Rovers Versus Tottenham

[roversmum]

Mr Roversmum religiously counted the 'fouls' and made them 25 Rovers to 8 Spurs. Disgraceful refereeing. Still, nothing will ever be done about it, things will probably get worse.

[Neil Weaver]

One of the most bizarre reffing performances of the season, and I seem to end up thinking that each successive game! Official site says 20 fouls by us, 4 by Spurs. Yet neither side was 'physical', and much of a muchness in terms of poor challenges etc. A 60/40 balance on the foul count I could have understood, but 5:1?

Vogel - thought he was ordinary, but considering the background could be a good un. During the game, thought he was on medium wave whilst the rest of the team were on long wave. Give him a few games to get tuned in to how we play and teammates' runs and I'm pretty optimistic. Since the game I've wondered if the reason he was played (and I think will start most games for the rest of the season) is so MH gets to see how he performs in game conditions and based on that, whether it's worth offering the veteran Turk another year.

Was glad to see Bert come on for the second half, and thought we changed shape (anyone else notice?) with Reid being given free rein to make attacking runs, the first time I've noticed that this season. OK, he might not have been as good at that as a couple of years ago, but actually thought we looked much better overall. Also noticed in last few games MGP is playing further infield - it's paid off with a couple of goals but at the expense of losing left wing crossing (which Jan etc. will look on as a positive with his alleged crossing quality).

On the MOTM front, Bentley good (again, if greedy), the Admiral looked decent again, and thought Warnock looked very solid.

[JAL]

Fantasy? As in things that actually happened and are true you mean?

Yesteryear? Because having just turned 31, he's past it as a defensive midfielder? Many would argue (ie people with a working knowledge of football) that in general, 31 is still an age where you'd expect a defensive midfielder to be at his peak, especially one of Vogel's nature. Sure having 10 months off means he'll be a bit rusty but that's something that ought to improve with time.

Footballers peak between the ages of 24-28, ok they might keep themselves fitter nowadays and can continue to play depending on their body and career injuries until going on into their late thirties but their peak is around the ages i suggest, your comment of hes just turned 31 is ridiculous, his body isnt going to respond to well as it might have done 3-4 years ago unless he some sort of bionic man.

Question, are you another one who posts on here saying that Dunny will come good given time ?

Yesteryear was about you quoting Vogels previous experience and career, something which has no relevance whatsoever to me, as its about now and the future not what has happened in the past -thats gone, the future success for Rovers is all i'm interested in. Bottom line is Vogel just didnt inspire me and give me the confidence for the future thats why i'm critical.

[Ozz]

Jal, Dunn has been our best central midfielder this season. Better than Toogs, Reid, Mokoena, Vogel, all of them. Better at going forward, most likely to create a chance, best at chasing back, full of running, full of optimistic passing etc. Only Bentley has been more consistant in the whole of our outfield playing squad.

Sorry to get involved but it's true I'm afraid.

[tony gale's mic]

Footballers peak between the ages of 24-28, ok they might keep themselves fitter nowadays and can continue to play depending on their body and career injuries until going on into their late thirties but their peak is around the ages i suggest, your comment of hes just turned 31 is ridiculous, his body isnt going to respond to well as it might have done 3-4 years ago unless he some sort of bionic man.

Question, are you another one who posts on here saying that Dunny will come good given time ?

Yesteryear was about you quoting Vogels previous experience and career, something which has no relevance whatsoever to me, as its about now and the future not what has happened in the past -thats gone, the future success for Rovers is all i'm interested in. Bottom line is Vogel just didnt inspire me and give me the confidence for the future thats why i'm critical.

Christ your posts are getting more and more ludicrous. Tugay joined us at the age of 31, but what a bad signing he's turned out to be. Clearly he was past his peak when he signed for us. Friedel signed at the age of 30 odd, again he was past his peak. And what were Milan doing picking Maldini for quite so long?! They should have shipped him off to a Serie B team back when he was 30.

Strikers these days peak between 24 and 28 this is probably true (although I'd say anything upto 30 depending on the player) as the modern game needs them to be pacey. Even then you can look at strikers such as Teddy Sheringham who didn't need much pace and were starring at the top level well into their thirties (however most strikers do need pace these days). However the further back the field you go the longer they can be at their peak for. Most of the top clubs in Europe have defenders over the age of 30 who play regularly for them as what some of them lose in pace they gain in experience.

In midfield some players last longer than others, but again defensive midfielders generally last longer than the attacking midfielders or the box-to-box midfielders as they don't need to have quite so much 'legs' on them and their game relies more on tackling and having a good range of passing. Chelsea signed Makalele when he was 30 and there's countless other examples of top defensive midfielders in leading sides who have performed regularly at the top level (Champions League etc) upto around 33 or so.

