[Archived] Johann Vogel

[den]

According to Radio Lancs, he could be in Saturday's squad, if international clearance comes through in time.

[Fife Rover]

Some are underwhelmed; some are overwhelmed. Me? I'll just give the guy the respect he deserves as a new recruit to Rovers and wait till I have seen him kick a ball in a real match before passing any judgement. I hope and trust that MH and his staff have done all that's necessary before offering him a 2.5 yr contract, and there's no doubt that this player has a past record to be proud of. The only remaining questions are:

1. Has he still got what it takes?

2. Can he fit in to the Rovers set-up?

Let's wait and see!

[krislu]

Decent signing I believe! Now we atleast have a replacement for Tugay.

[LeftWinger]

Flitcroft? Savage?

Savage certainly wasn't a holding midfielder - have you ever seen him play?

[RevidgeBlue]

We haven't had a holding midfield specialist since when?

Wee Barry.

[RevidgeBlue]

I would love to sign him, the year PSV made the semi's I thought he was their best player. Made the mistake of going to Milan and sitting on the bench but I rate him very highly and would be a big improvement to our midfield.

Good distribution and can hold the ball, considering the only reason he wasn't running on for Milan is because of Pirlo and Gattuso I'd say he would be an excellent acquisition.

Been at Betis for some time after that though, why wasn't he a success there?

[Paul Mellelieu]

Wee Barry.

Of course.

I bow to your greater expertise.

[philipl]

You mean like Vratislav Gresko? Teehee! Well the Premiership is a different test for any player who hasn't played there before so we'll see what happens but it's a good signing IMO, just the type of player we could do with. If he's impressed Hughes in training then I'm happy with that for now - plus it's not exactly a gamble if he's on a free (in response to a previous post).

You are forgetting that Gresko was outstanding for us until he broke his leg. Was a completely different and far worse player afterwards.

When a player gets into dispute with Spanish management/owners, it is surprising how often the player grievance was 100% genuine and justified. I'd certainly give Vogel the benefit of the doubt over batty Bettis.

He has been at Ewood two and a half weeks (I think) so the club have haf plenty of time to work out whether he is burnt out or a classy player. Giving him a two and a half year contract points to Rovers being convinced he can do the biz.

[tcj_jones]

Souness saw the need for a replacement for Tugay five years ago now. I would love to have a player of Ferguson's style and calibre (pre-injury) at the club. Creative box-to-box midfielders are something of a rarity these days. We haven't come close since to finding another replacement.

Before anybody says anything, Ferguson treated the club disgracefully and I am glad he's gone.

[USABlue]

Let's see the fella play before we dis him shall we. It really irks me when people start this "he can't be any good because...." Give the fella a bloody chance at least.

[joey_big_nose]

We haven't had a holding midfield specialist since when?

Um, Tugay is pretty much the definition of a holding player isn't he? He rarely strays beyond the half way line. And he is one of the best - in a distribution sense - who has ever played in the role.

Just a shame he is having a major downturn now.

Plus Mokoena is a dedicated holding player too.... can't pass for toffee though!

[Paul Mellelieu]

Not really, Tugay is more like a playmaker. A holding player would probably fit the definition of Mokoena really!

I think that's right. The dilemma that's been at the heart of the team for years has been Tugay's role. The best passer at the club, by a mile, in my lifetime, but sitting in front of the back four, without really giving any protection defensively. For Turkey Tugay played in front of a back three or five, depending the way you look at it, which meant his defensive shortcomings were made up for by others.

As someone else posted Souness tried to solve this problem by bringing in the Wee boy, but Barry was never really a modern type of holding player, commonplace in the top sides. And here the Axe has shown what's needed. In countless games he's come on for the last 10-15 minutes to protect the defence, and a lead. And he does it very well. With the ball, it ain't as good, as we know.

The England central midfield problem is similar. It's only when Hargreaves comes into the centre that the team looks balanced and more secure.

Let's hope Vogel is the real deal.

[Hughesy]

If he hasnt got clearance yet then surely he wouldnt be allowed to play for the ressies anyway??

[bazza]

Get practising "The Birdie Song" to cheer John Bird on.

