[Archived] Rovers Takeover Thread

[Fife Rover]

Rovers have to be the most efficient club in terms of expenditure and league position over the last several seasons.

And I must admit to having a change of heart over the last couple of seasons about getting an investor. It's very easy to get attracted to the idea of new 'investment' but, as we've all seen with other clubs, where has the money got them? Are Sunderland in a position to fight for a European spot? Are Tottenham a top for club? Are Villa??? Have Man City reached Europe yet?

The way our club is currently run makes me feel extremely glad as a true football fan as to how professional a club we are and how we value the true meaning of football - not as a commerciality glamour glut but as something for the fans. We don't have the Ronaldinho's of the world, it's true. But we have a proper club to support in the top tier of football and in this day and age we should be grateful for that.

I can vouch for at least one Manchester City fan who became disillusioned with his club when Thaksin Shinawatra came on board and bumped their season ticket prices up massively (well, massive prices for a massive club). He's stopped going for several seasons and now only keeps a distant interest. OK, he's a massochist who goes on about the money in football all the time but, as a Rovers fan, what would I know! But in a small way I feel sorry for the fact that he is a football fan who's club has effectively ignored him - by being totally stupid and greedy.

At work I'm alongside several Man Utd fans, a Liverpool fan, a Leeds fan, a Citeh fan, a Stockport County fan. They all respect Rovers - you can sense it when they talk. It makes me proud. They all admire how we, who have little cash comparitively, achieve what we do amongst the big fish.

Now, I don't know what my point is in writing this post - I think I'm just backing up Parsons in a way. But while we should always hope our club will aim high and reach high, we probably aren't aware of how lucky we actually are.

Well said El Tombro; you are SOOOOO right!. If only the vast majority of the football supporting population could see it too! The wrongs of the last few decades, but especially since the inception of the Premier League, would be righted. We can but live in hope.

[American]

It's as though Rovers are almost writing off gate receipts as a source of income. Maybe I'm a bit naive to think they're being kind hearted to us directly - maybe their thinking is that a fuller Ewood spurs on the players and we'll end up higher in the league (and therefore recuperate some of the lost money - half a million per place is it?).

If they get the service for food and drink sorted, matchday revenues should make up for lost ticket revenues (I'd think that would be one of the reasons).

[yoda]

why do you get out of bed in the morning

correct

interesting

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8177638.stm

[den]

If Allardyce is right and the trustees are holding back c£10m from the sale of RSC and Derbyshire - is no-one concerned as to how the club is going?

That's an awful lot of money to deny the manager. I would imagine most managers, after seeing that, would get out of here as quickly as possible. There's absolutely no way this club can survive in the Prem with that kind of stewardship - in my opinion, of course.

To the more financially educated on here, what's it all about - was it absolutely necessary, and if so, - why? Is it about the trustees clawing back anything they can possibly get their hands on, or is it the trustees absolutely having to do this simply to keep the ship afloat?

I know what I think, but what about other people?

[mellison24]

The money the club can feasibly afford to potentially lose on players WILL go to the manager. Any money that isn't worth risking is ploughed back into the club or goes to the banks, so that more money will be available (due to less debt) in future. Simples *squeak*

[Exiled in Toronto]

If Allardyce is right and the trustees are holding back c£10m from the sale of RSC and Derbyshire - is no-one concerned as to how the club is going?

That's an awful lot of money to deny the manager. I would imagine most managers, after seeing that, would get out of here as quickly as possible. There's absolutely no way this club can survive in the Prem with that kind of stewardship - in my opinion, of course.

To the more financially educated on here, what's it all about - was it absolutely necessary, and if so, - why? Is it about the trustees clawing back anything they can possibly get their hands on, or is it the trustees absolutely having to do this?

I know what I think, but what about other people?

Couldn't agree more - contrary what JW says, we are definitely a selling club now as opposed to a trading club.

The bit I haven't figured out is how/why such an overdraft built up during a period when i) Sky money was going up exponentially, and ii) we were denying Hughes transfer funds - didn't his reign trade about even?

