[Archived] Rovers Takeover Thread

[Majiball]

I fully accept that the Trust have put money in since Jack's death - which is what I said. However, whether they like it or not the The Trust are the owners of the club at the moment. It has been clear over the past eighteen months that we have been desperately short of quality in midfield. The point I was trying to make was that from a purely business point of view it would surely have been better to have invested a few million in January to try to protect the Premier League revenues for next season. I would have thought they could then have recouped that money from next season's TV money if they so wished.

Of course, if may well be their business plan is to allow the club to find it's own level and become self sufficient. Clearly, without financial aid the Premier League is not our level and I suspect that we could easily follow the same path as Charlton Athletic.

My other point, which I still believe to be valid, was that if you can't sell the club while we have Premier League status who is going to invest if we drop into the Championship. We have seen clubs throw huge amounts of money at trying to get out of that division and fail. I wouldn't have thought the prospect of owning a middling Championship club would appeal to too many people.

It was always Jacks instruction that Rovers become self-sufficent and rightly so. That was always the case. Yes the trust could have stepped in and said here's 10M go spend it, but the trust is for all Jack's interests and if I remember rightly they made a small profit last year of about 15M (could be flybe), 6M of that came to us. Trouble is what did we do with it???

If I was a business man and removing my Rovers hat, I would be absolutly furious with the club. That money could have been used to buy the player we both know we need, instead it got spent on compensation. Now would that inspire you to invest more money into the club. Without my Rovers hat no, because I am not just responsible for Rovers but all the other businesses and I've already given you 40% of the profits. What happens if I give it all to you and see no return and then one of the other businesses needs cash? I just turned profit into deficet and would be considered negligent.

Also we would do well to remember that they had stopped all funding prior to Ince's arrival, and then they said they would put in £6M this season to help the club out with signings or whatever they felt they needed.

I completely understand your view that we could do with extra funds, but we where given them and we screwed it up, they have more than just rovers to worry about and in the current climate, too business men it would seem like throwing good money after bad. Also we had the chance to raise 17M which could easily have bought the players we needed, however thats hindsight.

Also we where doing very well during Jan and looked likely to get a little further up the league, however football is a funny game and now we are going back the wrong way down the table. Its only in the last few games with so many injuries and such that we have struggled no-one could have accountted for the current injury crisis. Prior to the close of the window I would have bet my house on us staying up easily, but time and situations change.

You cannot point the finger at any-one individual it is a collective responsibility, including all who have been involved this season and for the last few.

[den]

It was always Jacks instruction that Rovers become self-sufficent and rightly so. That was always the case. Yes the trust could have stepped in and said here's 10M go spend it, but the trust is for all Jack's interests and if I remember rightly they made a small profit last year of about 15M (could be flybe), 6M of that came to us. Trouble is what did we do with it???

Are you sure of these figures Majiball? How could I find them?

[Majiball]

Are you sure of these figures Majiball? How could I find them?

I'm not 100%, it could just as easily be only flybe's. I'm currently flicking through google trying to track down any details I can, so I'm not too sure.

i know they own Flybe and us but what else?? if anyone knows we could simply add it all together to get an idea at least.

If they are making oddles of money, then perhaps people may have a point over the investment issue.

Profits up to £35 Million

Lot more than I thought, it was 15M the year previous. From what I can see so far the rest is made up of property, which isn't doing so well at present. Its almost impossible to find any information on the trust, in any shape of form.

from 2005 flybe spend $950M on planes gues they are still paying for them! exchange rates

[Guest Vinjay606]

Just been reading fan forum notes from April 8th (I think they were only posted on the site yesterday) and takeovers wasn't even brought up. Not even a simple statement of "no current interest" was recorded in the minutes. At the very least it should be mentioned but of course we can't ignore the crucial issue regarding corner flags now can we?

On earlier forum dates when it has been mentioned it's been treated like some afterthought. It's not an afterthought it's the most important issue by far.

