[Archived] Hang Em High

[thenodrog]

Whether it is the Police, surveillance or society somehow improving, most crime statistics in the UK are going down.

Interesting theory across the pond that legalising abortion Roe v. Wade 1973 resulted in a fall in crime rate. Basically in the 70's and 80's a large number of foetus's from the lower orders / trailer trash ended up in a bucket instead of being born and growing into more burdens on society.

Problem here is that our benefits system has prompted a reverse situation.

[jim mk2]

Yes, it's great that homicide levels are showing a dscreasing trend, but 648 in 2008/09? Why should there be any? I know there are design faults with human beings and serious design faults with English human beings, but 648 in one year?

Of course one murder (homicide is American by the way) is one too many but man has been killing man since the year dot. There are no more serious "design faults" with English human beings than any other nationality. If you love Switzerland and the Swiss so much, fine go and live there. But don't slag off your own country on the way out.

[thenodrog]

Of course one murder (homicide is American by the way) is one too many but man has been killing man since the year dot. There are no more serious "design faults" with English human beings than any other nationality. If you love Switzerland and the Swiss so much, fine go and live there. But don't slag off your own country on the way out.

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/rp99/rp99-111.pdf

Not as much as nowadays it seems Jim. Page 15 says that murders have doubled sinc ethe 1960's.

Granted this data is just for the 20th century.......

Homicides per million population in England and Wales

Year Homicides

1900 9.6

1910 8.1

1920 8.3

1930 7.5

1940 ..

1950 7.9

1955 6.3

1960 6.2

1965 6.8

1970 8.1

1975 10.3

1980 12.5

1985 12.5

1990 13.1

1995 14.5

1997 14.1

Of course one murder (homicide is American by the way) is one too many but man has been killing man since the year dot. There are no more serious "design faults" with English human beings than any other nationality. If you love Switzerland and the Swiss so much, fine go and live there. But don't slag off your own country on the way out.

Oh btw I did find this article as a more up to date indication.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1523426/Homicides-soar-by-a-quarter-under-Labour.html

[philipl]

From the 'drog's article:

Since 1997, the number of homicide victims, including solved and unsolved cases, has averaged 737 per year. In the period from 1990 to 1996, the average was 601.

It was back down to 648 last year.

I am sure if we ended drug prohibition, the number would drop dramatically.

[thenodrog]

I am sure if we ended drug prohibition, the number would drop dramatically.

Surely thats solving a problem to create a problem? ...... And quite possibly increasing the body bag count too.

[Paul]

Surely thats solving a problem to create a problem? ...... And quite possibly increasing the body bag count too.

I would have thought this would suit you as it fits nicely with aborting white trash? Let the druggies gun each other down till there are none left to bother the rest of us.

[Claytons Left Boot]

Of course one murder (homicide is American by the way) is one too many but man has been killing man since the year dot. There are no more serious "design faults" with English human beings than any other nationality. If you love Switzerland and the Swiss so much, fine go and live there. But don't slag off your own country on the way out.

I didn't slag off my country (on the way in, by the way) at all, in fact I love the place. I was commenting on the ever growing numbers of pond life and the link to the alarming numbers of murders here. This country is superb, a number of people living in it are not.

If you think a reference to the number of murders here is 'slagging off my own country' you seriously want to engage your brain before typing such garbage.

[thenodrog]

I would have thought this would suit you as it fits nicely with aborting white trash? Let the druggies gun each other down till there are none left to bother the rest of us.

And let em od to their hearts content too. Well done Paul you've been a slow learner but nice to see that you are finally coming around to some common sense.

[jim mk2]

I didn't slag off my country (on the way in, by the way) at all, in fact I love the place. I was commenting on the ever growing numbers of pond life and the link to the alarming numbers of murders here. This country is superb, a number of people living in it are not.

If you think a reference to the number of murders here is 'slagging off my own country' you seriously want to engage your brain before typing such garbage.

I agree this country is "superb", and the fact that you also now "love then place" makes a mockery of your first post that

"We used to come home once a month for a long weekend and each time we drove down Bolton Road, Darwen in the taxi, I would utter an expletive and say we're back and.............. wishing you were born Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Finnish, Dutch, German, Austrian, Swiss, Spanish or Portuguese instead of English. ????

Your statements are full of contradictions and make you look silly.

