[Archived] Hang Em High

[Jeru tha Damaja]

Play the Taliban's game?

Are you serious?

Evidence isn't a game, it's due process. Something that America urged on Britain and France in Nurembourg, but apparently forgot in their own time of grievance. Classified information? It only needed to be kept secret if it caused a national security issue, but even by the time they got round the having the Commission report this evidence was still conspicuous by its absence.

Also, evidence from the time might be better. By 2004 and 2006 bin Laden might as well make what political capital he could out of 9/11, he wasn't going to get anywhere by protesting his innocence at that point. But the fact that the FBI still admits to not having evidence to link him to it kind of stands out to me. Even if you like Bush, you're not telling me he could see into the future to know that there would be a confession (whether that confession was sincere or not), so what was the decision based on at the time?

But hey, I'm talking to someone who has previously endorsed the idea that the US is entitled to take military action to advance economic interests, what was I thinking.

Second, most Americans I know wouldn't say they feel more safe now compared with 15 years ago, but maybe that's down to incidents like Fort Hood and Boston.

[DE.]

What are you talking about Jeru? There was plenty of evidence. By the grace of almighty God himself somehow the passports of the attackers themselves made it through the burning metal of the plane and smoldering ashes of the Towers to conveniently land pretty much right where they could be found. If that isn't proof God loves the good ol' US of A I don't know what is.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

A man is butchered on the streets of our capital by Islamic militants and the only response from some is to take the mick out of the EDL. Islamic militants murder 3,000 civilians and your only comment on it is to take the mick out of the Americans response and side with a guy defending Bin Laden.

Why does the attitude of certain white people on this issue remind me of the snivelling suck-up standing behind the school bully laughing at his victims? Whether some of those victims were less than well behaved themselves still doesn't justify what the bully has been doing of late, and I'm talking all around the world this is happening.

If 2 members of the EDL had chased-down and butchered a Muslim walking out of a Mosque, then instructed people to film them ranting and raving and pointing at his corpse mere yards away, we wouldn't have people on here taking the mick out of the agitated response from Islamic extremist groups, would we?

But its easier to focus on something else isn't it. There's nothing threatening about a bunch of lager louts who make up about 0.1% of the electorate, so lets ignore the growing religious extremism in this country and concentrate on mocking them. Taking the easy option and ignoring the difficult one. I wonder how long it'll take you all to realise ignoring the difficult issue isn't making it go away.

[DE.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-22689552

Militant keaners, what's wrong with them?

Meanwhile, the EDL make good use of their time in other ways:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/woolwich-backlash-ten-attacks-on-mosques-since-murder-of-drummer-lee-rigby-8633594.html

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Is that an argument? Bloody hell, at least Bin Laden's best mate responds directly to points. Shall I go find a link to that idiotic preacher who refused to criticise Lee Rigby's murderers, and then find one of an EDL member helping an old lady cross the street? Maybe I should find one of Burnley beating Rovers in 1979 and use it to say what a great team they have. Posting individual links that you've specifically looked for is just about the most irrational way to conduct an argument there is.

[Stuart]

The EDL seem to be coming out of the murder of a British soldier worse than the killers themselves.

But can I ask, to avoid generalising, what collective term should we use to refer to those people who kill in the name of Islam? Because apart from being bad at spelling and otherwise I'll-educated, I can't recall the last time I read about the EDL murdering anyone. Unless I've missed them - I don't really keep up with it.

It'd be good to be able to have a badge that we can point at so that we can avoid offending the sensibilities of the millions of good Muslims. You know, just to even things up.

Thanks in advance.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Can anyone give an answer to this burning question:

Why do we never see an anti-Muslim extremist protest/march by the law abiding Muslim majority who reside in this Country?

[Steve Moss]

Play the Taliban's game?

Are you serious?

Evidence isn't a game, it's due process. Something that America urged on Britain and France in Nurembourg, but apparently forgot in their own time of grievance. Classified information? It only needed to be kept secret if it caused a national security issue, but even by the time they got round the having the Commission report this evidence was still conspicuous by its absence.

But hey, I'm talking to someone who has previously endorsed the idea that the US is entitled to take military action to advance economic interests, what was I thinking.

Second, most Americans I know wouldn't say they feel more safe now compared with 15 years ago, but maybe that's down to incidents like Fort Hood and Boston.

Yes, I am serious.

War and national security is not about due process. I'm sure the Islamofacists would love it to become so, in order to further delay our responses and tie up resources, but in America at least we aren't playing with kid gloves on.

What American economic interest was present in Afghanistan? Last I checked, it has no oil and mineral worth of interest to the USA. As a safe harbor for terrorists, I see the national security interests which is why we invaded.