[Exiled in Toronto]

They have got it badly wrong and now have an unsaleable asset on their books. Jack would be turning in his grave at the way his beloved club was being handled.

I am beginning to think they have come to the same conclusion and see any investment now as good money after bad. That being the case, there's no point in them spending any money to stay up. If it's unsellable now, there's no difference to them if it's unsellable in the Championship, or worse. If no-one will buy it, it's not worth anything. Hence divert big chunks of transfer fees to pay off the bank loans and the only cash they put in is as a loan which makes them a creditor come the inevitable fire sale when things go t!ts up.

[OJRovers]

Majiball - its not as easy as adding together the profits from the companies that JW's trust own. The paper profit doesn't translate to their earnings, plus we have no idea of their expenses or movement in financial assets held (shares, bonds etc) which are likely to have taken a massive hit over the last 12 months.

I'd guess that the net worth of the trust has devalued over the last year quite easily.

[Guest Vinjay606]

Their fortune seems to have risen over the past few years according to the rich lists. Maybe it has dropped in the last few months but how many businessmen/trusts haven't dropped in overall worth?

Is the trust/family (providing the trust includes Fred Walker's share and it is still his money as far as I'm concerned) in a position to purchase companies or just maintain existing ones such as Flybe?

[bob fleming]

It wasn't actually all bad during the 80's either. I've seen an article from around 1985 saying that BRFC made a profit that season.

£32 million wasn't it? If only we had that now we could buy Berbatov. As it turned out Don McKay later spent it all on Tony Dobson and Steve Livingstone.

I jest, however the profit was probably a lot nearer to £32.00.

[Guest Vinjay606]

It was probably somewhere between 30-50,000 if I recall right. There's a file with quite a few LET BRFC cuttings in the town centre library somewhere.

[Majiball]

Majiball - its not as easy as adding together the profits from the companies that JW's trust own. The paper profit doesn't translate to their earnings, plus we have no idea of their expenses or movement in financial assets held (shares, bonds etc) which are likely to have taken a massive hit over the last 12 months.

I'd guess that the net worth of the trust has devalued over the last year quite easily.

I understand, but just wanted to gain an idea thats all. The trust is private and Jersey based so governed by Jersey law which is bound to be different to England itself. Perhaps you could explain it a little more, I'd be keen to know.

I have no real idea how a trust really works but someone on here must, its probably somewhere on this thread but theres a serious amount of posts to read, and really I should be working.

At the end of the day I suppose it doesn't matter they do what they do, and we will never have any idea or knowledge on the subject.

[Parsonblue]

Their fortune seems to have risen over the past few years according to the rich lists. Maybe it has dropped in the last few months but how many businessmen/trusts haven't dropped in overall worth?

Is the trust/family (providing the trust includes Fred Walker's share and it is still his money as far as I'm concerned) in a position to purchase companies or just maintain existing ones such as Flybe?

I thought that the Trust Fund was set up to administer the businesses that were owned by Jack Walker. Fred Walker has his own business interests - Stanley House being one and he did own a property company. However, the Rovers was very much Jack's project and not Fred's. I would have thought that Fred's own money is not controlled by the Trust although he may well receive income from the Trust for the joint projects that he and Jack were involved in.

[Guest Vinjay606]

West Ham United bank takeover "not certain"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8007763.stm

[JAL]

Totally disagree with you on this one. I believe that John Williams and Tom Finn have done an excellent job in their stewardship of the club. With the limited amount of money we have I really don't see how you could get more value for money. I agree that the Ince appointment was a poor one, but if the Trust weren't happy with it they could have blocked it.

For me the key to our plight this season is that the Trust refused to put extra money into the club in January when a couple of signings could have made a difference. Instead of which Derbyshire had to be moved out before Sam could bring in a couple of players - one only on loan - of his own.