Personally, I think it is ludicrous that the running costs of the club were allowed to rise to the extent that they consumed all the extra Sky money plus another 10 million. For example, I was stunned when Nicko informed us a while ago that we pay higher wages than a club like Spurs on a like-for-like basis. I thought at the time that excessive pay rises for the likes of MGP, Nelsen etc would bite us in the bum.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Is it about the trustees clawing back anything they can possibly get their hands on, or is it the trustees absolutely having to do this simply to keep the ship afloat?

I really hope its not this,although I have voiced concerns before.

[Majiball]

If Allardyce is right and the trustees are holding back c£10m from the sale of RSC and Derbyshire - is no-one concerned as to how the club is going?

That's an awful lot of money to deny the manager. I would imagine most managers, after seeing that, would get out of here as quickly as possible. There's absolutely no way this club can survive in the Prem with that kind of stewardship - in my opinion, of course.

To the more financially educated on here, what's it all about - was it absolutely necessary, and if so, - why? Is it about the trustees clawing back anything they can possibly get their hands on, or is it the trustees absolutely having to do this simply to keep the ship afloat?

I know what I think, but what about other people?

Where did that come from????

are you saying the bank didn't take the money???? Have you got a link.

[den]

Where did that come from????

are you saying the bank didn't take the money???? Have you got a link.

I've no idea where the money went Majiball, that's why I'm asking. Now that leaves me open to a bit of ridicule, but the question is worth asking. £10m in one foul swoop is a lot of money taken from the value of the playing squad, on top of a big cut in the wages bill. What would have happened if we hadn't sold RSC? Was it absolutely vital to recoup a full £10m?

[John]

What would have happened if we hadn't sold RSC?

Would Sam have had no money at all to spend if this was the case?

[den]

I could understand it a little more easily, if we'd just come out of a good solid season. It was too close for comfort and the squad at this time needs investment more than for a long time. Wrong time to take so much money out of the squad IMO.

[Majiball]

I've no idea where the money went Majiball, that's why I'm asking. Now that leaves me open to a bit of ridicule, but the question is worth asking. £10m in one foul swoop is a lot of money taken from the value of the playing squad, on top of a big cut in the wages bill. What would have happened if we hadn't sold RSC? Was it absolutely vital to recoup a full £10m?

Perhaps then it has to do with last season?? I'd like to think they weren't sitting on it per-say but now we have a emergency fund so to speak IE relegation threatened again? funds to sack him and funds to bring in one or two players. I'm convinced part of the reason the weasle didn't get canned sooner was money. Last year we where left with no transfer fund after he was canned.

The one part about the overdraft I don't really understand is no other clubs that I've heard off are paying off their overdrafts, so why did we have to?? Its hardly as if RBS is saying to liverpool give us the Alonso money.

If we do have 10M sat in the bank then I'm sorry but even giving Sam say half would gain us a midfield maestro, perhaps thats what he meant about persuading them to dig deep should that deal that needs to be taken comes along.

Do the accounts state our overdraft limit?? If so we'll find out when they come out.

EDIT: thats a good point John

[92er]

When I read the article in the LT, I presumed the money to the Bank would be a combination of covering last season's losses and paying a few million off the overdraft.

From what I remember the Directors were envisaging a higher finish, which would have resulted in a higher income. The financial consequence of last season's

problems is going to be high.

[modes98]

From what I remember the Directors were envisaging a higher finish, which would have resulted in a higher income. The financial consequence of last season's

problems is going to be high.

I think that is correct. Each season the club makes an educated guess upon where the club will finish and budgets for that prize money, however falling so low left us well short as the prize money is quite significant thesedays.

How were the ticket sales last season? I think our average was up, which considering the recession and Ince would have been amazing and will continue, although at a lower price, this season.

The club has to be run to break even, which is a shame. We need a buyer but I don't see one in the pipeline Just wait for me to make a few billion and I'll invest.

[Majiball]

So perhaps we're back to budgeting on finishing 17th with everything else being a bonus?

[Parsonblue]

92er is quite right. The club had envisaged a higher finish than was actually achieved. They also didn't envisage a change of manager in mid-season and all the additional costs that went with it. I think that in the last set of accounts it was stated with without further investment the club would move from a trading club to a selling club. This, combined with the fact according to the Times Rich List this year the Walker's lost a considerable slice of their fortune in the economic slump, would suggest that there is very little money available.