[Claytons Left Boot]

Your statements are full of contradictions and make you look silly.

Not at all and not at all.

You know exactly what I mean and are just labouring a point as usual. That's why you have been banned so may times over the years.

Let's see if you can resist the temptation to have your usual last word..........

[LeChuck]

To be fair, I still think your comments on murders are inaccurate. They are neither a] worse than other European countries, or b] worse than they used to be.

[Claytons Left Boot]

To be fair, I still think your comments on murders are inaccurate. They are neither a] worse than other European countries, or b] worse than they used to be.

FFS - It's like banging your head against a wall. What comments? I have merely said 600 odd murders/homicides is too many and how have we sunk to the level we're at. I haven't commented on whether murders here are better or worse than other European countries. Neither have I said they are worse than they used to be. If you're seeing that in my two or three posts, you are seeing something that isn't there.

[jim mk2]

To recap, these original statements

We had the chance to live and work in Switzerland on a permanent basis ..... We used to come home once a month and each time we drove down Bolton Road, I would utter an expletive and say we're back.

Darwen, or to use its other name, England's answer to Chernobyl.

I used to say how lucky I was to have been born English. Now I wish I had been born Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Finnish, Dutch, German, Austrian, Swiss, Spanish or Portuguese,

how have we descended to the level we're currently at?

are totally contradictory to the statements that followed.

I didn't slag off my country at all, in fact I love the place. This country is superb,

If you can't see that you're even more dense than you appear.

You were also incorrect about the crime statistics but don't let that get in the way of a good old moan.

[LeChuck]

FFS - It's like banging your head against a wall. What comments? I have merely said 600 odd murders/homicides is too many and how have we sunk to the level we're at. I haven't commented on whether murders here are better or worse than other European countries. Neither have I said they are worse than they used to be. If you're seeing that in my two or three posts, you are seeing something that isn't there.

I apologise if I've got the wrong end of the stick, I wasn't trying to annoy you.

I just assumed that, when you listed some European countries, you were implying they were 'better' (for the want of a better word). If not I'm a little confused as to why they were there in the same post.

Again, no intent to offend or anything.

[Claytons Left Boot]

[quote name='jim mk2' date='26 April 2010 - 20:16 PM' timestamp='1272309395' post='903927'

You were also incorrect about the crime statistics but don't let that get in the way of a good old moan.

Le Chuck - no problem pal.

Jim - This is f'ing hard work.I haven't at any time quoted any crime statistics. Theno put up a table showing murders per head of population over the years. Not me. Don't let that get in the way of an argument you won't win.

You know full well what I have said but, as is your style, you choose to try and provoke. I'll spell it out to you yet again. I love this country and always have done. I never thought I'd want to emigrate and, whilst I still don't want to, I would now consider it. This is not because of the country (mountains, rivers, estuaries, river valleys, marshes and so on), it is because of the increasing numbers of pond life or underclass, whatever you wan't to call them.

Sorry mods, as I am sure this has got a tad boring for others on here. I won't post again. I do know, however, that Jim will not be able to resist one last sniping comment.

[colin]

Heavans to Betsy!

Looks like people are regarding this country as some kind of third world hell-hole, when it is (I beleive the)fourth most developed country in the world.

Free health care; free education; pensions; no-one starving; no health epidemics; no travel restricions; good TV & Radio service; free libraries; a sort of democracy; you get your wheely bins emptied; women give birth with expectations that the baby will live; flick the light switch and it will come on; the luxury & waste of dishwashers & tumbledriers; moaning about petrol prices when we've got petrol; the luxury of stupid consumerism consumption that leads thousands to flock to The Trafford centre & Tescos to buy things they don't need and will throw out 3 months later; garden patio heaters; fruit & veg imported from third world countries; the right to roam the most beautiful countryside; The Fall; am uncorrupt public service;

So that's a bit of a mixed bag, but I hope you get my gist. A few chavs are nothing really. A few murders are nothing either compared with this Now that's a country in deep sh1t.

So chins up chaps & chapesses. We are doing OK. Not perfect, but no need to get the noose out yet.

[SouthAussieRover]

Well Jim, you make this such a friendly place to visit.

