[Archived] Hang Em High

[Flopsy]

so you'ld need 2 ropes then.

I'd recommend an open backed chair and lead filled rubber hoses applied repeatedly to the kidneys.

[thenodrog]

The front page picture in the LT is breaking my heart. As I've said I've a daughter the same age and courting just the same.

Sophie Lancaster has died savagely and unecessarily, she has been denied the chance love, to marry, to have children and grandchildren, to see and share their growing up. Her parents, her boyfriend, her friends and relatives will be heartbroken and their lives deeply affected even ruined to differing degrees -not neccessary-

[blue phil]

I have heard the reports on the radio that the so called f'cukwit parents of these murdering f'cukwits had a good laugh and a joke during the police interviewing.....WHAT THE HELL?

God help us all with cretins like these breathing the same air.

It would be an act of barbarism to hang 15 year old kids whatever their crimes .

The question we should be asking is how the hell have we arrived at such a situation where each generation in areas of our nation is becoming more amoral and brutal than the previous - and how we can reverse it ?

The answer , in the main , is that we have pursued extremist liberal policies for the last 40 years or so that have all but destroyed discipline and real educational standards in the schools of our inner cities - and now even in small towns . Communities need to be rebuilt , not added to by never ending influxes of un British immigrants who neither know nor care about our country - and that means introducing shared values and shared responsibilities . People who don't feel a part of society don't give a toss what happens in that society . Why should they ?

The situation will only be resolved when the education system is overhauled ; when discipline is reintroduced into society with policies such as national service ; and when the justice system punishes and deters rather than appeases and excuses .

In short we need to start putting the interests of British people before that of the Gods of money and possessions .

Only when we face the truth that we have stupidly moved away from traditional values , while the continentals have at least struggled to preserve them , can we prevent the next generation of savages being even worse than this lot ......and believe me they will be .

[thenodrog]

The country is awful and has been for years. I lived in a village centre between 88 and 94 and right next to the village toilets situated in a gardened seated area which after moving in I discovered was a meeting place for the local teenagers. A wife and two young kids and every night shouting, swearing and screaming from outside. I'm no angel but I really could not believe it. I spoke to the kids explaining the situation with no change to their behaviour, I singled out the two biggest and reasoned with them.... no change..... I gripped the biggest and threatened him that I would hold him responsible, at 1.45 am one morning I punched the lights out of the local 18 year old hardnut, I spoke to their parents, I had the police out every night (complete and utter waste of time) I went to see the chief constable (the same), the parish council held a village meeting to address the problem. In the end I requested some money from the RVBC to put iron railings around the area which could be locked every night, they refused, I then said give me written permission and I will install the railings and pay for em myself, they then didn't know how to handle this approach and stumped up the money. A hell of a fight to get it but the result was an immediate improvement.

The big problem is that people who stand up for themselves people become hate figures to the yobs. My children could easily have been bullied as a result, my car and property could have suffered. The best advice that I can give and would have been my ultimate course of action was to take one of my mates on when he offered to drive over one night with a couple more blokes, slap a few around and threaten them as to their future behaviour should they 'hear' anything more .... whilst I was away on holiday. Must say I'd do it for someone else but it really shouldn't be down to vigilante law.

[Rovermatt]

It would be an act of barbarism to hang 15 year old kids whatever their crimes .

The question we should be asking is how the hell have we arrived at such a situation where each generation in areas of our nation is becoming more amoral and brutal than the previous - and how we can reverse it ?

The answer , in the main , is that we have pursued extremist liberal policies for the last 40 years or so that have all but destroyed discipline and real educational standards in the schools of our inner cities - and now even in small towns . Communities need to be rebuilt , not added to by never ending influxes of un British immigrants who neither know nor care about our country - and that means introducing shared values and shared responsibilities . People who don't feel a part of society don't give a toss what happens in that society . Why should they ?

The situation will only be resolved when the education system is overhauled ; when discipline is reintroduced into society with policies such as national service ; and when the justice system punishes and deters rather than appeases and excuses .

In short we need to start putting the interests of British people before that of the Gods of money and possessions .

Only when we face the truth that we have stupidly moved away from traditional values , while the continentals have at least struggled to preserve them , can we prevent the next generation of savages being even worse than this lot ......and believe me they will be .