You can't compare Dunn with Vogel. Dunn had a string of injuries, didn't look after himself brilliantly at times and never really competed at the top level. None of these three applies to Vogel and the only reason he hasn't played in 10 months is because of his dispute with Betis.

And it baffles me as to why Vogel's previous experience and achievements should mean nothing to you. What if we signed some foreign player called Kaka, great CV but on his debut didn't really stand out? Would 'yesteryear' not mean anything then?! Vogel wasn't bad on his debut, certainly no worse than the average level of the rest of the team who had been playing week in week out in familar surroundings.

You can be critical all you like but when your reasoning is this ridiculous you can't expect others not to comment.

[grizfoot]

Thought it was a mistake to start with Ooijer at RB consideirng the pace Tottenham have in their attack. We looked a lot more balanced in the second half when Bert came on, fairly play to Hughes for realising it and changing it at half time. A brilliant move for our goal, Pedersen turned up in the right place to tuck it home, can't stop scoring this lad now!

Second half was a fasinating half both teams looked dangerous until they got to the edge of the box were attack after attack seemed to break down. Brad did have to pull off a couple of decent saves though. Overall a point each way was probably about fair. Feel a little aggrieved after the shocking referee decisions, not only did he deny us a clear penalty in my eyes he also constantly missed fouls against our front two. Santa Cruz & Roberts were being pushed and pulled nearly all afternoon when the ball came towards them in the air.

[thenodrog]

Is this the same match?

http://football.guardian.co.uk/Observer_Ma...2271366,00.html

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/foo...icle3689866.ece

The Observer report by Jason Mellor is about as biased as it gets. We are the home team yet are not mentioned at all until two thirds through the report! We only got a point cos Chimbonda Reid's 'lobbed' pass! What a nob! That was the best pass that I saw on the entire MoTD programme.

[John]

Thought it was a mistake to start with Ooijer at RB consideirng the pace Tottenham have in their attack. We looked a lot more balanced in the second half when Bert came on, fairly play to Hughes for realising it and changing it at half time. A brilliant move for our goal, Pedersen turned up in the right place to tuck it home, can't stop scoring this lad now!

For me, Hughes has made team selection/tactical mistakes similar to this too often this season. Granted, Emerton may not have been fit to start the match though.

[Dunnfc]

Can't believe Bentley has got 24 votes, i thought he was pretty much below par.

[JAL]

Christ your posts are getting more and more ludicrous. Tugay joined us at the age of 31, but what a bad signing he's turned out to be. Clearly he was past his peak when he signed for us. Friedel signed at the age of 30 odd, again he was past his peak. And what were Milan doing picking Maldini for quite so long?! They should have shipped him off to a Serie B team back when he was 30.

Strikers these days peak between 24 and 28 this is probably true (although I'd say anything upto 30 depending on the player) as the modern game needs them to be pacey. Even then you can look at strikers such as Teddy Sheringham who didn't need much pace and were starring at the top level well into their thirties (however most strikers do need pace these days). However the further back the field you go the longer they can be at their peak for. Most of the top clubs in Europe have defenders over the age of 30 who play regularly for them as what some of them lose in pace they gain in experience.

In midfield some players last longer than others, but again defensive midfielders generally last longer than the attacking midfielders or the box-to-box midfielders as they don't need to have quite so much 'legs' on them and their game relies more on tackling and having a good range of passing. Chelsea signed Makalele when he was 30 and there's countless other examples of top defensive midfielders in leading sides who have performed regularly at the top level (Champions League etc) upto around 33 or so.

You can't compare Dunn with Vogel. Dunn had a string of injuries, didn't look after himself brilliantly at times and never really competed at the top level. None of these three applies to Vogel and the only reason he hasn't played in 10 months is because of his dispute with Betis.

And it baffles me as to why Vogel's previous experience and achievements should mean nothing to you. What if we signed some foreign player called Kaka, great CV but on his debut didn't really stand out? Would 'yesteryear' not mean anything then?! Vogel wasn't bad on his debut, certainly no worse than the average level of the rest of the team who had been playing week in week out in familar surroundings.

You can be critical all you like but when your reasoning is this ridiculous you can't expect others not to comment.

Tugay had skill, Tugay excited me when he was on the ball, Tugay was/is a master of the ball, Tugay was crowd pleaser comparing Tugay with Vogel especially at the 31 year old stage i cant see one thing were Vogel comes anywher near close enough to the Turk based on saturdays performance.

I was asking if you were one of the Dunny camp whom i've had been having a spat with over the past twelve months not comparing him to Vogel.

