[Archived] Hang Em High

[T.J.Newton]

EDL are softcore scumbags

Terrorists(of any persuasion) are hardcore scumbags.

[Stuart]

I just find it a bit hypocritical that people can take a perspective that murderers - who kill in the name of Islam - have everyone up in arms... but about a group of people who are angry about it.

It seems that one minority group must be treated with kid gloves yet another must be treated with disdain.

Whether you or I agree with their concerns - yes, concerns - is not the issue. BOTH sides must be allowed to speak and must listen to each other if there is to be any progress. This is still a democracy, isn't it?

People need to stop being afraid to say the wrong thing and say what they think. Then have a proper debate about it. Ignorance is not always bliss.

Chaudhry is allowed a platform yet Robinson is not. Seemingly because one is much more articulate than the other?

@Abbey: Any bozo could have done that.

The problem with this is that, if it were proven to have been an Islamic group who had done this then another excuse would be made for it - fringe nut jobs, or other separatist group. If it were found to be EDL then the whole EDL movement would be vilified. Doesn't work both ways, does it?

[Mike E]

I just find it a bit hypocritical that people can take a perspective that murderers - who kill in the name of Islam - have everyone up in arms... but about a group of people who are angry about it.

It seems that one minority group must be treated with kid gloves yet another must be treated with disdain.

Whether you or I agree with their concerns - yes, concerns - is not the issue. BOTH sides must be allowed to speak and must listen to each other if there is to be any progress. This is still a democracy, isn't it?

People need to stop being afraid to say the wrong thing and say what they think. Then have a proper debate about it. Ignorance is not always bliss.

Chaudhry is allowed a platform yet Robinson is not. Seemingly because one is much more articulate than the other?

The problem with this is that, if it were proven to have been an Islamic group who had done this then another excuse would be made for it - fringe nut jobs, or other separatist group. If it were found to be EDL then the whole EDL movement would be vilified. Doesn't work both ways, does it?

Because the edl are a group whose aims are apparently racist. Islam is a peace-loving religion. That's the difference.

Islam doesn't condone violence whereas it appears the EDL does.

[Amo]

Islam doesn't condone violence whereas it appears the EDL does.

Doesn't Islam prescribe death for apostasy?

[Stuart]

Because the edl are a group whose aims are apparently racist. Islam is a peace-loving religion. That's the difference.

Islam doesn't condone violence whereas it appears the EDL does.

Not sure where to start with that post.

'Naive' is about as kindly as I can put it.

[Steve Moss]

Because the edl are a group whose aims are apparently racist. Islam is a peace-loving religion. That's the difference.

Islam doesn't condone violence whereas it appears the EDL does.

Islam is a peace loving religion? Islam doesn't condone violence? On what do you base this assertion, other than jabbering, mentally lazy politicians?

Here's some of my favorites:

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more fitna (disorder, unbelief) and religion should be only for Allah"

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."

A more comprehensive list can be found at: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/023-violence.htm

And if you are non-Muslim living in Muslim lands you are historically taxed and regulated while Muslims are not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

Islam is not purely a religion. The Quran and the Hadiths mix religion and politics indiscriminately. It regulates rights under the law, including condoning/encouraging the killing of non-believers who do not submit.

It is not a religion of peace. It is a manifesto adopting an expansionist mission by whatever means possible, preferably persuasion but, if not, including resort to war and terror.

[DE.]

Meanwhile, in the Old/New Testament...

“When the LORD your God brings you into the land where you are entering to possess it, and clears away many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and stronger than you. And when the LORD your God delivers them before you and you defeat them, then you shall utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them and show no favor to them. (Deutronomy 7:1-2)

“When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace. If it agrees to make peace with you and opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall become your forced labor and shall serve you. However, if it does not make peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it. When the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall strike all the men in it with the edge of the sword. Only the women and the children and the animals and all that is in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourself; and you shall use the spoil of your enemies which the LORD your God has given you… Only in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes (Deutronomy 20:10-17)

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, sparefor yourselves. (Numbers 31:17-18)

“I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence. (Luke 19:26-27)

Suffice to say most religious texts have some pretty grim passages. Most of those who follow a religion are aware of this and adjust their values based on the context of their lives. Then there are nutjobs on both sides who take everything literally and commit atrocities in the name of their respective religions.

Believe it or not, I don't think taking away religion or abolishing it would solve much. The issue is rooted in humans, religion is just a consequence of an innate desire in the majority of humans to expand and conquer.

[broadsword]

Meanwhile,

Believe it or not, I don't think taking away religion or abolishing it would solve much. The issue is rooted in humans, religion is just a consequence of an innate desire in the majority of humans to expand and conquer.