As to oil being the reason America invaded, perhaps you should update yourself on current events as opposed to parroting slogans. America has not tried to monopolize Iraqi oil. In fact, it appears that China is aggressively pursuing Iraqi oil with American companies being described as "barely active" (though US engineering companies appear to be doing well). http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/03/27/187100/iraqi-oil-once-seen-as-us-boon.html#.UaUTm0DqmCk

And of course let's ignore the 60 billion American taxpayers have spent in an effort to rebuild the country. Somehow if our positions we're reversed I doubt the uber-benevolent Muslims would have reciprocated.

As to the pre- and post-9/11 terrorist attacks, its more or less the same. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/americanattacks.htm. Our response to 9/11 proved to the world (including Muslim extremists) that if they do such a thing again there is nowhere and nothing that will stop us from killing everyone associated with the atrocity. And I think that's a good thing.

As the article points out, if America were a hotbed of Muslim hatred we'd be killing resident Muslims by the tens of thousands considering the: 310 million population; the 2.75 million Muslims living in the USA; and, 300 million plus firearms in private ownership. That hasn't happened, which is clearly demonstrative that it is America (and the UK and Western culture in general) which is accepting and open-minded, as opposed to Muslim extremists who have not come close to demonstrating anything similar to the same level acceptance and open-mindedness:

Christian persecution in Afghanistan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Afghanistan

Egyptians killing Christian Copts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts

Indonesian persecution of Christians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Indonesia

Iraqi killing those with Christian last names: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iraq

Murder of Christians in Pakistan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Pakistan

Somalian Muslims beheading Christian working on orphanages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Somalia

Muslims killing Christians in Nigeria: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Nigeria

And as to the man you seemingly defend, how many fatwas did he issue against "Jews and Crusaders"? By the way, what do you think of him lumping his fellow Muslims, albeit Shias, into the same category?

[Stuart]

It is quite amazing how a bit of talk and diplomacy can actually work.

Well done to both the EDL and the mosque.

More of this please!

[Audax]

Yes, I am serious.

War and national security is not about due process. I'm sure the Islamofacists would love it to become so, in order to further delay our responses and tie up resources, but in America at least we aren't playing with kid gloves on.

What American economic interest was present in Afghanistan? Last I checked, it has no oil and mineral worth of interest to the USA. As a safe harbor for terrorists, I see the national security interests which is why we invaded.

As to oil being the reason America invaded, perhaps you should update yourself on current events as opposed to parroting slogans. America has not tried to monopolize Iraqi oil. In fact, it appears that China is aggressively pursuing Iraqi oil with American companies being described as "barely active" (though US engineering companies appear to be doing well). http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/03/27/187100/iraqi-oil-once-seen-as-us-boon.html#.UaUTm0DqmCk

And of course let's ignore the 60 billion American taxpayers have spent in an effort to rebuild the country. Somehow if our positions we're reversed I doubt the uber-benevolent Muslims would have reciprocated.

As to the pre- and post-9/11 terrorist attacks, its more or less the same. http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/americanattacks.htm. Our response to 9/11 proved to the world (including Muslim extremists) that if they do such a thing again there is nowhere and nothing that will stop us from killing everyone associated with the atrocity. And I think that's a good thing.

As the article points out, if America were a hotbed of Muslim hatred we'd be killing resident Muslims by the tens of thousands considering the: 310 million population; the 2.75 million Muslims living in the USA; and, 300 million plus firearms in private ownership. That hasn't happened, which is clearly demonstrative that it is America (and the UK and Western culture in general) which is accepting and open-minded, as opposed to Muslim extremists who have not come close to demonstrating anything similar to the same level acceptance and open-mindedness:

Christian persecution in Afghanistan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Afghanistan

Egyptians killing Christian Copts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Copts

Indonesian persecution of Christians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Indonesia

Iraqi killing those with Christian last names: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Iraq

Murder of Christians in Pakistan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Pakistan

Somalian Muslims beheading Christian working on orphanages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Somalia

Muslims killing Christians in Nigeria: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Nigeria

And as to the man you seemingly defend, how many fatwas did he issue against "Jews and Crusaders"? By the way, what do you think of him lumping his fellow Muslims, albeit Shias, into the same category?

That's all bad.

This is the year 2013, Iran just closed a church and arrested the Pentecost Pastor: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/iranian-government-arrests-christian-pastor-closes-church/

Oldest Mosque in England, est. 1889: http://www.shahjahanmosque.org.uk/

[Audax]

Nigerian Govt. went after Boko Haram, Extremists big time but not until the Militants killed a lot of people and almost seized 3 states.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-22587901

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/nigeria-deploys-army-northeast-fight-rebels-19185854#.UaVnCtgvljN

From the 2nd article, the Nigerian Govt. cut the phone lines and sent in warplanes after the militants.

