[Archived] The European Chase

[gumboots]

Ah - That one got me earlier. I think the point is that if Everton finish 6th, they would possibly get the Fair Play UEFA spot, thus nudging the league's intertoto spot to us.

I think.

could we now have reason to be grateful that Arteta didn't get sent off for raising his hand to Pedersen?

[LeftWinger]

could we now have reason to be grateful that Arteta didn't get sent off for raising his hand to Pedersen?

Ha Ha - that would be fantastic if that decision put us into Europe.

[rovgers]

would I be right in saying that if we win on sunday we could be in europe, as long as either Everton or Villa (or both) get beat?

Just a pity we'll have to rely on the geordies and wham to win!!

[b12_simon]

would I be right in saying that if we win on sunday we could be in europe, as long as either Everton or Villa (or both) get beat?

Just a pity we'll have to rely on the geordies and wham to win!!

I we win and Villa fail to win, that's an Intertoto spot. All other chances of qualification depend on who gets the Fair Play spot (i.e. definitely not us!)

[LeftWinger]

I'd rather be playing Birmingham than West Ham away - even though Birmingham need to win.

1) We're rubbish at West Ham - and they'll want to win in front of their home fans

2) Birmingham are inept - no shots on target against Fulham in their last "must win" game

If we win - I think we'll get the Intertoto spot.

[Ronin]

That thought simply has ruined my afternoon siesta

But then, if we were to miss out and those teams were to have a bad league run due to being more focused on the UEFA Cup, we could sneak up and snag the UEFA place next season

[brian_gallagher85]

It could be:

1. United CHAMIONS LEAGUE

2. Chelsea CHAMPIONS LEAGUE

3. Arsenal CHAMPIONS LEAGUE

4. Liverpool CHAMPIONS LEAGUE

5. Everton UEFA CUP

6. Aston Villa INTERTOTO CUP

7. Rovers

8. Portsmouth UEFA CUP (Through FA Cup)

9. Man City UEFA CUP (Through Fair Play)

10. Tottenham UEFA CUP (Through League Cup)

That'd be pretty hard to take - everyone else in the top 10 getting European football.

I actually think we'll pip Villa for 6th though.

How sickening would this be for either side

On the subject of our possible opponents in the Intertoby, as tempting as a short drive up the road sounds, after the weekend I've had I want another trip abroad

[rog of the rovers]

Utter rubbish, just looking at the fair play league.

If Newcastle avoid getting anyone booked, and City get one player booked then it would be the Geordies in Europe next season!

What a joke

[Bobby G]

Everton are behind Man City and then comes Fulham, West Ham, Wigan, Villa and Reading all before Newcastle. Its not just about bookings. There is a formula at hand.

In essence with England guaranteed a place, it means the following for us:

1) We win and Villa dont win and we are in Europe.

2) Villa win, Everton lose, but they get a booking less than Man City and we should still make it to the Intertoto.

[philipl]

Only I have just seen Grooby suggest on the official site that being in the Intertoto counts as being in Europe already!

In which case the if Fair Play Table placings between Everton and City don't change, and Everton lose and Villa win, City still get the UEFA Fair Play slot.

That makes it ridiculous if true as Everton are in effect penalised for their higher league placement getting the "priviledge" of two Intertoto games for their achievement.

If that is not the case, BOTH City and Everton are massively incentivised not to make a tackle tomorrow and no doubt the officials of both clubs will be being extra respectful to their opponents and attentive to the ref, linesmen and fourth official.

Also, if Grooby is wrong in his interpretation and news gets to Goodison of a couple of City bookings at Boro and Everton are losing, Moyes is going to tell his troops to go easy on getting back into the game.

Having the separate Fair Play table really is an absolute joke.

[Lee]

Grooby here! Philipl do you not think we discuss all the permutations in the office? Once UEFA announced that England had indeed overtaken Norway and won the automatic Fair play position, the rules were checked and as you saw on the official messageboard I posted accordingly.

The Fair Play UEFA Cup place goes to the highest ranked team NOT already in Europe next season, so that rules out Tottenham who are top as they are in the via their Carling Cup win, Manchester United, Liverpool and Arsenal because they are already in via Champions League qualification.

So the next team in the current fair play rankings is Manchester City. Everton are guaranteed Europe either via the UEFA Cup or Intertoto Cup so don't come into the equation.

Interestingly Fulham aren't too far behind, so a disastrous day in terms of bookings and sendings off for Manchester City and there could be the possibility that Fulham could sneak in.

The Fair Play winner enters the UEFA Cup at the 1st round qualifying stage.

The Intertoto team from England enters at Intertoto Cup round 3

If both teams get through then both are in UEFA Cup 2nd round qualifying stage - the stage in which we played MyPa-47 last season.

[philipl]

Thanks- I didn't appreciate that the Fair Play boys got in at the UEFA qualifying stage so that is the equivalent of an Intertoto place although the opposition will have finished higher in their league than the Intertoto opposition.

So if Everton end up in an Intertoto position, Rovers DON'T benefit whilst Everton get slightly tougher opposition than they would have done had they finished lower in the real league table.

Whichever way, England loses a European place when the Intertoto competition disappears next season.