Yes, I agree, it's just a handy categorisation.

Humans are tribal and have a desire to get rucking, if it wasn't Islam versus Kuffars then it would be East versus West, Whites versus Asians, Beards versus non-beards, humans will always find a reason to fear and try to destroy what they don't understand/ don't like.

And while we're at it, WW2 wasn't about religion and Stalin was an atheist.

I'm no bible whacker, but fair's fair.

[thenodrog]

Because the edl are a group whose aims are apparently racist. Islam is a peace-loving religion. That's the difference.

Islam doesn't condone violence whereas it appears the EDL does.

I can't quite get my head around your opinion given the regular atrocities committed all around the globe in the name of Islam. Can you list any similar atrocities carried out by members of the EDL?

I've got to say that from what I am seeing, hearing and reading at the moment that the EDL are being repeatedly used as a diversionary tactic by all manner of people who want to keep the lid on the killing in broad daylight and in public of an innocent serving British Soldier on the streets of the British capital by 'British' people of immigrant background perpetrated in the name of Islam.

Stuff the EDL they are not dangerous at all, they are nothing but bit part players. We need to address the primary issue and not shirk from our responsibility to the nation and to future generations. No amount of mudslinging at a few shaven headed knobheads will make this issue go away.

In fact Enoch Powell sacrificed his political career for having the temerity to suggest ...........

"The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils. In seeking to do so, it encounters obstacles which are deeply rooted in human nature..........

......... Above all, people are disposed to mistake predicting troubles for causing troubles and even for desiring troubles: "If only," they love to think, "if only people wouldn't talk about it, it probably wouldn't happen." Perhaps this habit goes back to the primitive belief that the word and the thing, the name and the object, are identical. At all events, the discussion of future grave but, with effort now, avoidable evils is the most unpopular and at the same time the most necessary occupation for the politician. Those who knowingly shirk it deserve, and not infrequently receive, the curses of those who come after. "

Thank you Ted @#/? Heath whose actions spawned an endless list of politicians who have turned a blind eye and shirked their sworn duty in favour of their career!

[broadsword]

This fella's trying desperately hard to stir it up, I wonder if anyone will have a pop at him in due course:

[Steve Moss]

Meanwhile, in the Old/New Testament...

Suffice to say most religious texts have some pretty grim passages. Most of those who follow a religion are aware of this and adjust their values based on the context of their lives. Then there are nutjobs on both sides who take everything literally and commit atrocities in the name of their respective religions.

Believe it or not, I don't think taking away religion or abolishing it would solve much. The issue is rooted in humans, religion is just a consequence of an innate desire in the majority of humans to expand and conquer.

Two points:

1. I agree that the Old Testament is incredibly violent in regards to believers vs. non-believers. I can see Mohammed drew a lot of inspiration from it.

2. The New Testament is not. It is about making a new covenant with the people. What you quoted was Luke 19:27, which is the last line of a PARABLE that Jesus told his disciples (specifically the Parable of Midas, Luke 19:11-27). The dictionary defines a "parable" as "A simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson, as told by Jesus in the Gospels."

The simple spiritual story of of the Parable of the Minas is:

First, Jesus will leave his disciples for an undetermined amount of time. Second, Jesus will return to consummate his kingdom some time in the future. Third, disciples of Jesus who are good stewards in his absence will receive incredible rewards from him upon his return. Fourth, disciples of Jesus who are poor stewards in his absence will have their rewards taken away and given to the disciples who are good stewards. Fifth, those who reject Jesus as the rightful king will face a terrible judgment upon his return.

Or even more simply- If you are a good person you will be awarded on Judgment Day. If you are a horrible sinner who wastes the time and resources the Lord has invested in you, you will be punished on Judgment Day. In the meantime, in the physical world (here and now) there is no consequence as no one is judged until Jesus returns.

Unlike the Quran there is no incitement to violence against other people in the physical world in the New Testament. There are plenty of warnings as to consequences in the hereafter.

But carry on with the half-baked moral equivalency.

[DE.]

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

oops.

(4:25) "For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath." -- The US Republican Party motto

On second thought, now I see why you're a fan.

[Mike E]

Ok, poorly worded (and maybe I actually am quite naive). But as far as I know the majority of muslims are peace-loving regular people like the rest of us, who have a different faith. Whereas the EDL is very specifically against Islam for little reason other than causing trouble (imo). I've seen more violence aimed at muslims by the EDL than from muslims to anyone.

[Steve Moss]

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

On second thought, now I see why you're a fan.

I'll try again, just to see if the distinction sinks through:

Jesus spoke in parables and warned of dangers to one's soul (in graphic terms) in the afterlife for failing to comply with his teachings.