This just happened in the last 10 days and they more or less, reportedly decimated them.

http://www.vanguardngr.com/ and http://www.thetidenewsonline.com/ Nigerian newspapers just for the heck of it.

Nigeria has quite a lot of trouble, also with war lords in the oil producing regions too but has over 162 million people, so it is a very populous country.

[ABBEY]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/05/28/lee-rigby-tribute-poppy-help-for-heroes-bracelet-_n_3346074.html?

[DE.]

Is that an argument?

Nope, just points of interest. Both very recent and linked to this issue, which none of your strange examples in this rant were. I haven't got the time or patience to write essays regarding the subject matter, all I'd suggest is that you put down your copy of the Daily Mail and gain a wider perspective on things. The world isn't so simple.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Nope, just points of interest. Both very recent and linked to this issue, which none of your strange examples in this rant were. I haven't got the time or patience to write essays regarding the subject matter, all I'd suggest is that you put down your copy of the Daily Mail and gain a wider perspective on things. The world isn't so simple.

Well they weren't just points of interest because you commented on both of them, as if your examples were the definitive verdict on both parties. I didn't use any examples, I attempted to give a sense of perspective, used an analogy, pointed out how different peoples' reaction would be if the reverse version of Lee Rigby's murder had happened and then speculated on the reasons why they would be different.

You haven't got the time or patience to construct a decent argument and yet you somehow think you're in an intellectually superior position to use the the boring old generalisation about reading the Daily Mail and then give me some patronising advice. Just so you know, being a lefty doesn't make you clever, far from it in the majority of political debates I've ever encountered. This Steve Moss guy has posted more logical, sensible and well-researched stuff in this thread than 95% of the vague leftist drivel thats been produced, gumboots and 1 or 2 others posts aside.

He hasn't received much in the way of counter-argument yet though, one reply posting a clip from Team America, one defending Osama Bin Laden (the mind boggles) and naff all else. I'm sure someone will win the argument by calling him a Daily Mail reader though.

[thenodrog]

The issue there is the definition of "problem". Just having people of different skin colours and ethnic backgrounds will be a problem for some.

Skin colour and race isn't an issue. Islam is. It's ambition emulates that of a cuckoo which lays a single egg in a nest that when hatched destroys all the other fledglings and takes everything for itself. It is busy here driving a wedge into our national tolerance as it is around many other European countries. History has told us time and again how intolerant, troublesome and primitive that religion is toward the rest of humanity yet 50 years ago this country put out the welcome matt and invited it in without regulation. Somewhere north of 50 mosques in just Blackburn alone now with goodness knows how many madrassa's and many schools in Blackburn have been or are being hi-jacked to the cause. It'll end sometime of course and it won't be pretty.

[jim mk2]

W This Steve Moss guy has posted more logical, sensible and well-researched stuff in this thread

Just because you agree with him doesn't mean he is correct. All his posts pedal the same right-wing Tea party mantra that has been ridiculed in the US and led to Republicans being marginalised in more and more US states and losing the last election by an even bigger majority than in 2008. The same is happening here with the Tories who have now failed to win an election in this country since 1992 and are unlikely to do so again in 2015. The majority of people do not take your view of Islam, do not see religious extremism as a rising threat and rightly see Woolwich as an isolated event by a lone wolf attacker. Are you surprised someone compares your posts to a Daily Mail leader column when you comes across as some sort of Lancastrian Alf Garnett ?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Just because you agree with him doesn't mean he is correct. All his posts pedal the same right-wing Tea party mantra that has been ridiculed in the US and led to Republicans being marginalised in more and more US states and losing the last election by an even bigger majority than in 2008. The same is happening here with the Tories who have now failed to win an election in this country since 1992 and are unlikely to do so again in 2015. The majority of people do not take your view of Islam, do not see religious extremism as a rising threat and rightly see Woolwich as an isolated event by a lone wolf attacker. Are you surprised someone compares your posts to a Daily Mail leader column when you comes across as some sort of Lancastrian Alf Garnett ?

No I'm not surprised, assigning ignorant stereotypes to people to score points seems to be a common theme among leftist arguments, an amusing phenomenon given the amount of time they spend arguing against such a practice in relation to others. I fail to see what it adds to the argument but its always trotted out at some point as if its a masterstroke of discussion or hilarious observation, of which of course its neither.