[FourLaneBlue]

Thanks- I didn't appreciate that the Fair Play boys got in at the UEFA qualifying stage so that is the equivalent of an Intertoto place although the opposition will have finished higher in their league than the Intertoto opposition.

No it isn´t. The Intertoto qualifiers play two games before reaching the Uefa qualifyiing stage so Everton or Villa or us will have to play two games before reaching the same stage as Man City should they qualify through the Fair Play League even though they will finish below.

[philipl]

No it isn´t. The Intertoto qualifiers play two games before reaching the Uefa qualifyiing stage so Everton or Villa or us will have to play two games before reaching the same stage as Man City should they qualify through the Fair Play League even though they will finish below.

Does Fair Play feed into the First Round in which case you are right or first qualifying round as Lee wrote in which case they do get extra games?

[OJRovers]

Does anyone know how the "B/O - behaviour of officials" is determined for each match?

Looks like we are by far the worst offenders - but what is it? Surely not Hughes etc on the touchline?

[roversmum]

It took me a while to work that out, 'Officials' to me being the Refs! In which case they should be giving us top marks or whatever. Can't see that our Manager's behaviour has been any worse than others *cough* Sir Alex Ferguson *cough* for one example though.

This 'Fair Play' thing is anything but fair if you ask me

[Iceman]

Thats spot on Lee.although im not a fan of this fair play route into europe.derby for instance could have been the best behaved team,and qualified.it surely is a joke to me.i reckon that,if we dont qualify for europe,then we only have ourselves to blame.the loss to wigan and westham i think springs to mind,as 2 games if we had won,mite have been in 5th place.

[FourLaneBlue]

Does Fair Play feed into the First Round in which case you are right or first qualifying round as Lee wrote in which case they do get extra games?

Your mistake was that you said it was "the equivalent of an Intertoto place" which it is not. They play two more games - as Lee said - because they go into the qualifying round than a team qualifying from the league. However the team that goes into the intertoto Cup has to play two games just reach the same stage as the team that gets the Fair Play spot meaning that it is not ¨the equivalent of an Intertoto place".

So in other words...the team that gets the Intertoto place will have to play 6 games to get to the Uefa group stage, the team with the Fair Play spot 4 games and the team qualifying for an actial Uefa Cup place (as Spurs already have for example) play 2 games.

[Derby Blue]

Your mistake was that you said it was "the equivalent of an Intertoto place" which it is not. They play two more games - as Lee said - because they go into the qualifying round than a team qualifying from the league. However the team that goes into the intertoto Cup has to play two games just reach the same stage as the team that gets the Fair Play spot meaning that it is not ¨the equivalent of an Intertoto place".

So in other words...the team that gets the Intertoto place will have to play 6 games to get to the Uefa group stage, the team with the Fair Play spot 4 games and the team qualifying for an actial Uefa Cup place (as Spurs already have for example) play 2 games.

The intertoto winners play in the 2nd qualifying round of the UEFA cup and the Fair play winners go into the 1st qualifying round. Therefore both teams will have a 2 legged game to get to the 2nd qual round. Thats how I interpret it anyway.

[philipl]

But I think the UEFA Cup goes

Qualifying Round (s)

First Round (where the INtertoto winners come in)

Group stages

So if Fair Play goes into the First Qualifying Round they play at least as many games as the Intertoto boys. Where is that Dutch guy's web site which gives the definitive answer?!?

[Florida Rover]

Is this the one Philip?

[Derby Blue]

But I think the UEFA Cup goes

Qualifying Round (s)

First Round (where the INtertoto winners come in)

Group stages

So if Fair Play goes into the First Qualifying Round they play at least as many games as the Intertoto boys. Where is that Dutch guy's web site which gives the definitive answer?!?

But didn't we enter the 2nd qualifying round last year? Then lost to Larissa in the first round before the group stages.

[tony gale's mic]

Thats spot on Lee.although im not a fan of this fair play route into europe.derby for instance could have been the best behaved team,and qualified.it surely is a joke to me.i reckon that,if we dont qualify for europe,then we only have ourselves to blame.the loss to wigan and westham i think springs to mind,as 2 games if we had won,mite have been in 5th place.

Every team makes cockups over the season though. Look at Villa last weekend.

I think even if we finish 7th it will be a fair reflection of how good we actually are, in my eyes Everton just have that bit more quality, maybe even Villa too.

[philipl]

Is this the one Philip?

Thanks perfect and here is the answer:

Keys:

CLx = Champions League spot,

CW = cup-winner spot,

UCx = UEFA Cup spot,

LC = losing cup finalist spot

IT = Intertoto spot (in UC-QR2)

ITp = Intertoto participant

FP = Fair Play spot (in UC-QR1)

QR = Qualifying Round

So first round is called QR2 and it means whoever gets UEFA Fair Play and Intertoto from the EPL play the same number of games as each other

[FourLaneBlue]

So first round is called QR2 and it means whoever gets UEFA Fair Play and Intertoto from the EPL play the same number of games as each other

Actually you were right and I was wrong. Both the side that gets the Intertoto spot (2 games in the Intertoto and 4 in the Uefa) and the side that gets the Fair play spot (6 games in the Uefa) will have to play the same number of games - six - to get into the group stages.