[Archived] Hang Em High

[broadsword]

Did I not read somewhere that Zimmerman is Mexican?

Jusdt something I read that appears not to have been mentioned here. Perhaps relevant if we're going to start talking about race.

[Steve Moss]

Zimmerman is of Hispanic heritage.

Martin was black.

The special prosecutor was a woman (I don't know the ethnicity).

The judge was a white woman.

The jury was all female, no men. I don't know thier ethnicity though I do know both the defense and prosecutor agreed to them serving.

[Tom]

Self defence - with a gun, for me it highlights everything that is wrong about US gun laws, It only takes a twitchy disposition and an ominous looking stranger to end in a fatality, but I suppose thats a different discussion for a different thread.

[Steve Moss]

A rock is a deadly weapon. A concrete slab is a deadly weapon. If you place someone in a reasonable fear that they are at riak of serious injury, then deadly force to prevent it is justified.

To give an example, when the Redocats fired on an American mob, killing many, a colonial jury acquited the British soldiers as rocks were being thrown at them. A simple rock can kill. So deadly force was appropriate.

[jim mk2]

Any excuse to bring race into it.

Did the white folks attack the police after Simpson's aquittal ?

By whom ? Certainly not me.

Read the reports of this case on the internet.

[ABBEY]

In that case what's this minority thing then you wrote about?

[adopted scouser]

By whom ? Certainly not me.

Read the reports of this case on the internet.

I didn't suggest you did Jim. I just wonder if the reaction would have been as vocal had the roles been reversed.

Probably not.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

A rock is a deadly weapon. A concrete slab is a deadly weapon. If you place someone in a reasonable fear that they are at riak of serious injury, then deadly force to prevent it is justified.

To give an example, when the Redocats fired on an American mob, killing many, a colonial jury acquited the British soldiers as rocks were being thrown at them. A simple rock can kill. So deadly force was appropriate.

It's still like the Wild West over there Steve. Shoot first ask questions later. Have you not learned anything in the past. 150 years ? I'm just glad no neighbourhood watch nut-job wannabe cop is allowed to carry a weapon in this country.

[Steve Moss]

The shoot first, ask questions later mentality was nowhere present in the Zimmerman case. People don't want to acknowledge that the physical altercation was audio-taped (via the 911 call) and a large segment of the altercation was witnessed (toward the end).

The witness corroborated Zimmerman's version of evidence. Martin was on top, physically striking Zimmerman about the head against a concrete sidewalk BEFORE Zimmerman pulled the trigger. The 911 tape records a 45 seconds of beating and screaming before the trigger was pulled. Martin's family claimed it was their son screaming for help. Zimmerman's family claims they identified the voice as Zimmerman's. Considering that the witness and the physical evidence indicate that it was Martin on top beating Zimmerman, the jurors who have spoken on the issue have stated that they believed it was Zimmerman screaming for help before he pulled the trigger.

On the issue of race, it was Martin (who placed phone call before the altercation) who described Zimmerman as a "cracker" which is a a derogatory term blacks use to describe whites. The FBI interviewed almost 40 people last year and determined that race played no part in Zimmerman following or shooting Martin.

It is also interesting that the judge excluded Martin's history of violence from the jury's consideration. Apparently there were many text messages and emails where he described fighting, his enjoyment of fighting and his desire to get people who he felt were not showing him proper respect. Over the defense's objection, the judge ruled the jury couldn't hear that evidence as it had nothing to do with whether Zimmerman was justified in pulling the trigger. Despite not hearing about this self-stated propensity for settling matters with his fists, the jury still found that Martin was the aggressor and that Zimmerman was justified in believing that he was at risk for great bodily injury which is why they acquitted him.

Think what you will about Florida and American gun laws. However, Zimmerman was reasonably at risk of death or great bodily injury. He used his gun to eliminate that risk. He would have been equally justified to use a rock, screwdriver or beer bottle.

[Audax]

I wish the cycle of violence to end and for Zimmerman and his family to be safe, that said, I don't think he is a stable person and though he passed the background check for having a carry and concealed gun, let's not forget this.

http://rollingout.com/culture/george-zimmerman-son-of-a-retired-judge-has-3-closed-arrests/

He had been brought up on charges of domestic violence, he also was brought up on charges of shoving a police officer, a felony, that was reduced upon his entering an alcohol rehab program and the charge was eventually dismissed. His father was a low-level judge. Would it be possible for the father to arrange a sweet-heart deal?? People do get deals all the time. Even if the "Fix" was not in, this is pretty bad stuff, yes, say it, he was not convicted but I think it indicates he should not have been allowed to carry a gun, lo and behold, all this stuff happens, he had a gun and what happened? Someone was killed. A teenager.

Regardless of "political views", views on gun control, I'm not political in this. He may be a somewhat nice guy usually, but looks a bit unsteady.

A motion for a restraining order as well against Zimmerman was filed. Not sure if the restraining order came through.

CR-RESISTING OFFICER WITH VIOLENCE

BATTERY ON LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER

2005-MM-010436-A-O

ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE MICHAEL

...

ZUAZO, VERONICA vs. ZIMMERMAN, GEORGE M

08/09/2005

Div 44

44, TBA

Domestic Violence

You can say he passed the background check, he had the right to have the gun.

Well, guess what? The Boston Bombers were known about too before they caused that havoc at the Boston Marathon. Do we have to see people get killed first?? I'm usually not a bleeding heart but I also know, people are denied gun permits because of criminal records, because of psychological counseling from being a War Veteran in the United States.

You can say whatever you want about Trayvon Martin, let's not forget this other.

[dave birch]

Interesting comments over the last few months.