I would not disagree that since Jack's death the Trust have put money into the club. However, I do feel that in our moment of need they were found wanting. I'm not quite sure what business plan they are working to. If they can't sell the club when we are in the Premier League they aren't going to find a buyer with us sitting in the middle of the Championship. Even if we do survive this season are they going to find funds for Sam for next season. If not then we are just delaying relegation by twelve months.

The key to our problems in both the short and long term is a lack of finance - but then again, apart from a brief interlude under Jack Walker, that has been the problem at the club for the past 40 to 50 years.

Three managers in twelve months, watching rubbish football, continueing to maintain a non productive youth system, whilst taking the wage bill way above the level it really should be at and you say they are doing an excellent job..... am I missing something here.

It seems like a national disease amongst the so called 'professional breed', that failure is rewarded with huge financial renumerations with spin put out to mask their incompetencies. Blaming the trust for lack of investment is a bit like a spoilt kid not getting his sweets that he voiciferously demands.

Sorry theres a £35m+ wage bill at Rovers that could be utilised with much more success than is currently being done at Ewood for me the people running it are the one constant reason behind the current plight.

[PAFELL]

I'm not 100%, it could just as easily be only flybe's. I'm currently flicking through google trying to track down any details I can, so I'm not too sure.

i know they own Flybe and us but what else?? if anyone knows we could simply add it all together to get an idea at least.

If they are making oddles of money, then perhaps people may have a point over the investment issue.

Profits up to £35 Million

Lot more than I thought, it was 15M the year previous. From what I can see so far the rest is made up of property, which isn't doing so well at present. Its almost impossible to find any information on the trust, in any shape of form. Is that normal for a trust fund - to operate secretly?

from 2005 flybe spend $950M on planes gues they are still paying for them! exchange rates

Nobody publicly has any idea what are the terms etc etc of the trust fund. It is so secret - it appears - that no matter who is on the supporters forum that the trust can never be asked questions. It is like a secret society. Not having any knowledge on how trust funds work myself, would you know if this is normal for a trust to do this.

[Parsonblue]

Three managers in twelve months, watching rubbish football, continueing to maintain a non productive youth system, whilst taking the wage bill way above the level it really should be at and you say they are doing an excellent job..... am I missing something here.

It seems like a national disease amongst the so called 'professional breed', that failure is rewarded with huge financial renumerations with spin put out to mask their incompetencies. Blaming the trust for lack of investment is a bit like a spoilt kid not getting his sweets that he voiciferously demands.

Sorry theres a £35m+ wage bill at Rovers that could be utilised with much more success than is currently being done at Ewood for me the people running it are the one constant reason behind the current plight.

We lost Hughes because he was fed up of trying to maintain Premiership football on a shoestring budget. That is down to the Trust not John Williams or Tom Finn.

The style of football and the players we buy are down to the managers not John Williams or Tom Finn. Look at the shambles that is QPR to see what happens when the money men start picking the team.

The players we have are of a quality that we can afford. If the money isn't there we have to shop in the bargain basement. We have managed to exploit that market very well in recent years but there was always going to be a time when our luck would run out in that regard.

If the wage bill didn't go up we wouldn't have been able to sign the likes of Craig Bellamy Benni or Roque and they have been the top goalscorers for the past three seasons. Premier League players can virtually dictate terms now. We may not like it but it's a fact of life.

At the end of the day the Premier League is about money. We have less than virtually all of the other clubs in the Premier League and that is why we are struggling.

I don't have a problem with the Trust not wanting to put any more money into the club. In business terms it is probably the correct decision. But let's not kid ourselves that we can maintain Premier League status without outside investment. We practically have to give tickets away to get fans into the ground so we clearly can't be self sufficient in the Premier League in terms of money received at the gate. Indeed, I suspect we would struggle in the Championship when you consider the infra structure that we have to support.

[JAL]

We lost Hughes because he was fed up of trying to maintain Premiership football on a shoestring budget. That is down to the Trust not John Williams or Tom Finn.

