[Archived] Hang Em High

[thenodrog]

Reviled ... but not surprised.

btw why is Richard Doorkins edited out?

[adopted scouser]

Reviled ... but not surprised.

btw why is Richard Doorkins edited out?

I wonder why

[dave birch]

All this will do is ensure there are more reprisal attacks, increase the resentment between the Asians (regardless of whether they are muslim or not) and the rest of the population.

At the end of the day, there is a problem, one that many on both "sides" acknowledge but have failed to address or even come to terms with.

It's sad to say, but there are problems, such as this, world wide; and it's pointing in one direction as to where the problem emanates from.

What would I do with these two?

1. Keep them alive.

2. Convict them.

3. Keep them in jail for the full sentence, no parole.

4. At the end of their sentence, let them find a country compatible with their beliefs.

5. If they can't find some country to take them, lock them away, give them no special treatment, for the rest of their natural life.

6. But above all do not allow them to have a soapbox to spout their hatred and bile.

[Jock]

Would it be safe to wear a Help For Heroes T-shirt in Blackburn?

[Steve Moss]

Gangbangers means something different in America Jim. I think it means violent gang members who go round dealing drugs, shooting each other etc., and not what we think.

Definetly. I'm not talking teenagers with their pants too low. I'm talking about the estimated 68,000 gangbangers who control entire sections of Chicago where the police are afraid to go and where the residents are too afraid to report crime for fear of winding up a "snitch in a ditch".

Just a point relevent to the above debate but if that lad or some of the passers by had been carrying guns he'd prob be alive now.

According to the news articles, one of the attackers had a pistol. And it took 20 minutes for the police to arrive on the scene, where they had to shoot the terrorists. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-in-the-uk/10073910/British-soldier-beheaded-on-busy-London-street-in-terror-attack.html

When seconds count, the police are minutes away.

And while the numbers may be subject to debate, some claim that the average number of deaths in a mass shooting when the shooter is stopped by the police is 14.29. The average when a civilian intervenes is 2.33. dailyanarchist.com/2012/07/31/auditing-shooting-rampage-statistics/

An obvious explanation for the alleged lower number of casualties is due to friends, neighbors and passerbys on scene or near it being able (and willing) to respond more rapidly than the police.

I doubt it to be honest, the assailants had the advantage of surprise. If we go down that road the extremists will have won in my opinion

It is a mistake to equate a "civilized" response as being an appropriate response in all circumstances. There comes a time where the desire to be "civilized" is by every objective standard a projection of weakness which will only encourage similar acts. Every now and then an incredibly savage and barbaric reaction is exactly what is needed to keep civilization safe.

Reading the article, these two monsters have nothing but contempt for the UK and the West. They are reveling in your percieved weakness. Their attitude is shared by many like minded extremists. The only thing they respect is strength. If they think you are strong, that your response will be merciless and brutal, they'll think twice.

And there would have been a massive US-style shootout. Do you think before you type this rubbish ?

Jim you watch far too much TV. Do yourself a favor and take a break from John Wayne.

In reality there are between 55,000 to 4.7 million defensive handgun uses in the USA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_gun_use), depending on whose numbers you believe. Most of which involve the attacker discoverying the intended victim is armed and, as a result, deciding to beat a hasty retreat. Most criminals are jackals, not lions, and they're looking for easy prey.

And another little known statistic is that police are 11 times more likely to kill an innocent person than an armed civilian, mostly because (at a guess) armed civilians don't go looking for trouble. https://www.google.com/search?q=civilian+vs.+police+accuracy&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

And anyway one slices it, the murder rate is a fraction of the firearm use rate. Considering the numbers of firearms in the USA (300 million) and the households who own guns (almost half), it is a very small number which are misused, almost all of it associated with the criminal element. (The Cato study only had 30 some mistaken homicides by civilians as compared to over 300 by police)

What would I do with these two?

1. Keep them alive.

2. Convict them.

3. Keep them in jail for the full sentence, no parole.

4. At the end of their sentence, let them find a country compatible with their beliefs.

5. If they can't find some country to take them, lock them away, give them no special treatment, for the rest of their natural life.

6. But above all do not allow them to have a soapbox to spout their hatred and bile.

Why are we considering letting them ever be free men again under any circumstances? The only sane conversation when faced with an act like this is death or natural life. Otherwise the terrorists are proven right, your government isn't and won't protect you.

[dave birch]

Steve, do I say "let them free"?

quite the opposite, if they want to go and live in a backward country after they have served their sentence, let them. They then may realise their stupidity.

If they can't find anywhere, then they stay in jail, full stop.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

The key thing to me about this is what is the reaction to it of most Muslims?

If the vast majority are appalled and are happy to say that to anyone who'll listen, then great. The press should be giving them plenty of airtime to say it and it would be the best way possible to calm the situation and ensure the sick individuals who did it don't get what they wanted.

But anything less than widespread and passionate condemnation from the Muslim community (and personally I'm very concerned there is something less) and anger/fear amongst non-Muslims is inevitable, and you could argue justified. Jock makes a very good point, what would be the expected consequences of walking round Blackburn for a few weeks with a "help for heroes" t-shirt on? If the scum who carried out this crime are isolated nutjobs then you'd expect there to be no consequences. Would that really be the case though?

