[Archived] Hang Em High

[bypass06]

In America if your IQ is less than 70 you are exempt from the death penalty.

Only in America can you be rewarded for being an idiot.

[jim mk2]

If I came across such a situation and an unarmed man were assaulting someone I would point the gun at him and order him to stop or risk getting shot. A warning shot might also defuse the situation. Firing a gun with the intention of killing and asking questions later is wrong in my view.

All hypothetical because I've never handled a gun, never felt the need to own a gun, would not know how to access a gun and would not live in any country where guns are part of its culture.

[Steve Moss]

You think Steve Moss is joking ? You clearly do not understand the mentality of the US right wing and the NRA in particular with regard to the use of guns.

You are correct. If I am in my home state, and I observe someone killing, raping, etc..., a member of my family, I would absolutely shoot that animal dead.

What I don't understand is the psychology that you owe an ounce of compassion, courtesy or respect towards the criminal. From my perspective that you would put the health of the murderer or rapist ahead of that of your loved one, even for a moment, is the real sickness.

And it has nothing to do with guns. If I lacked a firearm, I'd use a baseball bat, knife, or stone, all of which are capable of inflicting death or grievous bodily injury.

What I think I'm observing with this debate is the world turned upside down. Jim, I respect you in many ways but I view your definitions of "civilized" as being anything but. Passivity is not civilized. Passivity is the death of civilization.

If I came across such a situation and an unarmed man were assaulting someone I would point the gun at him and order him to stop or risk getting shot. A warning shot might also defuse the situation. Firing a gun with the intention of killing and asking questions later is wrong in my view.

All hypothetical because I've never handled a gun, never felt the need to own a gun, would not know how to access a gun and would not live in any country where guns are part of its culture.

1. A "warning" shot is reckless. Bullets travel. They sometimes travel outside the distance you can view. How would you feel if your "warning" shot killed a child? If you are going to point a firearm at someone (which in itself is an act of deadly force and will get you sent to prison if you do so in anything but the most life threatening of situations), make sure you pull the trigger and hit your intended target.

2. You must clarify "assault". Using a firearm to break up a fist fight will get you sent to prison for a very long time. Using a firearm to kill a person who is murdering/raping your wife at knife point will get you a few weeks/months of legal and psychological hell, but you'll be a free man and your wife will be alive at the end of the day.

3. As to the criteria required for you to consider residency, Arizona will just have to muddle along without you.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

The good ol' Wild West mentality is alive and kickin'.

It's in the genes. My dad fought in North Africa and then up throught Italy, he always said the 8th Army was more afraid of the USAAC than they ever were of the Luftwaffe.

[Steve Moss]

I think maybe Steve is getting carried away . . .

I'm sorry, Theno. I did not mean to ignore this post. I simply missed it.

Jim, etc., are correct. I was not joking.

I've been shooting since I was a child. I'm a former Marine. I've attended various defensive handgun classes. For those interested and traveling in Arizona, I'd recommend: www.gunsite.com.

Every drill I've ever participated in (probably numbering in the 100s) reinforces the sequence of two to the chest, one to the head, as being the effective sequence to ensure that you put your target down. From what I've seen, shooters (whether military, police and civilians) are conditioned in that sequence. Trick shoots, i.e. something other than center mass, should be left to the Lone Ranger and professionally trained snipers.

And it complies with rule number two of the USMC Rules of Gunfighting.

[colin]

I think maybe Steve is getting carried away but a head shot would be reasonable force in that situation. You dare not miss or do half a job when you are one on one. Depending on ones personality, and I might be wrong, but I think fear would either make you freeze completely or empty the gun into his brain. Either way rational thought would not be a part of your decision. Far different consequences if you screwed up though.

Ah bless you! You think you are either Charles Bronson or Clint Eastwood. You live in Pleasington. You sell chicken food. You watch films. Don't confuse your real life with films. Just a suggestion..