[Fife Rover]

Souness saw the need for a replacement for Tugay five years ago now. I would love to have a player of Ferguson's style and calibre (pre-injury) at the club. Creative box-to-box midfielders are something of a rarity these days. We haven't come close since to finding another replacement.

Before anybody says anything, Ferguson treated the club disgracefully and I am glad he's gone.

Well things ARE looking up! That's at least one amongst you that was able to see that Ferguson was, and is, a good player. I am not for one minute defending his babyish antics to manouevre himself a move back to Rangers, but I still think that at the time he arrived at Ewood he was a good signing for us and Souness did well to get him. Also it is certainly not Souness's fault that "wee Barry" wanted to go home so soon and was apparently so ungrateful for Rovers looking after him throughout his long and expensive recuperation after his accident at Newcastle. If I remember rightly it was very soon after Souness left for Newcastle that "wee Barry" decided it was time to go home.

[joey_big_nose]

Not really, Tugay is more like a playmaker. A holding player would probably fit the definition of Mokoena really!

I guess it semantics really but I would say holding player only implies that you hold the midfield together by retaining a deep position. It doesn't mean you have to tackle well. You just sit there and pick the ball up from defence and distribute it.

Of course the best holding players can pass and tackle- Makelele for instance - but it is not a neccesity to be a holding player.

For what it's worth before everybody gets too excited I don't think Vogel is too fierce in the tackle either. But he is a great passer and can make a challenge.

[S15]

In all seriousness how good was Vogel in his peak... He's a player whos' name has always rung a bell but I've never seen him play... Can anyway give a fair comparision with a similar player at whatever level he was at?

(That DOES make sense!!)

[LeftWinger]

(That DOES make sense!!)

Keep telling yourself that!

[RibbleValleyRover]

Not sure who to compare him to, but from what i've heard at his peak he was very good. He was part of a decent PSV side who were pretty decent, they had the likes of Van Bommel and Cocu in the side.

To quote numerous article i have read so far:

"Another Dutch league title followed in 2003 and Vogel became one of three key players — Dutchmen Mark van Bommel and Phillip Cocu were the others — that were the backbone of a dangerous Eindhoven team that reached the semifinals of the 2005 Champions League and came within a hair's breath of upsetting AC Milan."

I get the impression he is a defensive mid who can tackle, pass and distribute the ball very well. Passing seems to be his main strength, getting the ball from defense and distributing it forwards.

[Fife Rover]

Not sure who to compare him to, but from what i've heard at his peak he was very good. He was part of a decent PSV side who were pretty decent, they had the likes of Van Bommel and Cocu in the side.

To quote numerous article i have read so far:

"Another Dutch league title followed in 2003 and Vogel became one of three key players — Dutchmen Mark van Bommel and Phillip Cocu were the others — that were the backbone of a dangerous Eindhoven team that reached the semifinals of the 2005 Champions League and came within a hair's breath of upsetting AC Milan."

I get the impression he is a defensive mid who can tackle, pass and distribute the ball very well. Passing seems to be his main strength, getting the ball from defense and distributing it forwards.

Which is exactly what we are needing at present. Let's hope he comes up to expectations; but it may take a few matches and possibly not enough matches left this season.

[den]

Well, at least Hughes is excited by the signing.

[rover6]

From what little I've heard and read, the best comparison I can think of for Vogel is Paul Okon. I know, I know! Not the most flattering of comparisons. But what I mean is someone who might pejoratively be called a 'water-carrier' but who makes up for what he lacks in flashiness with reams of efficiency/effectiveness and sound technical ability. A real team player.

okay Aussie fans, you can put me in my place now...

[American Rover12]

Giving him a two and a half year contract points to Rovers being convinced he can do the biz.

While I agree that the Rovers probably have made a shrewd business move here, I'm just going to play devils advocate. Rovers had to have thought he still had prem quality football left in him, but the length of the contract could have been pushed by Vogel and his agent to make sure he was getting a check for at least another two seasons and to avoid another Betis situation. Maybe we tried to offer him something less committed.

[philipl]

The downside on a longish contract would be a Francis Jeffers situation where we eventually got the best part of £1m for a free pick up who did not work out.

[American Rover12]

Quite right. It's the only thing I'm a little apprehensive about; Rovers losing wages for two seasons on a guy who turned out not able to cut it.