Given the dislike of guns in the UK (our coppers have them), what do you make of this (lifted from a very good article) on the BBC website:

"The UK government has approved more than 3,000 export licences for arms
sales to countries it believes have questionable human rights records,
MPs say."

Seems like it's ok to shoot up others, as long as they're not Brits?

[thenodrog]

It's still like the Wild West over there Steve. Shoot first ask questions later. Have you not learned anything in the past. 150 years ? I'm just glad no neighbourhood watch nut-job wannabe cop is allowed to carry a weapon in this country.

The counter argument to that did not take long to find..... Albeit not neighbourhood watch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19635239

[jim mk2]

Rare incident in Britain thankfully and counter-argument didn't take long to find either.

This is "normal" behaviour in the US apparently.

http://www.euronews.com/2013/05/02/child-gun-use-normal-in-kentucky-where-boy-shot-toddler-sister/

[speeeeeeedie]

Regarding the Zimmerman trial. It was, as usual in "high profile cases", turned into a farce by the US media's drive to fill 24 hours of programming every single day, and at the same time not wanting to be outdone by the competiton; so they all cover the same tripe.

For me it seems like as the law stood the jury could not convict Zimmerman for murder or manslaughter. That's the larger issue.

I do think though that he should be charged with something for playing Robocop.

Hopefully Kate Middleton will have her baby tomorrow. That will move Zimmerman off the radar.

[Mike E]

That's the issue I have tbh. If Trayvon had been killed by one crack of his head on the kerb after a punch, it'd be manslaughter (surely?) regardless of self-defence.

But nigh on guaranteeing his death with a gunshot from point blank doesn't?

Unlesd I've misunderstood the law then what the hell has gone on for an innocent verdict?

[Steve Moss]

Rare incident in Britain thankfully and counter-argument didn't take long to find either.

This is "normal" behaviour in the US apparently.

Jim- I have prevoiusly posted articles that analyzed UK reported homicide rates vs. the actual homicide rate. Surprisingly it is alleged the UK system of documenting homicides results in a vast under reporting. In other words, your government is lying to the UK public and the UK rate may actually be closer to the US rate. I haven't seen you respond as of yet.

Is there manipulation of UK data? I'd be interested in your view.

[Guest Norbert]

Governments fiddling crime stats? Who'd have thunk it???!

Anyway, hand on heart I can say that I can think of 1 murder wherever I have lived in Britain that was someone shooting another person. As for people going on a rampage and killing a few people elsewhere in the UK, I can think of 3 off the top my head in the same time period (1994-present day), Dunblane, Raoul Moat and that bloke in Cumbria. Out of interest, what is it like in your town/state Steve?

[Steve Moss]

A few months ago I had the data, but relying on memory Mohave County (pop. 210,000) has 8-10 homicides a year. 1-2 is almost always the police killing out of town bad guys. According to the Sheriff, all the homicides involve drugs and domestic disputes, usually both together.

There has been no mass murders in Mohave County that I recall. A year or three ago a scorned husband killed his wife and, when he tried to intervene, his teenage son, then killed himself, so that would account for 3. That's the largest I can remember. Several years ago a teenage boy broke into a senior citizens' home, and killed both the husband with a hammer he found in the garage and strangled the wife a few days later. He was looking for money for drugs. I remember a girlfriend running her boyfriend over with an F-150 truck, killing him, last year when he broke up with her.

About half the homicides involved firearms. The balance were knives, trucks, cars, bats, hammers. Of the firearms, all the law enforcement shootings involved semi-automatic pistols. There was only one was an "assault" weapon (an SKS) death. The civilian firearm of choice appears to be shotguns and hunting rifles, though last year a person did kill someone with a .45 Colt semi-auto (though I think the jury acquitted him on self-defense grounds).

I should point out that most of the killings in Mohave County appear to be out of towners visiting "friends" and relatives in Mohave County for drug related reasons.

[thenodrog]

I can never quite work out why when the authorities become aware of some dodgy heroin etc that they issue public warnings. No doubt there is a reason but I confess it does escape me.

[Guest Norbert]

Thanks for the info Steve. If we're talking about your county, then perhaps this would be a reasonable comparasion, as Coventry is a little bit bigger (about 300,000).

http://www.ukcrimestats.com/Subdivisions/MTD/2520/

http://ias.facts-about-coventry.com/IAS/dataviews/report/fullpage?viewId=162&reportId=149&geoId=15&geoSubsetId=213

Now, I am not sure how these are compiled, and I'm assuming violent crime ranges from murder to rape, to a serious drunken punch up but here they are. Turns out I've lived in the two worst wards!

[Tom]

One of the murderers of Lee Rigby has been assaulted in prison

I'm sure there was a queue around the block to be the one to do it!

[gumboots]

Isn't that what I said would happen earlier in this thread. prison is a brutal place full of criminals but they do have a sense of what is beyond the pale, so they might rob you or even beat you up if they think it's a fair do, but they hate paedophiles and those who prey on the weak and the elderly and obviously thugs like those who attacked Lee rigby. Despite the Sky sports and the supposed easy lifestyle in our prisons nowadays there are still plenty of places and times when you are vulnerable and if you've annoyed the wrong people you are not safe.

[thenodrog]

One of the murderers of Lee Rigby has been assaulted in prison

I'm sure there was a queue around the block to be the one to do it!

Has he survived the attack? Shame if so.

[adopted scouser]

Has he survived the attack? Shame if so.

Needs to be prolonged. I want that tw@tt looking over his shoulder for the rest of his natural. His idiot mate an 'all

[thenodrog]

I sort of know what you mean Nick but ......nah just rub the fecker out and move on.