You know what the majority of people think? Thats quite a skill. No chance many who share my view are scared to express it for fear of branded racist I suppose. Time will tell whether Woolwich is an isolated incident, I sincerely hope you're right but I find that prediction pretty astonishing given the number of terrorist plots by "citizens" of this country the authorities have thwarted in the past few years and the number of people they've arrested.

[DE.]

Well they weren't just points of interest because you commented on both of them, as if your examples were the definitive verdict on both parties. I didn't use any examples, I attempted to give a sense of perspective, used an analogy, pointed out how different peoples' reaction would be if the reverse version of Lee Rigby's murder had happened and then speculated on the reasons why they would be different.

Obviously my comments are my opinion and not a verdict. The difference between my links and your analogies were that mine directly linked to what happened in Woolwich, whereas yours had literally nothing to do with it. I have no idea what sense of perspective you thought you were giving, but it's certainly not one relevant to the events in Woolwich. I'm dealing with things that actually happened, not speculative events. If you're able to find articles showing the EDL has done something positive in the wake of this incident, or that proper Muslims (and I'm not talking extremist nutjobs) have done something offensive, then by all means postulate these as rebuttals. Otherwise I don't consider random analogies based on speculation relevant.

You haven't got the time or patience to construct a decent argument and yet you somehow think you're in an intellectually superior position to use the the boring old generalisation about reading the Daily Mail and then give me some patronising advice. Just so you know, being a lefty doesn't make you clever, far from it in the majority of political debates I've ever encountered. This Steve Moss guy has posted more logical, sensible and well-researched stuff in this thread than 95% of the vague leftist drivel thats been produced, gumboots and 1 or 2 others posts aside.

I've never mentioned anything about intellectual superiority, in fact I know a lot of very intelligent people who harbour baffling religious and/or political views, so I'm not sure the two are linked. I only referenced the Daily Mail as a lot of your posts in this thread read like you've taken 2 or 3 rants from the comments section of DM articles and spliced them together. For what it's worth I don't consider myself a 'lefty', I don't think being open-minded towards race/religion or being distrustful of the Government is specific to the left. In fact plenty of right-wingers actively call out the Government in both the UK and the US for being too clandestine. I'm pretty much dead-centre in my views, which I like to think gives a decent balance of both viewpoints.

He hasn't received much in the way of counter-argument yet though, one reply posting a clip from Team America, one defending Osama Bin Laden (the mind boggles) and naff all else. I'm sure someone will win the argument by calling him a Daily Mail reader though.

I personally am not going to argue with Steve as I'm at almost total polar opposites with him in regards to my views. At best if we did debate it would end in a stalemate and a "you have your view, I have mine" scenario. There's no point going through an entire process of debate to come to that conclusion.

I'm curious as to where you think bin Laden is being defended. If you're talking about Jeru, all he's said (quite correctly) is that there's no evidence to link OBL to 9/11. This is admitted by the FBI in public, so it's hardly a radical view. There can be no question bin Laden was a dangerous man with warped ideaologies, and the world is better off without him, but the war on Afghanistan was started by the USA disguarding the need for evidence and demanding the extradition of a man without any evidence or right to do so. Bin Laden being dead is of no concern, but the morally questionable incursion into Afghanistan (and completely illegal hostile takeover of Iraq) has in retrospect likely caused huge problems which we as a society are going to have to deal with for a very long time.

As an aside, I'm also still waiting for somebody to tell me why if Islamic extremism is such a huge, horrific problem in the UK and that the majority of Muslims in this country agree with the extremist ideaology there aren't more attacks like the one in Woolwich. Even on a monthly basis, let alone weekly or daily. Are MI5 stopping thousands upon thousands of Muslims from committing these attacks? Or is this supposed pandemic just scaremongering whipped up by the xenophobic elements of the far-right and fuelled by red-top media?

[LeChuck]

What American economic interest was present in Afghanistan? Last I checked, it has no oil and mineral worth of interest to the USA.

Apart from the estimated $1 trillion worth of Lithium you mean? Lithium that is required to power mobile devices and electric cars for the foreseeable future.

http://news.discovery.com/earth/afghanistan-minerals-lithium.htm

[jim mk2]

No I'm not surprised, assigning ignorant stereotypes to people to score points seems to be a common theme among leftist arguments, an amusing phenomenon given the amount of time they spend arguing against such a practice in relation to others. I fail to see what it adds to the argument but its always trotted out at some point as if its a masterstroke of discussion or hilarious observation, of which of course its neither.