The style of football and the players we buy are down to the managers not John Williams or Tom Finn. Look at the shambles that is QPR to see what happens when the money men start picking the team.

The players we have are of a quality that we can afford. If the money isn't there we have to shop in the bargain basement. We have managed to exploit that market very well in recent years but there was always going to be a time when our luck would run out in that regard.

If the wage bill didn't go up we wouldn't have been able to sign the likes of Craig Bellamy Benni or Roque and they have been the top goalscorers for the past three seasons. Premier League players can virtually dictate terms now. We may not like it but it's a fact of life.

At the end of the day the Premier League is about money. We have less than virtually all of the other clubs in the Premier League and that is why we are struggling.

I don't have a problem with the Trust not wanting to put any more money into the club. In business terms it is probably the correct decision. But let's not kid ourselves that we can maintain Premier League status without outside investment. We practically have to give tickets away to get fans into the ground so we clearly can't be self sufficient in the Premier League in terms of money received at the gate. Indeed, I suspect we would struggle in the Championship when you consider the infra structure that we have to support.

Hows £35m in wages a shoestring budget for me thats 35 people on £1m each season. So how many clubs in the premiership have wage bills less than Rovers

A simple estimate is 35 players with managers earning around £1m each is more than enough one would think, even if you need to pay somebody more than £1m then the 35 becomes less maybe 30 but still more than enough to put out a decent team.

If individual earnings are higher are we really seeing value for money or is the payments based on past performances rather than future performances.

With the way the performances are going I could probably guarantee that you couldnt give tickets away to watch Rovers if the current crop of players remain at Ewood Park and the negativity from the board remains about lack of investment.

[yoda]

That's not how Jack Walker felt.

How do you know how Jack felt?

Don't you think it's because of mentality like this from certain fans which forced the likes of Shearer out? When he left the club he voiced his belief that Jack would take the club back to the top but maybe he got tired of some older fans acting so small minded.

Who forced Shearer out? I have never heard that one before!

I accept that even if the owners were backing the club to a decent standard it wouldn't be enough to challenge for the title. While Jack was here though there was no means of knowing inflation in transfers/wages was going to hit such levels. If there was Jack with his business acumen would have instantly recognised the patterns.

Jack Walker had already stopped ploughing money in while he was alive, hence not investing in the team after winning the title, or are you conveniently forgetting that point?

No doubt whatsoever Jack would be disgusted.

This greed thing is a good point and I make reference to Ronnie/Chowdery being quoted different prices for the club. There should be a fixed price not attempts to start a bidding war.

[broadsword]

jack Walker stopped ploughing his money in after 1995?

You've got to be joking, he gave Roy Hodge-Podge a small fortune, and Kidd as well.

[philipl]

Yes Jack stopped putting money in for a while after the title was won.

Then re-invested to two seasons later. Unfortunately it funded a Hodgson ego trip rather than a consistently successful football team. Then came the Kidd nightmare...

[yoda]

Yes Jack stopped putting money in for a while after the title was won.

Then re-invested to two seasons later. Unfortunately it funded a Hodgson ego trip rather than a consistently successful football team. Then came the Kidd nightmare...

By which time the damage was done and Jack became ill

Vinjay may answer how he knows how Jack felt and who forced Shearer out but I doubt it!

[Guest Vinjay606]

It was Harford who decided not to spend in the summer of 1995. There were signings during the 95-97 period as well though they took place during seasons. Bohinen was highly rated for instance and so was Donis with BRFC reportedly beating Man United to his signature. Players like Flitcroft and McKinlay were also signed in that time period. Chris Coleman also. It's Harford's fault if none of those players turned out to be title winning class. I have no doubt that Jack appointed Harford because he filled in really well for Dalglish while he was briefly incapacitated (appendix removal if I recall right) in 94-95.