[adopted scouser]

Free health care; free education; pensions; no-one starving; no health epidemics; no travel restricions; good TV & Radio service; free libraries; a sort of democracy; you get your wheely bins emptied; women give birth with expectations that the baby will live; flick the light switch and it will come on; the luxury & waste of dishwashers & tumbledriers; moaning about petrol prices when we've got petrol; the luxury of stupid consumerism consumption that leads thousands to flock to The Trafford centre & Tescos to buy things they don't need and will throw out 3 months later; garden patio heaters; fruit & veg imported from third world countries; the right to roam the most beautiful countryside; The Fall; am uncorrupt public service;

What have the Romans ever done for us ?

[colin]

You know you want it

And just to finish you off

[Steve Moss]

The 648 in the UK compares with over 17,000 in the USA- I guess the death penalty is an effective deterrent.

If executed, the murderer won't kill again so its a 'deterrent' in that regard.

And while its distasteful, I prefer the death penalty over some term in prison for murder. When someone intentionally and malicously kills, and you give that murderer a sentence of years, you've valued the victim's life in finite terms. A killer getting 20 years is an insult to the victim and the victim's family.

[colin]

If executed, the murderer won't kill again so its a 'deterrent' in that regard.

And while its distasteful, I prefer the death penalty over some term in prison for murder. When someone intentionally and malicously kills, and you give that murderer a sentence of years, you've valued the victim's life in finite terms. A killer getting 20 years is an insult to the victim and the victim's family.

Someone who drops litter, if executed, won't drop litter again so its a 'deterrent' in that regard.

"you've valued the victim's life in finite terms." That's an interesting concept, would you care to elaborate a touch.

[Steve Moss]

Someone who drops litter, if executed, won't drop litter again so its a 'deterrent' in that regard.

"you've valued the victim's life in finite terms." That's an interesting concept, would you care to elaborate a touch.

As to the deterent effect of capital punishment, I'll refer you to a wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_debate

The heading "Deterrence" has a very brief synopsis. I believe, based on dim memory, that other articles have been published this decade finding a deterrence effect.

And I believe the studies show, in the USA at least, that a not insignificant percentage of released murderers kill again.

As to valuing a victim's life in finite terms, if A kills B, is captured, convicted and sentenced to 20 years (or is given "life" but is parolled in 20), society vis-a-vis the Courts have said that B's life is worth 20 years of A's life. If I were B, or B's family, I'd be more than a little torqued.

[colin]

As to valuing a victim's life in finite terms, if A kills B, is captured, convicted and sentenced to 20 years (or is given "life" but is parolled in 20), society vis-a-vis the Courts have said that B's life is worth 20 years of A's life. If I were B, or B's family, I'd be more than a little torqued.

OK, thanks for your reply. I'd just like to suggest that the victim's family should have nothing to do with with the punishment. Otherwise we get into some strange & medieval ritual of some kind of retribution. What happens if the victim has no family?

I think it's better if an independant court decides.

[Eddie]

As to the deterent effect of capital punishment, I'll refer you to a wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_debate

The heading "Deterrence" has a very brief synopsis. I believe, based on dim memory, that other articles have been published this decade finding a deterrence effect.

And I believe the studies show, in the USA at least, that a not insignificant percentage of released murderers kill again.

As to valuing a victim's life in finite terms, if A kills B, is captured, convicted and sentenced to 20 years (or is given "life" but is parolled in 20), society vis-a-vis the Courts have said that B's life is worth 20 years of A's life. If I were B, or B's family, I'd be more than a little torqued.

You're right in part and not in others. You are correct in stating that not an insignificant number of murderers do kill again, but most statistics show that there is little or no deterrent. The states with the death penalty tend to have the highest murder rate, although that could be related to socio-economic factors. The more telling fact is that during moratorium the murder rates fell in many counties and states. The fact of the matter is that murder and murderers are far more complicated and can't be put-off through a simple fear factor. It's clear that murder rates are far more tied to poverty, discrimination, drug use, etc. than they are to the fear of punishment.

[thenodrog]

It's clear that murder rates are far more tied to poverty, discrimination, drug use, etc. than they are to the fear of punishment.

Good point eddie. Unless you can think of something else murdering people is the ultimate form of discrimination.

However I think you need to dig further behind that comment. Whilst lots are classed as being in 'relative' poverty they don't all decide to go out and kill someone do they? Same with drug use. Some flaw in the psychological make up must exist too.