[Steve Moss]

Don't confuse your real life with films. Just a suggestion..

Good advice for us all.

[thenodrog]

Ah bless you! You think you are either Charles Bronson or Clint Eastwood. You live in Pleasington. You sell chicken food. You watch films. Don't confuse your real life with films. Just a suggestion..

Mostly wrong colin as usual.

However I thought my opinion that that fear would make a person's actions unpredictable was vald. Why do you disagree?

[colin]

However I thought my opinion that that fear would make a person's actions unpredictable was vald. Why do you disagree?

"Fear" is an automatic & hard-wired reaction to most animals. We are basically (genetically) still 10,000+ years old and we all get scared and fearful. Just go and scare a cat in your garden. We are all the same. Anything that scares us in 2012 is the exact equivalent of our stone-age ancestors facing a sabre-tooth tiger. We soil ourselves and run away. That's fear.

If anyone's reaction is to get a gun and confront the perceived threat then that is not fear. That person is in control of themselves and faces the threat armed and aware that they can kill or main whatever or whoever they perceive as a threat. That is definately not fear. That is a rational decision to confront whatever is perceived as a threat. From that point onward the excuse of unpredictabilityon the grounds of "fear" becomes invalid.

[Steve Moss]

If anyone's reaction is to get a gun and confront the perceived threat then that is not fear. That person is in control of themselves and faces the threat armed and aware that they can kill or main whatever or whoever they perceive as a threat. That is definately not fear. That is a rational decision to confront whatever is perceived as a threat. From that point onward the excuse of unpredictabilityon the grounds of "fear" becomes invalid.

The only thing I agree on in your assertion is that we are hard-wired for fight or flight.

However, the fight option is not the absence of fear. To assert otherwise demonstrates a profound detachment from reality.

[Stuart]

"Fear" is an automatic & hard-wired reaction to most animals. We are basically (genetically) still 10,000+ years old and we all get scared and fearful. Just go and scare a cat in your garden. We are all the same. Anything that scares us in 2012 is the exact equivalent of our stone-age ancestors facing a sabre-tooth tiger. We soil ourselves and run away. That's fear.

If anyone's reaction is to get a gun and confront the perceived threat then that is not fear. That person is in control of themselves and faces the threat armed and aware that they can kill or main whatever or whoever they perceive as a threat. That is definately not fear. That is a rational decision to confront whatever is perceived as a threat. From that point onward the excuse of unpredictabilityon the grounds of "fear" becomes invalid.

First off, you may soil yourself and run away, others may have clubbed or speared the sabre-tooth to death in a fit of adrenaline.

But you are mixing your arguments here. The post reads like you think reasonable people would go and buy a gun to hunt down a wrong-doer after the event. The argument proposed is how people would react when under immediate threat.

I would argue then that "fear" is the number one reason that most reasonable people would carry a gun in the first place. Fear that someone else may be carrying a gun and they aren't able to defend themselves or their family in that moment of need.

Using that gun in a situation where the adrenaline is pumping would be the modern day equivalent of clubbing the sabre-toothed tiger. Unfortunately, you cannot run away from or climb up a big tree to escape a n'er-do-well with a bullet and a gun. You comply or die, or comply and die anyway. (There are some real scumbags out there Colin - just start reading this thread again from page 1)

Not everyone is fortunate enough to be able to avoid certain districts or estates, some people live in constant fear.

Would I prefer everyone owned a gun, no, not really. It's bad enough wondering if people are carrying blades. But would I shed a tear if someone got their comeuppance through trying to attack the "wrong" victim? No.

Ironically I assume the reason sabre-tooth tigers are extinct is because the soilers who ran away hatched (premeditated) a clever plan to hunt (murder) them out of existence...

[thenodrog]

"Fear" is an automatic & hard-wired reaction to most animals. We are basically (genetically) still 10,000+ years old and we all get scared and fearful. Just go and scare a cat in your garden. We are all the same. Anything that scares us in 2012 is the exact equivalent of our stone-age ancestors facing a sabre-tooth tiger. We soil ourselves and run away. That's fear.