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be divesting the scum cited here (and their ilk) of any real responsibility for their abhorrent actions. To blame the ever faithful scourges of 'extremist liberal policies', 'un British immigrants' and the lack of national service for the malaise is a flawed point of view. Did pond-life not exist before these so-called policies were allegedly introduced? Did crime and anti-social behaviour not breed in the same way it does now: through poverty, ignorance, lack of education etc? The abject cruelty and evil that exists in society has always been present. To hold up the days when you got shipped off to sweep floors in an army base at the other end of the country as a paragon of good, honest harmony is slightly naive is it not?

Nobody is suggesting the actions in this instance are anything other than disgusting but I think it's very easy to blame the usual targets without looking objectively at the factors that have contributed to the existence of a violent, gleefully anarchic under-class for centuries.

[blue phil]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be divesting the scum cited here (and their ilk) of any real responsibility for their abhorrent actions.

Nobody is suggesting the actions in this instance are anything other than disgusting but I think it's very easy to blame the usual targets without looking objectively at the factors that have contributed to the existence of a violent, gleefully anarchic under-class for centuries.

Your first sentence is unworthy of a reply .

Yes , there has always been an "under class" for centuries .

On occasion that underclass has broken out but mostly it has been kept in check through the various cultural standards and traditions - namely the strength of the church , the law , and the family .

Today we have an under class that is growing in strength and numbers on an unparalleled scale . Most social commentators of all political persuasions recognise that .

If you are unaware of that rise and the threat to a decent standard of living for the average Brit in all walks of life then you must live in avery nice area indeed . Given time it'll reach you soon enough .

[LeChuck]

Having a daughter the same age I'd happily pull the trap door lever myself on these scum. No mitigating circumstances whatsoever other than the usual pathetic 'pretend drunk' defence. I bloody hate evil bstards like these. It'll not happen for some time yet I don't think but eventually imo our future society will find absolutely no need of them, and will simply get rid in order that others take heed.

http://news.aol.co.uk/youths-convicted-of-...327111409990002

Funnily enough I was saying the exact same thing to my girlfriend the other day.

I can't think of one justifiable reason to keep them alive.

[Rovermatt]

Your first sentence is unworthy of a reply .

So you're correcting me then...

If you are unaware of that rise and the threat to a decent standard of living for the average Brit in all walks of life then you must live in avery nice area indeed . Given time it'll reach you soon enough .

I would consider the area I live in to be 'nice'. However I doubt am I alone in living in a 'nice' area. This doesn't mean I'm unaware of the 'rise and the threat to a decent standard of living for the average Brit'. The town I live in has its fair share of unsavoury elements. They've been there for years however.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

The situation will only be resolved when the education system is overhauled ; when discipline is reintroduced into society with policies such as national service ; and when the justice system punishes and deters rather than appeases and excuses .

In short we need to start putting the interests of British people before that of the Gods of money and possessions .

Only when we face the truth that we have stupidly moved away from traditional values , while the continentals have at least struggled to preserve them , can we prevent the next generation of savages being even worse than this lot ......and believe me they will be .

Totally agree but I fear its too late,this country is literally sinking in its home made shyte,the filthy product can be seen above......no value,no use to anyone.

[roversmum]

I am really very, very worried about this. That poor girl and her boyfriend, my heart goes out to her family, I can't imagine how dreadful it must be to have such a thing happen to one of your precious daughters, a life of promise ended in a moment of madness.

I have come across a few lads/girls and their families who have little respect for society and their own responsibilities in it and they mostly seem to have one thing in common. Some kind of what at school is loosely termed a 'Special Need', in that they either have a low IQ and/or some kind of mental problem, possibly autism or aspergers syndrome. These problems are exacerbated by cigarettes, alcohol and often drugs (I know many posters are quick to deny these effects but for those who are already unstable such substances often have a profound effect)I also know many youngsters occasionally 'binge drink' but most of them don't go around terrorising other people and/or killing them. Violence in the media - entertainment -computer games must be detrimental to such affected minds as it dumbs down the real effects of such actions. Most of these people - and not just the youngsters - spend their lives in making the lives of others a misery, particularly those whom they perceive as 'different'. such as the disabled and elderly.