You know what the majority of people think? Thats quite a skill. No chance many who share my view are scared to express it for fear of branded racist I suppose. Time will tell whether Woolwich is an isolated incident, I sincerely hope you're right but I find that prediction pretty astonishing given the number of terrorist plots by "citizens" of this country the authorities have thwarted in the past few years and the number of people they've arrested.

I never claimed my comment of your views to be a "masterstroke of discussion" or even "hilarious" but was intended merely as an observation of the way you come across However if you see yourself as an "ignorant stereotype" I won't argue.

People who share your views are to be seen in the comment pages of the right-wing press every day and I don't see them being branded racist. The silent, tolerant majority usually keep their counsel. Although a lone wolf attack is always possible, Woolwich is likely to be an isolated incident because of the success of the authorities in clamping down on extremist organisations. Until last week there have been no significant terrorist incidents in this country since 2005. Contrary to popular opinion and the rantings of the right terrorism is on the decline both here and in the US. You can learn more by reading this.

http://www.politicususa.com/attention-republicans-terrorism-decline-1970s.html

[Steve Moss]

Apart from the estimated $1 trillion worth of Lithium you mean? Lithium that is required to power mobile devices and electric cars for the foreseeable future.

http://news.discovery.com/earth/afghanistan-minerals-lithium.htm

Good for the Afghanis. I hope it makes them rich and they spend their new found fortune prudently.

Two points:

1. The Feb. 11, 2013 article is clear the the extent of Afghanistan's mineral wealth is just being determined. Are you claiming the post 9/11 invasion was motivated to seize mineral wealth we didn't know exist?

2. For the mineral wealth we did know exist, copper, again it appears to be China which is exploiting it. The article even concedes that the US is fighting the Taliban while China reaps the mineral benefits, much to the ire of some politicians.

Again, those who think the US went to war to exploit the mineral and oil resources of Afghanistan and Iraq are very much off base.

[Steve Moss]

I'm curious as to where you think bin Laden is being defended. If you're talking about Jeru, all he's said (quite correctly) is that there's no evidence to link OBL to 9/11.

Actually, he's quite incorrect about that, as usual. There is plenty of evidence linking Bin Laden to 9/11.

What Jeru relies upon (and twists) is an FBI publicity officer saying there was no "hard" evidence linking bin Laden to 9/11.The fact that this was rebutted by FBI investigative officers apparently matters naught. Here's an overview of the discussion as to the no hard evidence statement and what it means: http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Connecting_bin_Laden_to_9-11

Here's an in depth analysis of those responsible for 9/11 based on public information to date: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_September_11_attacks.

Here's on paragraph establishing pre-attack knowledge:

"Authorities in the United States and Britain also obtained electronic intercepts, including telephone conversations and electronic bank transfers, which indicate that Mohammed Atef, a bin Laden deputy, was a key figure in the planning of the 9/11 attacks. Intercepts were also obtained that revealed conversations that took place days before September 11 between bin Laden and an associate in Pakistan. In those conversations, the two referred to "an incident that would take place in America on, or around, September 11" and they discussed potential repercussions. In another conversation with an associate in Afghanistan, bin Laden discussed the "scale and effects of a forthcoming operation." These conversations did not specifically mention the World Trade Center or Pentagon, or other specifics.[24]"

[DE.]

Have read that whole page Steve but it doesn't really debunk anything, just suggests the FBI are vague about their "hard evidence" talk. Take away the supposed confession tapes and you don't have much, really, except this elusive audio that doesn't mention any specifics. In fact judging from those quotes in your post at best you could say bin Laden knew about the operation, not that he was a part of it or the mastermind. Obviously would have to hear the audio in full to understand the context of the conversation though, and I'm guessing this hasn't been publically released?

[thenodrog]

The same is happening here with the Tories who have now failed to win an election in this country since 1992 and are unlikely to do so again in 2015. The majority of people do not take your view of Islam, do not see religious extremism as a rising threat and rightly see Woolwich as an isolated event by a lone wolf attacker. Are you surprised someone compares your posts to a Daily Mail leader column when you comes across as some sort of Lancastrian Alf Garnett ?

Thought that was me?

btw You've probably blocked it from your mind but the Tories won the election in 2010..... Mighty good job they did too, else we'd be going down the tubes with the O'PIGS.

[jim mk2]

Thought that was me?

btw You've probably blocked it from your mind but the Tories won the election in 2010..... Mighty good job they did too, else we'd be going down the tubes with the O'PIGS.

Which bunker have you been hiding in ? There was a hung parliament in 2010 and the Tories and Lib Dems formed a coalition government. It's one reason the "swivel-eyed loons" on the Tory right hate Cameron because he failed to deliver an outright Tory victory. It's statements like the above which show your political views to be worthless..