to keep players from losing form. When several players have below par seasons then his job is to either find replacements or find a way to get them out of their bad form, he did neither.

I don't get why some of you keep debating with me how good the 94/95 team were or how good they are compared to teams today. My simple point was, generally people thought we had a very good squad coming into it this season and now people are being critical of me because I'm not amazed by a 7th placed finish. We've finished 6th twice since we were promoted and when we then have the "best squad" in over 10 years and we finish 7th it isn't exactly a wonderful achievement for the club. As I said, I'm not unhappy with the league place, but when you throw in the quality of football we had to watch and our cup "runs" it hasn't been a very good season. We took a step back in the UEFA Cup, a step back in domestic cups and a slight step forward in the league, but still fell below what we did two seasons ago with mostly the same squad.

You can tell me that we were one game away from 6th and that is great, but we don't get anything from being one game away. Even if we had sneaked 6th place on the final day I still wouldn't have been delighted with this season because of the standard of play, but at least the ends would have justified the means. As it stands, I think we had a fairly crap season.

If anything, the fact that we played so poorly and still finished 7th shows what this squad can do and that makes it even worse. We were fortunate to take part in a season where Spurs and Newcastle didn't compete, West Ham were ravaged by injuries, City and Portsmouth stopped playing when they had a points lead on us and Villa and Everton were good, but neither were fantastic. We didn't take advantage of that. What are the chances that all of those sides fail in that way next season? My bet would be that at least one of them locks up 5th spot, possibly 6th spot as well. Let's hope that the cups are kinder to us next season.

I feel like I've said as much as I can on this subject, so if you still disagree with me at this point then I don't think much can be done. I respect the fact that others have differing opinions. I also respect that some of you older supporters judge our current success in a different context, although personally I feel past achievements, or rather lack thereof, shouldn't be used when judging todays performances, but if you don't feel that way then that is fine.

Abbey, my post that said I would "punch anyone in the face" who said that we were doing well for a small club wasn't serious. It was simply my way of putting that I was tired with it constantly being handed to a bunch of millionaires as a crutch. I'm far too silver-spooned and ivory-towered to ever get my hands dirty like that.

[philipl]

Every season there are teams that don't compete, under-perform and have injury crises.

Not every club can finish 7th. Others didn't we did.

[Eddie]

Not every club can finish 6th, another club did, we didn't.

[LDRover]

Is there not a thread where people tried to predict where we'd finish last season?

It'd be interesting to see if those who are 'delighted' at our 7th place actually predicted a lower league position. From what I can remember there were quite a few who expected top 6.

[T4E]

We've finished 6th twice since we were promoted and when we then have the "best squad" in over 10 years and we finish 7th it isn't exactly a wonderful achievement for the club. As I said, I'm not unhappy with the league place, but when you throw in the quality of football we had to watch and our cup "runs" it hasn't been a very good season.

I'm yet to see anyone give a decent argument that contradicts this.

Perspective is all well and good, and I think even us young 'uns understand where we've come from and the lofty position we currently hold. However the facts surrounding this season are plain and simple - we had a squad this season with the ability to do better than we have, not just in the league, but in the other competitions that we actually stand a chance of winning.

In the league I would expect us to finish anywhere between 6th and 10th, so in that sense 7th was a slight over-achievement. However, in the cups I'd expect as a bare minimum QF of the league cup, 5th round of the FA Cup and Last 32 of the UEFA. If you look at every competition we've been involved in this season, we have surrendered an opportunity to acheive more than we did in every single one of them. Larissa should have been an easy route in to the UEFA Group Stage. We had Arsenal's kids on the ropes and should have secured a place in the Carling Cup semi final. Losing to Coventry at home in the 3rd round of the Cup is a result that will grate on me for many years to come. To top all that off with captulation away to Brum on Sunday when, despite all of the above, we still had a fantastic chance to achieve something big this season, it makes for a season that has to be termed as disappointing.

