[Archived] Hang Em High

[Proudtobeblue&white]

The question of juries is a very important one. I've been a juror and I can promise you it's very, very difficult to find someone guilty. The consequences for the individual's future weigh heavily in the mind. Ask ordinary people to give a guilty verdict which could lead to the death penalty and it will push the need for beyond reasonable doubt even further. The result would probably be less likelihood of conviction if juries knew guilty could lead to execution.

As for pedophiles what is your view on this case? The 11 year old girl was stabbed to death and her attacker ejaculated on her underwear. I'm not sure if you would classify this as pedophilia but it is certainly sexual assault of a minor.

Stefan Kiszko was shown innocent after serving 16 years. Executing him would have removed that possibility. So where is 100%, beyond reasonable doubt certainty that we can execute this particular person?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed

Paul, thank you for a very balanced view......sitting on a jury must be very difficult. The Kiszko case is a prime example, severe learning difficulties, vulnerable, incarcerated for half a lifetime, on a forced confession. The price of locking people up instead of death is a small price to pay for a civilized society.

[thenodrog]

..... Given your remark about Bentley I take it you don't have a problem with this provided the innocent person looks unlikely, in your view, to contribute meaningfully to society?

Just an occupational hazard for such vermin. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Here's another example http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/719895.stm .

[thenodrog]

As for pedophiles what is your view on this case? The 11 year old girl was stabbed to death and her attacker ejaculated on her underwear. I'm not sure if you would classify this as pedophilia but it is certainly sexual assault of a minor.

Stefan Kiszko was shown innocent after serving 16 years. Executing him would have removed that possibility. So where is 100%, beyond reasonable doubt certainty that we can execute this particular person?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Lesley_Molseed

A simple dna test would have proved his innocence. That was then, this is now.

[Proudtobeblue&white]

Gordon, I enjoy your confrontation, forthright views, but we will fall out big style, no legal system in the world is better than ours, see the complete tosser that is our current minister of justice, Chris Grayling, who actually says this true, but still wants to destroy it!

[thenodrog]

I'm tempted to say that you would say that woudn't you. Legal aid can be used to the good but it is all to frequently abused. Times are tough, savings have to be made across the board in the interests of the taxpayer. An annual legal aid bill of 2 billion pa might be described as rather excessive dont you think?

[Mike E]

Kiszko was a big part of my degree (forensic psychology). Very intriguing case. But drog aludes to what I would support re: death penalty.

NOT with any verdict that was granted on circumstantial evidence.

So I would only approve of the death penalty where DNA, weapon, cctv (all relevant evidence ofc).

Aside: I am amazed at the power of witness statements OVER cctv. I saw it in court recently where a witness statement was torn to shreds with the use of cctv and the bloke was still convicted on that particular charge. Not every jury has a Henry Fonda unfortunately :/

[Stuart]

I'm tempted to say that you would say that woudn't you. Legal aid can be used to the good but it is all to frequently abused. Times are tough, savings have to be made across the board in the interests of the taxpayer. An annual legal aid bill of 2 billion pa might be described as rather excessive dont you think?

Why I can't help but think about Christmas turkey ballots?

[jim mk2]

Why I can't help but think about Christmas turkey ballots?

What a 'nothing' response.

[Stuart]

What a 'nothing' response.

Bet you've been waiting all day to do that.

Goodnight Grandpa.

[Paul]

Here is one for Mike Ellison and thenodrog. It took a 15 second Google to find this case from 2012. There are plenty of other examples though the bulk are proving innocence of older crimes thanks to improved DNA techniques.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19782917

I still can't find anyone prepared to give a straight answer to the question:

"Are you prepared to execute innocent people to punish the guilty?"

It's not difficult and must surely have been considered by anyone who supports the death penalty?

[adopted scouser]

Bet you've been waiting all day to do that.

Goodnight Grandpa.

[Stuart]

"Are you prepared to execute innocent people to punish the guilty?"

If you aren't sure that they are guilty, why are you locking them up?

[DE.]

If you aren't sure that they are guilty, why are you locking them up?

Do you not think there's a difference between incarceration and death? One has the potential for a mistake to be partially corrected, the other doesn't.

I still can't find anyone prepared to give a straight answer to the question:

"Are you prepared to execute innocent people to punish the guilty?"