I'm all for tolerance and diplomacy whenever possible, but unless things start to change I think we're heading towards a time when tolerance will equate to submission and the erosion of western values in this country. Sooner or later we're gonna have to start standing up for ourselves and what we believe in. And personally I think the average person is already trying to do that but they are being undermined by the ultra-PC factions calling them racist and cowardly politicians ignoring them.

[ABBEY]

Lovely post Gumboots. I'm with you on this. Too many people getting angry because a couple of people are actually insane & angry.

Good job we don't all treat the medical profession like Harold Shipman nor our LGV drivers like Peter Sutcliffe

And the all time pathetic post of BRFCS history goes to.......

[LeChuck]

But anything less than widespread and passionate condemnation from the Muslim community (and personally I'm very concerned there is something less)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22634468

The Muslim Council of Britain said the murder was "a truly barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly".

Do you publicly apologise for things white British people do? These disgusting human beings that carry out attacks like yesterday have nothing to do with 99.99% of the Muslims in Britain. They might read the same book but that is it.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22634468

The Muslim Council of Britain said the murder was "a truly barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly".

Do you publicly apologise for things white British people do? These disgusting human beings that carry out attacks like yesterday have nothing to do with 99.99% of the Muslims in Britain. They might read the same book but that is it.

Yes I've already read that. But 1 official statement by 1 organisation doesn't prove thats what the vast majority of Muslims in this country think. Its definitely a start, but to be totally effective its what should be coming from every Mosque and every other Muslim organisation for the next few weeks. What Muslims say about it to their colleagues at work, their friends outside of work etc is also massively important.

I'm not saying they have to apologise, I'm saying they have to condemn it. If I lived in a country where my religion and traditional way of life was a small minority, myself/my ancestors had been allowed to settle and enjoy the full benefits of that country, and extremist elements of my religion were determined to carry out violent attacks against the majority of that country, I would vehemently condemn them constantly. I'd be ashamed, furious, and determined to do anything I could to make people understand that minority did have nothing to do with us.

Do 99.99% of Muslims have that attitude to the psychos who did this? If they do then great, I'm just asking the question. You seem to somehow already definitely know the answer to that question and have immediately had a tetchy strop because I don't. Its funny how closed-minded some liberals can be.

[ABBEY]

And as for this warning for soldiers and armed forces by commanders not to wear uniform is wrong . They should be wearing it to make a stand and show a united forces against terrorism .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22634468

The Muslim Council of Britain said the murder was "a truly barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly".

Do you publicly apologise for things white British people do? These disgusting human beings that carry out attacks like yesterday have nothing to do with 99.99% of the Muslims in Britain. They might read the same book but that is it.

How many get turned in ? Which community in Blackburn celebrated and celebrates 9/11? Which community has held training camps in corporation park ? Which communities drive with black rags on their cars?

[LeChuck]

And as for this warning for soldiers and armed forces by commanders not to wear uniform is wrong . They should be wearing it to make a stand and show a united forces against terrorism .

How many get turned in ? Which community in Blackburn celebrated and celebrates 9/11? Which community has held training camps in corporation park ? Which communities drive with black rags on their cars?

Whilst I understand the sentiment of your first sentence, I don't think there's anything to make a stand against. I definitely don't think armed forces should be told wearing their uniform is wrong, but then I don't think they should be wearing it to make a stand. Make a stand against what? Nutters with knives? It's probably worth reading the comments from Col Mike Dewar saying it's not a terrorist incident but rather acts of people in "nutter territory": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22637534

As for the second part, I don't live in Blackburn so I don't know the details. The Muslim populations exceeds 25,000 though. It sounds like you want to tar a huge group of people with the same brush because of bad individuals. I see the same sort of people in Manchester as well. But they're individuals, or small groups of individuals at best.

[broadsword]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/concoughlin/100218238/the-woolwich-beheading-is-straight-out-of-al-qaedas-terror-manual/

I didn't realise it was a beheading?

I think it's too early to see if this is an isolated incident (a "nutter" job) or whether it's the start of something more ominous.

One of them said "we want to start a war in London tonight", well, they made a good start. I'm assuming that if those women hadn't surrounded the body then the head would've been taken fully off and been shown to the cameras.

1042:

Journalist Guido Olimpio writes in Italy's
Corriere Della Sera newspaper that "the attack on the British soldier,
even though many elements are still missing, is an absolutely perfect
textbook case of individual jihadism bent on achieving results as
macabre as they are 'spectacular'... Unfortunately, we are going to have
to get accustomed to episodes such as the murder in London. At this
juncture it is part of a trend"

He told BBC London: "He said he would blow himself up even if my
family was there. He said to me 'It's their government. They wanted them
in. They are responsible.'"

Abdullah said: "These people are so deluded that even Muslims aren't safe.

"The frightening thing is that there are more of them out there."