The understanding of the boys who killed Sophie and their families is suspect in that they showed no remorse or understanding of the seriousness of what they had done to Sophie and her boyfriend and they were also said to have attacked them because 'they were different'. One of the boys, Herbert, was stated to have autism and to be semi-literate in one of the articles I read. Allegedly Sophie's mother also mentioned that the boys' eyes were 'cold' when she looked into them.

For example I believe autism is far more prevalent than the authorities would have us believe and there is a wide spectrum of how it affects people. Some education authorities will not allow those with unrecognised autism to be diagnosed because 'it labels them' and yet these 'labels' are a requirement for the help they need, which would of course cost money and so the need is not met. Those who could be dangerous and whose condition becomes out of control are a danger to society. Youngsters are not disciplined because the parents themselves have a similar condition.

I wish I knew the answers.

[colin]

I wish I knew the answers.

Me too.

I just take some consolation that it is a current universal fact that angry and irrational people are more likely to post messages on an internet site that calm & rational people.

So what does that make me then?

[thenodrog]

The front page picture in the LT is breaking my heart. As I've said I've a daughter the same age and courting just the same.

Sophie Lancaster has died savagely and unecessarily, she has been denied the chance love, to marry, to have children and grandchildren, to see and share their growing up. Her parents, her boyfriend, her friends and relatives will be heartbroken and their lives deeply affected even ruined to differing degrees -not neccessary-

You are quite correct Flopsy. It's not 'neccessary', it's 'necessary'.

btw Can't rem what I wrote but I must have thought it was necessary at the time or I would not have written it.

[thenodrog]

I am really very, very worried about this. That poor girl and her boyfriend, my heart goes out to her family, I can't imagine how dreadful it must be to have such a thing happen to one of your precious daughters, a life of promise ended in a moment of madness.

I have come across a few lads/girls and their families who have little respect for society and their own responsibilities in it and they mostly seem to have one thing in common. Some kind of what at school is loosely termed a 'Special Need', in that they either have a low IQ and/or some kind of mental problem, possibly autism or aspergers syndrome. These problems are exacerbated by cigarettes, alcohol and often drugs (I know many posters are quick to deny these effects but for those who are already unstable such substances often have a profound effect)I also know many youngsters occasionally 'binge drink' but most of them don't go around terrorising other people and/or killing them. Violence in the media - entertainment -computer games must be detrimental to such affected minds as it dumbs down the real effects of such actions. Most of these people - and not just the youngsters - spend their lives in making the lives of others a misery, particularly those whom they perceive as 'different'. such as the disabled and elderly.

The understanding of the boys who killed Sophie and their families is suspect in that they showed no remorse or understanding of the seriousness of what they had done to Sophie and her boyfriend and they were also said to have attacked them because 'they were different'. One of the boys, Herbert, was stated to have autism and to be semi-literate in one of the articles I read. Allegedly Sophie's mother also mentioned that the boys' eyes were 'cold' when she looked into them.

For example I believe autism is far more prevalent than the authorities would have us believe and there is a wide spectrum of how it affects people. Some education authorities will not allow those with unrecognised autism to be diagnosed because 'it labels them' and yet these 'labels' are a requirement for the help they need, which would of course cost money and so the need is not met. Those who could be dangerous and whose condition becomes out of control are a danger to society. Youngsters are not disciplined because the parents themselves have a similar condition.

I wish I knew the answers.

You are guilty of attempting to defend the indefensible in this instance rmum.

[colin]

You are guilty of attempting to defend the indefensible in this instance rmum.

No she's not, she's just trying to have a look at an alternative to your hang 'em & flog 'em regime.

Have you got a problem with that?

[AlanK]

Colin mate, sometimes you have just got to accept that not only are some people useless to society but they are also extremely damaging and dangerous. These monsters kicked a kid girl to death. Just get rid. What use are they? Why pay thousands to look after them? We could spend that money on pensioners fuel bills.

[ABBEY]

we could send em on safari and treat them like superstars ...or they could get something they deserve eh col???

col justice needs to be dished out surly or is better to nanby pamby these scum???

[thenodrog]

I wish I knew the answers.

Me too.

No she's not, she's just trying to have a look at an alternative to your hang 'em & flog 'em regime.

Why criticise me when by your own admission you two cannot come up with any solutions? I assume it's cos I have done!