If anyone's reaction is to get a gun and confront the perceived threat then that is not fear. That person is in control of themselves and faces the threat armed and aware that they can kill or main whatever or whoever they perceive as a threat. That is definately not fear. That is a rational decision to confront whatever is perceived as a threat. From that point onward the excuse of unpredictabilityon the grounds of "fear" becomes invalid.

There is always fear in such a situation and as Stuart says an adrenaline rush shoves rationale to one side.

[Paul]

1. A "warning" shot is reckless.

TBH I think you're beginning to struggle now.

And it complies with rule number two of the USMC Rules of Gunfighting.

The Rules of Gunfighting??? Do these seriously exist? We aren't talking about duelling pistols at 20 yards or two cowboys in a Western.

If such rules exist it amazes me.

[Nobert]

The problem with using phrases like 'the rules of gun fighting' is that you are assuming the other person/people with the gun are also playing by the rules.

You as an individual may have a gun in order to genuinely protect your home, family etc. and use it in extreme cases, but there are people who would happily use the same type of gun to shoot a neighbour whose tree has grown a bit too much and overhangs their garden, or generally go mad and shoot lots of people.

I do agree with Steve Moss though that fighting may be a reaction to fear. At some level you may be thinking 'I'd better go for him/her before they hurt me' and go mental. Mike Tyson has said it was sheer nerves and fear of the opponent that made him go absolutely mental at the start of his fights and attack like a man possessed.

Sorry if this adds nothing to the debate, I only skimmed the last page.

[Silencio]

For those interested and traveling in Arizona, I'd recommend: www.gunsite.com.

Think I'll give it a miss, cowboy...

[Steve Moss]

TBH I think you're beginning to struggle now.

In Arizona to be legally authorized to pull the trigger (warning shot or not) you must already be in a deadly force situation. If so:

1. Pointing your firearm away from the villain and firing it means that you've given the bad guy the advantage. Your gun is pointed elsewhere, is his?

2. Firearms are LOUD. A shot is just as likely to disorient, blind and deafen you, if in a dark or confined area, such as your home, as it is the bad guy. Do you really want to bet that you'll recover first?

3. If you fire a weapon you are responsible for the consequences. People HAVE unintentionally killed others by firing warning shots. Never pull the trigger unless you know where your bullet will ultimately land. There is a reason that firing pistols off in the air during the 4th of July, etc. is illegal. Bullets travel further than your eye can see.

Warning shots and shooting to wound is a mindset of watching too many TV gunfights. It's stupid and will get you and others killed for no good reason. If you have grounds to fire a warning shot, you are in a life and death situation already. I hope you're smart and chose life.

The Rules of Gunfighting??? Do these seriously exist? We aren't talking about duelling pistols at 20 yards or two cowboys in a Western.

If such rules exist it amazes me.

It's a joke list. However, like a lot of good humor there is a strong element of truth in it.

Here's the list in full:

USMC Rules for Gun Fighting

• Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
  
• Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
  
• Only hits count. A close miss is still a miss.
  
• If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough nor using cover correctly.
  
• Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movements are preferred.)
  
• If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
  
• In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
  
• If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
  
• Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.
  
• Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.
  
• Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
  
• Always cheat = always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
  
• Have a plan.
  
• Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
  
• Use cover and concealment as much as possible.
  
• Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
  
• Don't drop your guard.
  
• Always tactically reload and threat scan 360 degrees.
  
• Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
  
• Decide to be AGGRESSIVE enough, QUICKLY enough.
  
• The faster you finish the fight, the less shot up you will get.
  
• Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
  
• Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
  
• Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a "4".
  