Yesteryear is wonderful thing if you've shared an experience with someone, but Kaka ive seen admired and the world knows hes a wonderfull player but how many knew of Vogel, i know i hadnt until he arrived on our doorstep a couple of months ago.

What i saw on saturday didnt inspire me regardless of him not playing for so long and its not just me there are many other Rovers fans who feel the same but they'll give him more time which maybe i accept i'm impatient, maybe i've jumped the gun, been too critical too soon, but when your looking forward to something and it doesnt quite match up with your expectations then i couldnt bottle things up and say everything is alright when clearly i felt it wasnt.

[The Harwood Yankee]

Jal, Dunn has been our best central midfielder this season. Better than Toogs, Reid, Mokoena, Vogel, all of them. Better at going forward, most likely to create a chance, best at chasing back, full of running, full of optimistic passing etc. Only Bentley has been more consistant in the whole of our outfield playing squad.

Sorry to get involved but it's true I'm afraid.

I agree 100%. I think Dunn was a good signing. He's not about to knock on the England door like he did in his pre-arguing with Souness/playboy/showboating/pie-eating days, but he's the pick of our current central midfielders. The problem against Spurs was that we didnt seem to have any forward-moving impetus from midfield at all. Reid was quite poor, passing back and hardly ever surging forward which used to be his forte. I know it was only Vogel's first start for us and I'm reluctant to write someone off without a chance but he looked every inch a freebie. He's a small player who looked wimpish in the challenge. Made me think how we could have done with Savage back to get stuck in and break things up in the middle when no tackles were going in.

A decent central midfielder and left wing are now essentials in the close season. If Spurs wanted some sort of swap deal between Pedersen & Huddlestone I'd be delighted. Maybe seeing him score against them will fool them into thinking he's still the player he used to be.

[roversmum]

With that referee I'd have given Sav about 10 minutes before he got sent off............

[RoyRover]

I was disappointed with this result. Doing the double over Spurs would have sent a message to different people that we are on a par with them and they are not much better than the rest of the teams chasing 4th spot. I've only seen the goals, but by all accounts we were poor in the first half and Spurs should have been more than one goal up. I'm sorry to hear that Steven Reid didn't play well, he has been a shadow of his former self since coming back. This result also ended any hope of us qualifying automatically for Europe. We'll just have to go through the Intertoto Cup.

[modes98]

I'm sorry to hear that Steven Reid didn't play well, he has been a shadow of his former self since coming back. This result also ended any hope of us qualifying automatically for Europe. We'll just have to go through the Intertoto Cup.

Far from it, Steven Reid has been pretty good since his return. Alas the last 2 games seem to have a bridge to far and his passing has been nothing short of awful.

We have been intertoto chasing for a while now. There is no way we could catch everton.

[thenodrog]

Far from it, Steven Reid has been pretty good since his return. Alas the last 2 games seem to have a bridge to far and his passing has been nothing short of awful.

We have been intertoto chasing for a while now. There is no way we could catch everton.

One swallow does not make a summer of course, but he made the pass of the day to Bentley imo.

I think (like Benny) that Reid is being asked to perform out of his normal role in a position that is unfamiliar to him and one which he is struggling to adapt to. Rem before he was injured Tugay was doing the defensive midfield role leaving him to go on forward raids down the right. Currently he's been expected to replace Tugay (and curb his forward runs) that cannot be an easy task.

[joey_big_nose]

Tugay had skill, Tugay excited me when he was on the ball, Tugay was/is a master of the ball, Tugay was crowd pleaser comparing Tugay with Vogel especially at the 31 year old stage i cant see one thing were Vogel comes anywher near close enough to the Turk based on saturdays performance.

I was asking if you were one of the Dunny camp whom i've had been having a spat with over the past twelve months not comparing him to Vogel.

Yesteryear is wonderful thing if you've shared an experience with someone, but Kaka ive seen admired and the world knows hes a wonderfull player but how many knew of Vogel, i know i hadnt until he arrived on our doorstep a couple of months ago.

What i saw on saturday didnt inspire me regardless of him not playing for so long and its not just me there are many other Rovers fans who feel the same but they'll give him more time which maybe i accept i'm impatient, maybe i've jumped the gun, been too critical too soon, but when your looking forward to something and it doesnt quite match up with your expectations then i couldnt bottle things up and say everything is alright when clearly i felt it wasnt.

To be honest it sounds like you have wildly unrealistic expectations.

Much as we would all love it we are not going to sign Kaka. Indeed not even in our heyday 13 years ago did we sign players at the top of the European game. The closest we ever came to that is probably when we got Sutton off Norwich who was clearly very highly rated, or, of course, Shearer. Most of Uncle Jack's other signings were not from "big clubs". We haven't ever been able to prise first team players off the likes of Spurs or Villa, let alone AC Milan. When Tugay came people did not think he was a brilliant player. He came from the Rangers reserves. This is the market we are moving in still.