If these two had been dangerous uncontrollable dogs they'd have been destroyed in double quick time and you would have had no objections. Well these two are worse than dogs because they knew that what they were doing was very wrong. Bloody hell Colin they'd done the same to some kid just weeks earlier. Any sympathy that you may have is obviously aimed in the wrong direction. I really do not understand how your mind works.

[broadsword]

Euthanasia based on someone's criminal record isn't much of an solution, either. It's about as much of an answer as looking at where the crime was committed and saying: "Bomb Burnley".

Wiping out someone's life because they're no use to society (as Alank keeps on banging on about) is the thin end of the wedge. What next, bumping off dole scroungers? Immigrants who send all their money back to Polska? People we don't like the look of?

It's simplistic wishful thinking to imagine that it would be a deterrent, and has a worrying element of an-eye-for-an-eye. These kids were barbaric and inhuman, it doesn't mean that society has to ape their behaviour. Instead, we'll punish them by taking their liberty away for the rest of their lives. OK, so it's not quite the same as getting a big crowd in to watch Madame Guillotine in to do her thing, but it's quite an effective pu7nishment, just ask Huntley who's made countless attempts to take his own life, can't imagine he's enjoying life imprisonment, then, eh?

And just for the record (yet again), being anti-capital punishment does not automatically qualify someone for the "let's give them a stern talking to and take them on safari" camp.

[Rovermatt]

And just for the record (yet again), being anti-capital punishment does not automatically qualify someone for the "let's give them a stern talking to and take them on safari" camp.

It doesn't?

[roversmum]

The point is, theno, I'd not sure they did actually realise the seriousness of what they were doing because of the things I mentioned. Which to my mind, makes it all the more worrying. I have two granddaughters with special needs. Now I'm not saying they are going to go out and kill someone, but when you live with young adults whose minds do not work the same way as (for the want of a better word) 'normal' people you realise that things are not always cut and dried. One of my granddaughters is very strong and will hit out at people sometimes for no other reason than they are (as she sees it) in her way and no end of reasoning or explanation will stop her doing it. We have to be very careful with implements such as knives and scissors. Luckily this behaviour is generally restricted to family as she is closely watched and kept indoors if she is in what we call 'one of her moods'. She is never allowed to be on her own or go out without an adult with her. The strain of 24/7 care for this young person is immense and if parents are suffering from a similar condition there is a good chance that these young people will do someone some harm as they do not have the necessary nous to do anything about it. Youngsters want to be out and about with their peers and if a 15 year old decides he/she is going out 'whatever' it isn't easy to stop them. You will appreciate is not easy for me to put this point of view but I feel it needs airing.

[thenodrog]

The point is, theno, I'd not sure they did actually realise the seriousness of what they were doing because of the things I mentioned. Which to my mind, makes it all the more worrying. I have two granddaughters with special needs. Now I'm not saying they are going to go out and kill someone, but when you live with young adults whose minds do not work the same way as (for the want of a better word) 'normal' people you realise that things are not always cut and dried. One of my granddaughters is very strong and will hit out at people sometimes for no other reason than they are (as she sees it) in her way and no end of reasoning or explanation will stop her doing it. We have to be very careful with implements such as knives and scissors. Luckily this behaviour is generally restricted to family as she is closely watched and kept indoors if she is in what we call 'one of her moods'. She is never allowed to be on her own or go out without an adult with her. The strain of 24/7 care for this young person is immense and if parents are suffering from a similar condition there is a good chance that these young people will do someone some harm as they do not have the necessary nous to do anything about it. Youngsters want to be out and about with their peers and if a 15 year old decides he/she is going out 'whatever' it isn't easy to stop them. You will appreciate is not easy for me to put this point of view but I feel it needs airing.

Indeed and I thank you rmum.

But

1. are you under some sort of enforcement to treat your granddaughter as you are doing or is it a voluntary measure?

2. What you are implying is that 'care in the community' may not be enough in the case of your granddaughter.

Whichever.... it seems that your family has taken / is taking measures to prevent damaging issues but what happens when the parents can't be arsed, or simply cannot control what is tantamount to a grown man, or simply grow old? Is it fair for the state to metaphorically wash its hands of any such cases and abdicate responsibility to untrained parents? The first responsibility of the state MUST be to protect society as a whole rather than the rights of individuals.