I certainly don't think that we are sitting on money. Quite the reverse. If the bank require money to be repaid there is very little that the club can do. It's good business sense to pay off debt rather than allow it to accumulate to the point where you are calling in the administrators. Look at Leeds United, Southampton, Charlton Athletic, Newcastle United etc. Personally, I much prefer the approach of John Williams and his fellow directors. Maintain Premier League status without bankrupting the club in the process. Of course, it's an approach that requires a manager who can operate on the margins and adopt a more pragmatic approach to gaining points. Last season we suffered because for the first half of the campaign we had an inexperienced manager who unable to walk that particular tightrope.

[John]

The delights of paying Ince and his merry men compensation too would not have helped...

[DeadlyDirk]

The official accounts showed that we were 17m in debt at the end of June 2008, that's about as much as I worked out, it showed on the account that around 11m was due in one year's time (Due a month or so ago basically). Philip who seems more educated in the financial side of things said that the 11m due in 12 months time was probably just our ongoing bank overdraft. So although if it was just an overdraft it might not be as an immediate concern but whatever way you look at it we were 17m in debt around a year ago.

When Sam says the money has gone to the bank it probably does mean that it's gone to clearing a lot if not all of our overdraft. We do still owe the trust fund 3m I believe though (Perhaps 2m by now, it seemed to be 1m paid back a year) plus whatever the rest of the 17m debt is if you take off the overdraft and trust fund.

So I would guess our debt is now down to about 6-7m and our cash balance is probably zero or still slightly in the red, depending on how much wages over the last couple of months (Remembering we've obviously had no gate income for a couple of months) have been countered by shirt and season ticket sales.

The other half of Roque and Derbs money was obviously used to buy Kalinic, Givet and N'Zonzi.

All in all I'd say were in a pretty decent position now after the sales to move forward in the future and to attract a buyer. I think I remember we made a small profit last year 12 months ago but as modes said, premiership placing probably meant we made a small loss last year

It does make me wonder though, had Roque not wanted to leave what we would have done.

[den]

All in all I'd say were in a pretty decent position now after the sales to move forward in the future and to attract a buyer.

It does make me wonder though, had Roque not wanted to leave what we would have done.

What will the financial position be though, if we were to be relegated due to lack of investment in the midfield department?

As for your second point DD, that illustrates that the taking of the £10m probably wasn't needed desperately. I can't see that we would have had to recoup that cash if RSC hadn't left. It was an opportunity that the trustees elected to go for, when it wasn't necessary?

[1864roverite]

A question Den, and I agree with what you are talking about, is this.

Is it better to have the money being paid to the bank first off saving in fees and penalties or leaving Rovers to have big payments further down the line for interest etc ?

If the need arises to raise funds by borrowing, the line of credit is clearly improved having paid a chunk off now.

[DeadlyDirk]

You only have to look at Portsmouth to see what buying players with money you can't really afford and gambling with finishing high in the premiership can do to you if it all goes wrong. (That may be too thin a view on what happened and there's probably more to it but that's what it seems like to me, similiar to Newcastle.)

It probably wasn't seen as such an urgency 12 months ago but last season unfortunately showed JW that we are not safe from relegation if things were to go pear shaped. (Things are looking better for this year but a few key injuries or Kalinic flopping could see us in a similiar position this year) Unfortunately or fortunately depending on what side of the fence you sit on JW seems to take into account the worse case scenario and perhaps last season showed him that the 'worst case scenario' was worse than he thought. (I don't think many of us in May 08 expected us to be deep in a relegation battle for the following season)

This season will be all about stabalising the club as a mid-table premiership force, however were we to get relegated in a worst case scenario, we are now in a much better position financially to try and get promoted.

If this season we can get the achievement of mid table and can see the likes of N'Zonzi, Kalinic, Hoilett among others the worst case scenario then becomes perhaps finishing 15th, 16th or so enabling us to then start aiming a bit higher and perhaps splashing a bit more cash with the safety in knowledge that should it go wrong we won't be spending the following season in the championship.

Slowly but surely we'll improve the squad and improve the club I'm sure, which then might make somebody wake up one day and think about buying us

Arte Et Labore

Just remember spending money all at once on new signings and trying to fit them into a squad and play together doesn't always work, Citeh were in a relegation battle for 2/3 of the season and look how much they spent.