Mohammed instructed his followers to cut off the unbelievers' heads and fingers in the here and now, unless they submitted.

Which poses a threat to the public safety? I'll give you a clue, depending on your belief system:

1. If you are a good Christian, Jesus will reward you in the hereafter.

2. If you are an atheist or follower of another religion, Jesus can't hurt you in the hereafter as he doesn't exist.

3. If you are bad or unrepentant Christian, Jesus won't save your soul into hell.

4. If you are a bad Muslim, Allah-God won't save your soul from hell in the hereafter.

5. If you good Muslim, you will be rewarded in the hereafter for many things, ranging from the laudable or at least inoffensive (fasting, giving and traveling to Mecca) to the violent (slaughtering Christians, Jews, members of other religions, and atheists if they fail to submit).

People will always find a reason to kill other people. Resources, politics, nationality, ethnicity, skin color, etc. As religions go, Islam gives its adherents who are inclined toward violence plenty of motivation to indulge. You'd have to go back to the old Norse beliefs of dying with a sword in hand to find anything comparable.

Ok, poorly worded (and maybe I actually am quite naive). But as far as I know the majority of muslims are peace-loving regular people like the rest of us, who have a different faith.

I agree. Most Muslims are peace loving as most people are peace loving. There is no genetic difference between Muslims and non-Muslims, both have the usual run of human behaviors.

For the non-peace loving, however, Islam gives its adherents every excuse to indulge any appetite for violence.

[DE.]

People will always find a reason to kill other people. Resources, politics, nationality, ethnicity, skin color, etc. As religions go, Islam gives its adherents who are inclined toward violence plenty of motivation to indulge. You'd have to go back to the old Norse beliefs of dying with a sword in hand to find anything comparable.

Speaking of swords, a quote from big JHC himself: "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Peaceful indeed. I'm not sure if you're a Christian Steve, but as far as I'm concerned Islam and Christianity are as bad as each other. Jesus endorses the Old Testament as completely valid in the NT so I'm afraid there's no ignoring that. Even if you were to invalidate the rules of the OT, it doesn't change the fact that within Christianity it's still considered legitimate scripture.

Maybe Muslims should release a Qur'an 2/New Qur'an where God/the Prophet are nicer. Then they can ignore the parts of original Qur'an they don't like too.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

You seem like a reasonable, intelligent bloke Tyrone.

Why wouldn't you listen to concerns of people who support the EDL?

You're right re your first sentence. I've been around the block a few times over the last 50 years and I've seen all these right wing movements come and go. I can just about remember Oswald Moseley and his " British Union Of Fascists " . Nothing really has changed, just ' Old dogs, new collars ' . All they seek to do is distract you from the real issues and turn you against your neighbour or fellow worker. Whilst you're arguing amongst yourself they're safe. I'm pleased to see the family of the squaddie killed have distanced themselves from the right wing circus that is gathering around the death of their son.

[Stuart]

Ok, poorly worded (and maybe I actually am quite naive). But as far as I know the majority of muslims are peace-loving regular people like the rest of us, who have a different faith. Whereas the EDL is very specifically against Islam for little reason other than causing trouble (imo). I've seen more violence aimed at muslims by the EDL than from muslims to anyone.

Have you? How many? How do they compare to what happened last week? Or 7/7? Or 9/11?

How many people have been killed by the EDL?

Although it may not seem like it, the EDL aren't an organisation I particularly want to defend but you really are barking up the wrong tree with this one, Mike.

[thenodrog]

Ok, poorly worded (and maybe I actually am quite naive). But as far as I know the majority of muslims are peace-loving regular people like the rest of us, who have a different faith. Whereas the EDL is very specifically against Islam for little reason other than causing trouble (imo). I've seen more violence aimed at muslims by the EDL than from muslims to anyone.

Unbelievable! You are beyond hope.

[T.J.Newton]

I haven't seen the edl actually compared to terrorists anywhere, there both being mentioned a lot and criticized but not directly compared to ech other in any way and its obvious edl are going to take up more column inches, news stories etc. because they are out in the open and making no attempt to hide or disguise their stupidity right now.

Unbelievable! You are beyond hope.

if he's talking about violence he has seen in person or happened local to him, then its not that unbelievable.

[Steve Moss]

Speaking of swords, a quote from big JHC himself: "I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Peaceful indeed. I'm not sure if you're a Christian Steve, but as far as I'm concerned Islam and Christianity are as bad as each other. Jesus endorses the Old Testament as completely valid in the NT so I'm afraid there's no ignoring that. Even if you were to invalidate the rules of the OT, it doesn't change the fact that within Christianity it's still considered legitimate scripture.