Hodgson was regarded as a world class coach by virtually the whole football world. Jack in my view appointed Kidd to annoy Ferguson as revenge for the Shearer rumours (I doubt he would have done it had Kidd been with Arsenal/Liverpool) but still considering him a top class candidate.

[philipl]

It was Harford who decided not to spend in the summer of 1995.

Wrong

Consistent for you- a lot of your stuff is factually incorrect.

[Parsonblue]

It was Harford who decided not to spend in the summer of 1995. There were signings during the 95-97 period as well though they took place during seasons. Bohinen was highly rated for instance and so was Donis with BRFC reportedly beating Man United to his signature. Players like Flitcroft and McKinlay were also signed in that time period. Chris Coleman also. It's Harford's fault if none of those players turned out to be title winning class. I have no doubt that Jack appointed Harford because he filled in really well for Dalglish while he was briefly incapacitated (appendix removal if I recall right) in 94-95.

Hodgson was regarded as a world class coach by virtually the whole football world. Jack in my view appointed Kidd to annoy Ferguson as revenge for the Shearer rumours (I doubt he would have done it had Kidd been with Arsenal/Liverpool) but still considering him a top class candidate.

It was Jack who decided not to spend in the summer of 1995, not Ray Harford. I well remember the interview that Jack did for Radio Rovers in which he said that he felt that the club had enough players.

You really have no grasp of the history of this club at all Vinjay.

Fact - Ray Harford was highly rated by Jack Walker as both manager and coach. Ray offered to resign on a couple of occasions before he actually went but Jack wouldn't let him. Jack didn't want him to go when he actually did.

Fact - Ray Harford had been a successful manager in his own right before he agreed to link up with Kenny. Just look at what he achieved at Luton Town. Jack appointing him had nothing to do with Kenny being ill over the Christmas period of 94-95. Ray was already a successful manager before he arrived at Ewood Park.

Jack did a brilliant job for Blackburn Rovers but he was only human and like all of us he made mistakes. He believed the 1995 squad was good enough to take the club up to the next level but it wasn't. I also believe that if he'd kept Roy Hodgson we wouldn't have gone down.

Kidd had an excellent reputation as a coach and had done a wonderful job with United. I could fully understand why he appointed him and if you believe that a hard headed businessman like Jack would put the club at risk simply to annoy Sir Alex you really have lost the plot. Jack appointed Kidd because he felt he was a good appointment.

[AggyBlue]

Wrong

Consistent for you- a lot of your stuff is factually incorrect.

Harford did come out with his famous quote that summer 'If it ain't broke....'

[Guest Vinjay606]

Fact - Ray Harford was highly rated by Jack Walker as both manager and coach. Ray offered to resign on a couple of occasions before he actually went but Jack wouldn't let him. Jack didn't want him to go when he actually did.

Fact - Ray Harford had been a successful manager in his own right before he agreed to link up with Kenny. Just look at what he achieved at Luton Town. Jack appointing him had nothing to do with Kenny being ill over the Christmas period of 94-95. Ray was already a successful manager before he arrived at Ewood Park.

As if Jack would have hired someone based on accomplishments at a club like Luton. The clubs Harford manged previously had nowhere near the expectations Jack required for a BRFC manager. It had everything to do with his success while filling in for Dalglish. That's the only reason he was offered the main role.

Jack was simply repeating Harford's wishes when he said he felt the club had enough players. Jack wasn't going to go against the wishes of his new manager. The fans never came out and said what a big mistake the club (i.e harford) was making. Easy to criticise in hindsight isn't it?

Speaking of Jack appearing on Radio Rovers that Charles Lambert book said when Jack was a "guest" he chose "My Way" by F.Sinatra as his no 1 track. He owned the club so how on earth was he a guest?

I said he would have considered Kidd a good opponent but annoying Ferguson must have been an extra bonus. Do you think Kidd would have been hired had he been assistant with Arsenal or Liverpool for instance?