[thenodrog]

McCarthy may or may not recover his first season form. One or more of three factors seem to have played here- his head not straight, rubbish distribution from midfield, the Premier League worked him out. I think there is a 50/50 chance the first season Benni will come back.

imo the biggest single factor in his poor season was that RSC was playing where he normally did the year before. For his form to come back either RSC needs to get injured / sold or Benny must re-invent himself and I'm not confident that he can. On the plus side if we do lose RSC to injury then Benny up top is not a bad replacement.

Savage is not coming back but Vogel looks to be a quiet efficient operator who I'd say is a 75/25 chance to be a very decent EPL defensive midfielder who will keep ball posession. Jury is still out there i'm afraid. I think Hughes might see him as a stop gap signing..... I think I do!

Dunn and Reid I am pessimistic about now and I guess so is Hughes hence the focus on a midfielder as the main acquisition target. 25/75 that either of them will get back to their best. Reid since he's been here has had just one good spell, between scoring that goal at Wigan and getting injured. He's a confidence player and needs to get it back pdq or he's destined for the lower divisions! Dunn's getting older and because of that he needs to get himself fitter than he has ever done in his life before.

Nelsen I think is getting back to his best which is one of the EPL's top defenders. Very optimistic on this one 80/20

Not on Sunday he wasn't. Him and Samba were at their very worst imo.

[tony gale's mic]

I'm yet to see anyone give a decent argument that contradicts this.

Perspective is all well and good, and I think even us young 'uns understand where we've come from and the lofty position we currently hold. However the facts surrounding this season are plain and simple - we had a squad this season with the ability to do better than we have, not just in the league, but in the other competitions that we actually stand a chance of winning.

In the league I would expect us to finish anywhere between 6th and 10th, so in that sense 7th was a slight over-achievement. However, in the cups I'd expect as a bare minimum QF of the league cup, 5th round of the FA Cup and Last 32 of the UEFA. If you look at every competition we've been involved in this season, we have surrendered an opportunity to acheive more than we did in every single one of them. Larissa should have been an easy route in to the UEFA Group Stage. We had Arsenal's kids on the ropes and should have secured a place in the Carling Cup semi final. Losing to Coventry at home in the 3rd round of the Cup is a result that will grate on me for many years to come. To top all that off with captulation away to Brum on Sunday when, despite all of the above, we still had a fantastic chance to achieve something big this season, it makes for a season that has to be termed as disappointing.

I've got plenty of decent arguments that contradicts Eddie's statement.

This season is the first season when pretty much all the clubs competing with us have had rich owners and spent much more on transfers than us. Even last season we were competing with the likes of Reading, this season the clubs around us have been splashing money we couldn't afford on various players. So you can say we finished 6th in previous seasons but the teams we were competing with were nowhere near as strong.

I think some of you are really overrating the players we have. Yes I can see why people thought we had the best squad since '95 at the start of the season but various things were proved wrong.

At the start of the season:

We hoped MGP would return to his form of old - no such luck there.

We thought Benni would at least score a reasonable amount for us this season - 3 goals from open play suggests otherwise. That's down to his attitude problem and not down to the staff or the club.

Nelsen we thought was one of the league's best - that he was until he got injured.

We thought we were sorted in central midfield when in fact the opposite ended up being true, Sav and Tugay declined quicker than we anticipated.

Sure we started the season well and fell away towards the end but how is that any different from starting the season poorly and ending well? Some of you seem to be getting Thaksin syndrome I see.

Look at our side. In those seasons we finished 6th we had pace in our side (Duff, Bellamy), we had a playmaker in Tugay, this season we have neither since Tugay is on his last legs these days. To play attractive football you need one or two of those types players really, but the makeup of our side at present shows we don't have the players to do that. Bentley and Santa Cruz are our best outfield players but they're more technically excellent at what they do than being really exciting to watch.

Our central midfield is an absolute mess, I've been impressed with Vogel but he badly needs to play alongside someone who can make things happen.