It's not difficult and must surely have been considered by anyone who supports the death penalty?

The reason you won't get a straight response is because people know they can't explain a 'yes' answer without compromising the other principles of justice they claim to hold.

[Mike E]

Here is one for Mike Ellison and thenodrog. It took a 15 second Google to find this case from 2012. There are plenty of other examples though the bulk are proving innocence of older crimes thanks to improved DNA techniques.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19782917

I still can't find anyone prepared to give a straight answer to the question:

"Are you prepared to execute innocent people to punish the guilty?"

It's not difficult and must surely have been considered by anyone who supports the death penalty?

I wouldn't be prepared to execute innocent people. They wouldn't even have a chance of execution.

I'm on about executing the likes of Cregan and Huntley. The ones that are nailed on guilty. If there's the slightest chance of innocence, then death wouldn't be an option to the court until absolutely proven.

As for the link, it's interesting and certainly food for thought. I'd look at executing the dodgy technician

[DE.]

I wouldn't be prepared to execute innocent people. They wouldn't even have a chance of execution.

I'm on about executing the likes of Cregan and Huntley. The ones that are nailed on guilty. If there's the slightest chance of innocence, then death wouldn't be an option to the court until absolutely proven.

As for the link, it's interesting and certainly food for thought. I'd look at executing the dodgy technician

I think what you're failing to realise is that this criteria won't be limited to paedophiles, murderers, etc.

Let's say the state label you a terrorist, fabricate "unquestionable" evidence and use the media to paint you as the epitome of evil. Do you think many people are going to give a damn if you're executed, even if you are innocent?

Considering the amount of liberties already being withdrawn from us, and the amount of times the Government have proven themselves to be untrustworthy scumbags, I find it reprehensible that anybody would want to hand them legal recorse to take the lives of its citizens. I don't trust this mob with my money so why in the world would I trust them with my life?

If you trust Cameron, Osbourne, Boris and the rest of the upper class elite to wield the scythe fairly over your life then so be it... I don't.

[Mike E]

Which is why I said I supported it with the conditions I set out

In practice, no I don't support it. But I just wish it could be used properly. Because there are definitely people on this Earth who need their heads lopping off.

[Stuart]

Do you not think there's a difference between incarceration and death? One has the potential for a mistake to be partially corrected, the other doesn't.

Irrelevant. If we aren't sure that the right person has committed the crime then they should not be locked up in the first place.

[Majiball]

Do you not think there's a difference between incarceration and death? One has the potential for a mistake to be partially corrected, the other doesn't.

The distinction is obvious death is real, incarnation is folly.

If guilty they can go on death row for 10 years, that's ample time for anything to exonerate them to come out. Once the 10 years are up and they return the plasma TV and PS4, then they go. The punishment is no longer punishment it's like a holiday home, the deterrent isn't enough and whilst the death penalty may not be the way forward something must change.

[jim mk2]

Irrelevant. If we aren't sure that the right person has committed the crime then they should not be locked up in the first place.

Good afternoon Grandson.

I must say that is a poor response. Even at your tender age you must be able to understand that courts make mistakes and that the option of the death penalty could be somewhat terminal ?

[broadsword]

You can't punish someone for killing a person ... by killing them.

Then you're no better than they are.

[thenodrog]

You can't punish someone for killing a person ... by killing them.

Then you're no better than they are.

Might be an idea to let the three closest relatives of the victim decide.

[DE.]

Might be an idea to let the three closest relatives of the victim decide.

Yeah, most decisions should be undertaken under extreme emotional stress. I think it's generally accepted that the best time to make a decision is when you're apoplectic with rage.

[ABBEY]

Just hang the dirty @#/? by his @#/? in the main prison wing and the women to.

[jim mk2]

Might be an idea to let the three closest relatives of the victim decide.

Great idea. Saves on lawyers fees too. Meanwhile in the real world .....

[Stuart]

Good afternoon Grandson.

I must say that is a poor response. Even at your tender age you must be able to understand that courts make mistakes and that the option of the death penalty could be somewhat terminal ?

Ah, so we really aren't all that sure after all. But lock em up anyway, just in case.

Forget the punishment, the argument really has come down to guilt or innocence.