[jim mk2]

Yes I've already read that. But 1 official statement by 1 organisation doesn't prove thats what the vast majority of Muslims in this country think. Its definitely a start, but to be totally effective its what should be coming from every Mosque and every other Muslim organisation for the next few weeks. What Muslims say about it to their colleagues at work, their friends outside of work etc is also massively important.

Within hours of the incident Muslim organisations the length of the country issued statements condemning the attack. I know because I was reading them on the newswires last night. They can be easily found on the internet if you look.

[ABBEY]

and how many turned radicals names in to the police or MI5?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Within hours of the incident Muslim organisations the length of the country issued statements condemning the attack. I know because I was reading them on the newswires last night. They can be easily found on the internet if you look.

Ok then, what about this guy:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22634095

Yes there's condemnation in there, but its far from unreserved. He spends about a minute condemning the attack and then 2 minutes condemning our foreign policy. This is exactly what I was getting at at the top of the page. If we're going to have unreserved, total criticism of this attack from Muslims then fine. If we're going to have people like the idiot in the link using the attack as a platform to criticise British foreign policy, then its simply not on in my opinion.

Thats exactly what the attackers wanted, to influence foreign policy through barbarism, and that guy being interviewed is helping them do it. Regardless of whether our foreign policy is right or wrong, it shouldn't even be mentioned or discussed in relation to this attack. There shouldn't be an attitude of "the attack was terrible but...", that but justifies it in some small way and encourages further attacks, regardless of whether thats the intention.

[LeChuck]

Yes I've already read that. But 1 official statement by 1 organisation doesn't prove thats what the vast majority of Muslims in this country think.

You're asking for the impossible then. How are you ever going to get enough individual opinions to get a representitive sample?

I find it quite sad that you're not prepared to take it as a given that the vast majority of Muslims condemn the attack.

[jim mk2]

Agree with your criticism there but you said there was only 1 organisation and only 1 official statement when that is clearly not the case. Like most people Muslims are appalled at the attack.

[ABBEY]

Whilst I understand the sentiment of your first sentence, I don't think there's anything to make a stand against. I definitely don't think armed forces should be told wearing their uniform is wrong, but then I don't think they should be wearing it to make a stand. Make a stand against what? Nutters with knives? It's probably worth reading the comments from Col Mike Dewar saying it's not a terrorist incident but rather acts of people in "nutter territory": http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22637534

As for the second part, I don't live in Blackburn so I don't know the details. The Muslim populations exceeds 25,000 though. It sounds like you want to tar a huge group of people with the same brush because of bad individuals. I see the same sort of people in Manchester as well. But they're individuals, or small groups of individuals at best.

[LeChuck]

I can't see those videos at work.

There are a lot of things I really dislike about the Muslim community but I wouldn't ever say violence is one of them. I can only think you have very distant contact with normal people in those communities if you think they support acts like yesterday.

[ABBEY]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259352/Blackburn-Resistance-brothers-convicted-terrorist-offences.html

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9539120.Two_arrested_in_Blackburn_counter_terrorism_swoop_after__threat__to_Stansted_airport/

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10428505.Woman_fights_off_Blackburn_park_attacker/

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10183361.Gang_set_on_man_in_Blackburn_alley_assault/

[Mike E]

I've made a post on fb about the issue being with religious fundamentalism rather than Islam or even religion itself. But I must say things like this make me want the death penalty reintroduced. Never mind it not being a deterrent or whatever, it's what any killer deserves imo.

[LeChuck]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1259352/Blackburn-Resistance-brothers-convicted-terrorist-offences.html

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/9539120.Two_arrested_in_Blackburn_counter_terrorism_swoop_after__threat__to_Stansted_airport/

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10428505.Woman_fights_off_Blackburn_park_attacker/

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/10183361.Gang_set_on_man_in_Blackburn_alley_assault/

Those stories involve individuals. About 12 by my count? Out of a population of ~ 25,000 it means absolutely nothing.

If I find 4 stories involving violence and white males from the area what would that say about the wider population? Nothing. Same with those stories.

[Mike E]

Those stories involve individuals. About 12 by my count? Out of a population of ~ 25,000 it means absolutely nothing.

If I find 4 stories involving violence and white males from the area what would that say about the wider population? Nothing. Same with those stories.

Burnley fans use Abbey's logic to claim we shag horses!

[Audax]

There is a book that asserts Liberalism sees Christianity as an obstacle and defends Islam and it makes sense some just lump all fundamentalist religions in to one. So, really, I'm wary of what Liberals 'rationally' assert. One person was saying the perpetrator was converted to Islam though originally Christian. Islam and Liberals both dislike Christianity. If one goes that route, why not say dictators of the 20th century were like Stalin, Mao. We know what they did.

80% or more of the Terrorist attacks in the world are done by one religion and it is in their history. Sorry how that sounds, those seem to be shown so by facts.

The Nigerian Govt. just had to attack Boko Haram, Militants last week, they actually made airstrikes and cut phone services in that part of the country and it appears to be successful at least initially.

http://www.vanguardngr.com/2013/05/insurgents-fight-with-libyan-weapons-army/