Similarly at the back we have someone with a lot of potential but quite inexperienced and still prone to mistakes (Samba) and someone who has lost half a yard of pace since his injury (Nelsen).

We don't have a proper right back.

Our second striker options have fell flat for various reasons that I'm sure I don't need to explain.

So looking at what we've had to work with, we've done really well to finish where we are. T4E you say you "expect" us to finish 6th-10th but that's only because Hughes has raised the bar, look at whats happened to Bolton since Fat Sam left.

And this is where it all comes back to the money, Eddie might say it's not relevant but that's being extremely short sighted. If we had the resources we could have bought up players over summer or in January to make up for these shortcomings, but we simply didn't have the resources. Maybe this summer Hughes will have more cash but considering Everton spent £11.25 million on Yakubu chances are our rivals will still be able to spend more on one player than we will across the board.

[Paul]

I'm yet to see anyone give a decent argument that contradicts this.

Perspective is all well and good, and I think even us young 'uns understand where we've come from and the lofty position we currently hold. However the facts surrounding this season are plain and simple - we had a squad this season with the ability to do better than we have, not just in the league, but in the other competitions that we actually stand a chance of winning.

In the league I would expect us to finish anywhere between 6th and 10th, so in that sense 7th was a slight over-achievement. However, in the cups I'd expect as a bare minimum QF of the league cup, 5th round of the FA Cup and Last 32 of the UEFA. If you look at every competition we've been involved in this season, we have surrendered an opportunity to acheive more than we did in every single one of them. Larissa should have been an easy route in to the UEFA Group Stage. We had Arsenal's kids on the ropes and should have secured a place in the Carling Cup semi final. Losing to Coventry at home in the 3rd round of the Cup is a result that will grate on me for many years to come. To top all that off with captulation away to Brum on Sunday when, despite all of the above, we still had a fantastic chance to achieve something big this season, it makes for a season that has to be termed as disappointing.

Which is what Eddie is also looking to say. He may be saying it a manner which upsets some folk, and I'm not sure I can agree with some of his comments about the manager, but in stating this is a season when we missed some great opportunities, he's quite correct.

I don't think we have had a "crap" season as Eddie has said but I do think we have underachieved as T4E is saying. Whether it's underachieving or crap is debatable. An end of term school report would say something on the lines of "Could do much better and must learn to pay attention and concentrate in class in order to achieve full potential"

[Eddie]

Those are all fair points, but they ignore two factors:

1) Despite our rivals vastly outspending us, only two of them managed to put together sustained challenges and both of those clubs ended up finishing above us. As I mentioned before, things went our way in that sense: West Ham, Newcastle and Spurs suffered from injuries and/or managerial problems, City struggled with their owner as well as injuries and blooding so many new players and Portsmouth lost interest in the league once they had their cup final to look forward to.

2) The poor form of players isn't an excuse for poor performances. I expect the players and the management to get the best out of themselves, if they fail to do so then it is just that - a failure.

[waggy]

on sunday i think the ref did every thing in his power to make sure brum won,i thought we had two good penalty shouts,one stone wall.all week i said there was a massive difference in a team playing for premiership survival and one who had one foot on the beach,not qualifying for the intertototototototototo did not upset me one bit.for the fans who went to brum i'm sure a few off you are glad we lost,can get pretty hostile at st andrews

[T4E]

So looking at what we've had to work with, we've done really well to finish where we are. T4E you say you "expect" us to finish 6th-10th but that's only because Hughes has raised the bar, look at whats happened to Bolton since Fat Sam left.

You've made some decent points there but I had to take issue with the above. Yes, I expect 6th - 10th because Hughes is raised the bar. Moreover, I expect it because we have a squad capable of it as a bare minimum. The state of the team when Hughes tookover is irrelevant. If we're discussing the season in the context of his overall reign, then yes on paper it looks good. However, if we're looking at the season on the basis of what we were capable of achieving at its start, then you have to draw the conclusion that we've underachieved.