Maybe Muslims should release a Qur'an 2/New Qur'an where God/the Prophet are nicer. Then they can ignore the parts of original Qur'an they don't like too.

And exactly where does "the big JHC" say to go stick the sword into the unbeliever (to use your reference)? He doesn't. When he makes reference war,

swords, violence, etc. but each and everyone will be in reference to either a parable or a prediction of a future event (mostly what to expect after death).

You have not, and won't, find one quotation from the "big JHC" that advocates killing or maiming another as a method of obtaining salvation.

By contrast, Muhammad, speaking on behalf of God/Allah, advocated killing and maiming others as a method of obtaining salvation.

If you are incapable of grasping the distinction, then that reflects poorly on your reasoning ability.

For the record I'm a Christian (specifically a Methodist) but I confess I'm not a good one.

[adopted scouser]

This fella's trying desperately hard to stir it up, I wonder if anyone will have a pop at him in due course:

@#/? him and @#/? Islam

[Mike E]

Erm....I mean incidents I have personally witnessed. I've never been to New York, nor was I a witness to 7/7. A friend of mine was gravely affected by the 7/7 attack, but he (and I) has (and have) the sense to realise that the act of a few mean I shouldn't immediately detest the friends I have who are of the same faith. Or should I hate my uncle for the same crimes because he too wears a beard?

Members of the EDL have regularly declared war on islam (it was even on their site) but I have yet to see similar from any 'majority' of muslims.

[Stuart]

Erm....I mean incidents I have personally witnessed. I've never been to New York, nor was I a witness to 7/7. A friend of mine was gravely affected by the 7/7 attack, but he (and I) has (and have) the sense to realise that the act of a few mean I shouldn't immediately detest the friends I have who are of the same faith. Or should I hate my uncle for the same crimes because he too wears a beard?

Members of the EDL have regularly declared war on islam (it was even on their site) but I have yet to see similar from any 'majority' of muslims.

You really think that the EDL "have declared war on Islam" yet there is no Islamic "war" on the West? Maybe we should do a count and compare the number of people killed by each in the name of war, during the time since the EDL was formed?

It's amazing how philosophical you can be about a religion which has seen so many recent MURDERS in it's name, yet seem to have a blind hatred of a few numpties. Bigotry works both ways.

I genuinely hope that you or your family never personally have to suffer the effects of an atrocity perpetuated in the name of Islam but I fear that is what it will take before you will see the difference. Although even then I doubt you would. I think that your perspective stems from a fear/hatred of football hooligans from your own personal experience.

If there were loads more of those tea parties and the EDL decided to dissolve, do you think that the problem of Islamic hatred of the West, and associated atrocities, would cease? Of course not, because the EDL really aren't that important in the scheme of things. Except to people trying to shift the focus away from the real problem. One that can't be spoken about for a fear of being labelled "....ist" or ".......phobic" by mealy-mouthed liberals.

Even extremist Muslims are probably laughing at the EDL because they are helping buy them sympathy. They don't care about the EDL they hate the UK government and military far more. A government which welcomes them into the country and ensures that laws are enforced to protect people them hate crimes, and a military which fights against Islamic extremists in order to preserve a democracy which allows British Muslims the right to demonstrate AGAINST the UK government and military.

Mike, there is a video in this thread of a documentary covering such a demonstration. Please watch it and let me know if the people and the opinions shown represent the people and opinions (be honest now) of Muslim people or if they are simply extremists.

[thenodrog]

if he's talking about violence he has seen in person or happened local to him, then its not that unbelievable.

He's alive isn't he?

[thenodrog]

@#/? him and @#/? Islam

Interesting... (or would 'revealing' be a better term) how if the EDL organise a march in a town or city that there is immediately a counter march organised by unite against fascism and similar groups yet when these troublemaking muslim bstards organise a public rally to gain support for their cause jihad I never see a counter demo across the street from the millions of 'moderate' muslims who we are continually informed are just as much against extremism and terrorism as we are.

I'm beginning to think a 'moderate' muslim is just a myth perpetrated with the intention to mislead and misguide the more impressionable. Anybody else wonder the same?

Erm....I mean incidents I have personally witnessed. I've never been to New York, nor was I a witness to 7/7. A friend of mine was gravely affected by the 7/7 attack, but he (and I) has (and have) the sense to realise that the act of a few mean I shouldn't immediately detest the friends I have who are of the same faith. Or should I hate my uncle for the same crimes because he too wears a beard?

Members of the EDL have regularly declared war on islam (it was even on their site) but I have yet to see similar from any 'majority' of muslims.

baseless argument cos the EDL don't constitute a majority amongst non muslims either.