For what it's worth ..... (and I have not read any psychological reports about these lads of which due to their age and the brevity of thye crime there must have been many) I don't believe that there are enough if any mitigating circumstances. Where is the boundary between 'psycological problems' and pure evil?

But accepting your issue .....

How would you feel about incarcerating Herbert in a secure psychiatric prison for the rest of his days and hanging Harris?

[roversmum]

The 'Care in the Community' is a big issue, as it simply doesn't exist in our opinion.

We either wash our hands of our granddaughter or do the best we can for her. Now, in a safe, controlled, calm environment she is no trouble. We are currently hoping to arrange residential college followed by some sort of sheltered accommodation for her.

The other one with special needs is different in that she is able to go out on her own, to the local shops for example. However, she would not be able to travel on her own. She is able to go our with friends to a certain extent but were she to take alcohol there could be a problem. She has some of the typical signs of autism in that she laughs at those she perceives as 'different' and will go up to someone and openly criticize their looks, clothes etc. She caused immense problems at her High School but as far as she was concerned she had done nothing wrong - she literally didn't understand that the teacher was in charge of the class and tried to take over when situations arose. She is now at special school but it took 18 months of fighting officialdom to get her there and she has no understanding of why she is there. As far as she is concerned she is the same as everyone else.

You can imagine how hard it is as my daughter also has two other children and she has been in this situation since the eldest was born nearly 17 years ago. She has begged for extra help from the authorities and they basically are not interested. Many times she has been on the verge of a breakdown and actually had one two years ago but still no extra help - just a few hours respite would help as unless Mr R and I go as well they cannot go out as a family due to the behaviour of the two with special needs. Yet she ensures that they go to clubs and leisure activities that they can cope with and she also works two days a week to ensure they have all they need.

I absolutely agree with your second point, theno. It is exactly what I am trying to point out. Basically the state cannot be arsed - although that is probably a bit unfair because the goal posts change so often in that they are given funding one minute and it is taken away the next. The closure of special schools and the 'inclusive' education theories have exacerbated the issue in that many children are forced into educational situations that they simply cannot cope with. They drop out of school or are expelled, are usually illiterate, and do not have the intelligence to do anything useful with their lives.

In fact, when dealing with authorities, we have been treated with disrespect and disdain and can only assume that they come across so many parents who simply cannot cope with such children because they themselves do not have the ability to do so. I know two such louts, the mother of one is locked in drugs indeed the extended family are known as drug dealers; the mother of the other spends her time working to make ends meet and care for her other children one of which is going the same way as his elder brother. In the latter case I believe the children have not received enough attention and support from their mother. A local man (in his late 20s) is of low IQ and epileptic and he eggs on the other two to cause endless problems for residents of the close where they live.

I certainly agree that Herbert should be in secure psychiatric accommodation for life. Not knowing the full story of Harris I cannot say but I would probably feel he needs the same treatment as Herbert. And yes, there are those who are 'pure evil'. Many of them, sadly. It's a huge can of worms.

[Claytons Left Boot]

Just watched some of tonight's Crimewatch programme. My God, there's something seriously wrong with this country. I am now even more convinced that the death penalty should be brought back and this type of scum be hanged in public.

Ten years from now, our intention is to live elsewhere and tbh we are counting down the days.

[thenodrog]

Just watched some of tonight's Crimewatch programme. My God, there's something seriously wrong with this country. I am now even more convinced that the death penalty should be brought back and this type of scum be hanged in public.

Ten years from now, our intention is to live elsewhere and tbh we are counting down the days.

Posted from "Hardangervidda"!? Crikey you got there quickly!

[jim mk2]

Just watched some of tonight's Crimewatch programme. My God, there's something seriously wrong with this country. I am now even more convinced that the death penalty should be brought back and this type of scum be hanged in public.

Ten years from now, our intention is to live elsewhere and tbh we are counting down the days.

Don't be silly. What makes you think it is different or better elsewhere ?

Just returned from a week in the US and the local papers there have similar stories. Look on the internet at newspapers in Australia, Canada, France etc - the general level of public behaviour is getting worse.

I'm surprised the Mr Angrys of Accrington haven't provided the usual "What we need is another war" solution. Certainly killed off a few undesirables in 1914-18 and 1939-45 eh what ??