The Premiership is a competitive league and we need to strengthen. But be realistic in your hopes. And for god's sakes give Vogel a chance.

Can you please write down a list of players who would satisfy you as being both talented and established enough. And then consider how much they would cost. Even if we had 20 million in the bank we would still be looking at players who are either not established, old, or have just been relegated. This is how the transfer market works for all but the most ludicrously rich of clubs.

[joey_big_nose]

One swallow does not make a summer of course, but he made the pass of the day to Bentley imo.

I think (like Benny) that Reid is being asked to perform out of his normal role in a position that is unfamiliar to him and one which he is struggling to adapt to. Rem before he was injured Tugay was doing the defensive midfield role leaving him to go on forward raids down the right. Currently he's been expected to replace Tugay (and curb his forward runs) that cannot be an easy task.

Fantastic pass it was too.

Quite a few of our previously top performers have looked shaky recently- Warnock, Samba, Reid and Cruz have all looked poor at stages which has really hurt the team. What was encouraging about this game was as it wore on everything settled down a bit. By the end Samba in particular looked his solid self again and Warnock had a very good second half. Cruz had a decent if quiet game.

Reid is a player whose strenths lie in his running throught the middle. There are not many players who can do this effectively- Gerrard, Lampard, Jenas on a good day - but it does mean he needs someone to hold the midfield together. Vogel looks a stable player, I would not be suprised if he actually becomes the regular starter and Dunn and Reid rotate. Both of them need to be in the final third to be effective in my opinion. If they stop running and sit back it detracts a lot of their game.

One thing for certain is that Vogel is the type of player we desperately need. The only question remains if he can cut it in the Premiership. I would say he was decent on Saturday if unspectacular. Plus as his role is not too dependent on running and running he could have a few years in him.

Incidently we looked much better when Emerton came on. We had better shape and were far more effective on the counter attack.

[waggy]

thought the draw was the right result,as for spurs goal i thought if the player was behind the player who crosses the ball he is onside nowadays,saying that the offside rule is down to the officials these days.on vogel he was ok,been missing for months so what do we expect,i also say if you pay nowt for players this type of display is to be expected.roberts has been in the team for 4 or 5 games,done ok now i say give derbyshire a go.derbs has a double hernia which the rovers staff in there wisdom deem to think the summer is the right time to treat him,so give him a run in the team he deserves it.as for samba i could weep,ok after we conceded the goal he played ok but till then he was useless.i agree ojjer was poor but he should have been centre back with nelsen and emerton at rb.if i was zurab i would be asking for a move,clearly hughes has favourites

[rover6]

That's something I hadn't noticed. Zurab goes from starting to not even on the bench. Very harsh on the Georgian.

Just a point on Spurs - their problem, imo, stems from the fact they have too many self-absorbed players, who whilst highly talented, seem to have a arrogant approach to their team-mates. Players such as Robbie Keane, Berbatov, Chimbonda, Jenas all seem to think that they are God's gift to humanity (let alone football). When things aren't happening, of course, they are not to blame.

[RevidgeBlue]

as for samba i could weep,ok after we conceded the goal he played ok but till then he was useless.

Errr.......... we conceded a goal inside the opening five minutes or so?

[Ronin]

Would seem that AC Milan are interested in Samba, but its a week since April Fools though.

http://www.tribalfootball.com/article.php?id=86750

[waggy]

Errr.......... we conceded a goal inside the opening five minutes or so?

bloody hell i thought it was about 20 mins in,still say he did ok in the 2nd half,liked the look of hutton

[gazsimm]

first 20 minutes Spurs were the best side, then we decided to wake up again and should of took all three points if the ref had a better eye sight.

Vogel struggled early on which he always was going to be considering he has not played for so long. As the game went on he came into the game more and more.

I think with another couple of games under his belt, we will see that he is a class player. I think Hughes has got another bargain with Vogel, in the second half he was one of our best players. I would like Hughes to start with Vogel and Dunn at Liverpool i think the both of them will be a great CM partnership for Rovers with Reid used as a back up

[Hasta]

We should analyse Vogel one step at a time. It was his first game for ages, his first taste of Premier League opposition. Although I'd say he was a fair way from looking good he still showed far more on the ball than the axe.

[LDRover]

So why can you be bothered to even post about it, let alone read about it? I know you had other things on your mind yesterday with a semi to keep you pre-occupied.

To be honest, I'd find it difficult to concentrate on the Rovers if I had a semi on my mind.