[RevidgeBlue]

If Allardyce is right and the trustees are holding back c£10m from the sale of RSC and Derbyshire - is no-one concerned as to how the club is going?

That's an awful lot of money to deny the manager. I would imagine most managers, after seeing that, would get out of here as quickly as possible. There's absolutely no way this club can survive in the Prem with that kind of stewardship - in my opinion, of course.

To the more financially educated on here, what's it all about - was it absolutely necessary, and if so, - why? Is it about the trustees clawing back anything they can possibly get their hands on, or is it the trustees absolutely having to do this simply to keep the ship afloat?

I know what I think, but what about other people?

No, there's two of us at least den, even if the majority of people seem to be happy at this stage.

It seems pretty obvious to me that the owners are now asset stripping the players, the days when "the manager can have every penny raised in revenue to put back into the team" seem to be long gone. A pretty sad state of afairs that they're now taking money out when Jack originally set up the Trust to assist his businesses.

Looking towards the end of this season and next it seems pretty obvious what will happen, Friedel and Bentley gone last season, RSC and Derbyshire this, Samba/Warnock/Robinson next season and an attempt will be made to adequately replace them on the cheap. What do we do then? There'll be no more family silver to flog off!

I've defended the Trustees in the past , saying they couldn't be expected to sell the Club on the cheap. I still don't believe they'll do that but I now firmly believe for the good of the Club they need to go asap. By the time our last couple of saleable players go and are not replaced like for like it will be too late.

As a side issue i'm surprised at Sam seemingly being content with selling two players for c21m and only being allowed to reinvest half that on the playing side. You'd have thought he wouldn't have put up with that if he intended being here for the long haul.

[Paul]

Leeds, Newcastle, Portsmouth give us three good examples of why the club's financial management has to be right above and beyond everything else. I'd agree with the views expressed by den and RB and I'm not at all happy with what I see happening to the squad. Despite the excitment fans try to generate in the close season around signings the truth is we're picking up players few of us have heard of and are largely unknown quantities. I'm looking forward to the season but nothing has given me a tinge of excitment through the summer...........Nathan Ellington for goodness sake.

I don't see any other choice though. As American has said the club seem to have given up on ticket sales as a source of revenue, we are now entirely reliant on Sky money, but I'd have to disagree when he says catering etc will replace this. JW stated sometime back average concourse spend is £1.13 per fan per match - no one will get fat on that. Look at the regulars I buy a KitKat from time to time, I know den has a cup of tea! I think we have given up on gate revenue and view a full ground as a better source of revenue - good atmosphere helps the team and hopefully lifts the performances to push us up the league.

I've always understood the first thing one should do with spare cash is to pay of debts, one can always borrow again, and I feel sure if the new Tugay becomes available funds will be found to sign him. After all we've just chucked a rumoured £6m at Kalinic. Meanwhile controlling the debt has to be top priority. I understand the view which says relegation will cost even more but the sad fact is money does not prevent relegation, sound management does but it has to be at every level. Look at Newcastle, relegated, debt ridden, overpaid squad, no manager I doubt they will come back up and a couple of seasons in the championship could finish them off. Ashley has to find £65m just to pay the players, according to AESF he's only got £700m left - I am being serious how long before he looks at the club and decides to go into administration?

My question to those who say we should be spending more has always been this, and TBH I've yet to have an answer, "If the club becomes debt ridden and we go down how are we going to recover / repay the debt?" The club has no serious income outside of Sky, we can't afford debt. This is modern football, I won't bang on about this but it's where we have come to in 15 or so years of Sky money.

[Iceman]

Is it just me, or are the club putting more and more emphasis on reducing ticket prices. What im getting at is, the more fans behind the team the more hope we will be driven on up the league by the fans. The higher up we are, the more Sky money we get. It then probably gets subdivided between transfers, paying off debt and the loss of having to reduce ticket prices. Does that make any sense to anybody? Sorry if it doesnt.

[Grez]

It seems pretty obvious to me that the owners are now asset stripping

Are these the same assett strippers that turned

Circa £70m of debt (trust loans) into share capital a couple of years ago to make the club financially stable? Damn those investors - really wish we didn't have them! We should be grateful for what we have. We are an unfashionable club operating on tight margins.