Navy Rules for Gun Fighting

• Go to Sea
  
• Send the Marines
  
• Drink Coffee
  

Army Rules for Gun Fighting

1. See USMC Rules to Gun Fighting.
   
2. Add 60 to 90 days.
   
3. Hope the Marines already destroyed all meaningful resistance.
   

Air Force Rules for Gun Fighting

1. Kiss the wife goodbye.
   
2. Drive to the base in your sports car.
   
3. Fly to target area, drop bombs, (try not to hit the Canuks) fly back to your home base.
   
4. BBQ some burgers and drink beer in your back yard, and talk ###### about the Navy, Army and Marines.
   

Edited for formatting purposes (I missed a few things in my speed).

[Steve Moss]

Think I'll give it a miss, cowboy...

I understand completely. Arizona has far more in the way of natural beauty that should be seen, as opposed to attending week long firearm classes where you'll fire thousands of rounds of ammo (and be heartedly sick of doing so by the last day). If I'm in Japan, I'm seeing the sights, not enrolling in samuria school.

So check out the Grand Canyon, Sedona, White Mountains, Meteor Crater, Montezuma's Castle, etc. You'll enjoy it.

But for those travelers interested in a high quality firearms training class, www.gunsite.com is the way to go. Its shorter, two day class, is also a very good overview which provides more pistol training than many police officers recieve.

[adopted scouser]

I know statistics will show it isn't a deterrent but with stats you can prove anything. Time to bring back the rope and medieval treatment for these perverts. I'm sure that the thought of a world of hell waiting for them would put some of them off. If it saved just some of the kids it would be worth it. Dad rant over

[jim mk2]

I u

But for those travelers interested in a high quality firearms training class, www.gunsite.com is the way to go. Its shorter, two day class, is also a very good overview which provides more pistol training than many police officers recieve.

GIve it a miss thanks. I live in a society that doesn't want or feel the need to arm itself.

[Steve Moss]

I know statistics will show it isn't a deterrent but with stats you can prove anything. Time to bring back the rope and medieval treatment for these perverts. I'm sure that the thought of a world of hell waiting for them would put some of them off. If it saved just some of the kids it would be worth it. Dad rant over

+1. If they act like rabid animals, put them down like one.

GIve it a miss thanks. I live in a society that doesn't want or feel the need to arm itself.

Up to you. I prefer living in a society where each individual gets to make that decision for themselves, instead of "m'lord" doing it for me.

[jim mk2]

+1. If they act like rabid animals, put them down like one.

Up to you. I prefer living in a society where each individual gets to make that decision for themselves, instead of "m'lord" doing it for me.

Decision for themselves ...just like Boston residents ordered to stay in their own homes while the police ran amok ?

I prefer to live in a society that doesn't live in fear of its own gun-toting police force, but that's up to you.

[LeChuck]

Up to you. I prefer living in a society where each individual gets to make that decision for themselves, instead of "m'lord" doing it for me.

Are you for legalising all drugs in that case? Abortion? Gay marriage?

[Guest Norbert]

+1. If they act like rabid animals, put them down like one.

Up to you. I prefer living in a society where each individual gets to make that decision for themselves, instead of "m'lord" doing it for me.

Funny. I could have sworn the Senators who seem to be bought off by the NRA effectively put a stop to any reforms on gun laws no matter how much support there may be for changes. Funny how the gun lobby bang on about their freedom to own guns, yet they don't aknowledge the insidious influence of lobbyists, the NRA and piles of cash that keeps the political system tame, and those who oppose unfettered gun ownership out of the loop.

I find it strange that the far right in the USA love their guns, make excuses for whenever a loon uses one to kill 20 people in a school, cinema etc. and yet are violently against abortion, calling it murder, and even going as far as bombing clinics in a few cases.

[broadsword]

As Bill Hicks said, if you're going to be pro-life then mount a demonstration outside a cemetary.

[ABBEY]

That evil @#/? wants hanging in France that slit his kids throats . How anyone can do that to their own kids is beyond belief.

No doubt the PC brigade on here will defend him .