[Archived] Roque Santa Cruz Thread

[BuckyRover]

I don't.

The people that signed them do (Arsenal don't do bad with their youth team do they?)

[DingleBaiter]

and you know that they are the top youngsters in the country? How?

I think Imy's got a point in principle, insofar as it's a good strategy and certainly a clearly-stated objective of the club that probably was another reason they plumped for PI as manager. However I think it's more of an opinion rather than based on empirical evidence.

It's simply not enough to garner (bow) young talent; if the club harvests said young talent through to the first team then it will be deemed a success, providing they do the business and save spending fortunes on importing (bigger wages and fees).

At least at Rovers, it's less of a 'numbers game' through the Academy than it is at the bigger clubs, and they've a clearer path to aim for. United, Arsenal, Chelsea, have far more churn and it's more of a production line/factory; Liverpool at least have smaller, more sensible intakes although predominantly more international in flavour. The lad in goal Sat morning Rafa rated as the best goalkeeper for his age IN THE WORLD - oops.

[den]

I don't.

The people that signed them do (Arsenal don't do bad with their youth team do they?)

One of these days Bucky, and I haven't given up all hope yet, you'll say something interesting.

[Parsonblue]

I don't think anyone realistically expected Roque to be with us for more than one season when he signed his new contract in the summer. The truth is that at this moment in time he is a player capable of playing in the Champions League and is at a club that is going to struggle to remain in mid-table in the near future. Simple economics suggest that the challenge for the Rovers is to maintain Premiership football at Ewood Park. We might not like it but the fact is that every season we remain in the Premiership is a victory against the odds.

History has shown that the Rovers have struggled to maintain top flight football since we were relegated in 1935-36. After the war we were relegated after two seasons. From 1958-59 to 1965-66 we managed eight seasons and with all Jack's wealth our stay at the top only lasted from 1992-93 to 1998-99. Our present stay in the Premiership began in 2001-02 so if we avoid relegation we will have matched our longest period at the top since 1935!

Over the years the club have had many excellent players but good players want to win things and anyone who has followed the Rovers over any length of time knows that we don't win things all that often. That's what makes it so special when we do and why the past few seasons under Hughes, when we have successfully competed for European qualification, have been so good.

If Roque wants to test himself in European football then good luck to him. I would wish him well as I did with Bentley and Hughes. Others will come to replace him and hopefully they will prove successful. However, if they do it's just as certain that they too will move on. It's a fact of life for a club like the Rovers.

The main point is that the players should give 100 per cent while with the club and I think Roque and Bentley have both done that.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

If Santa cruz wanted a move to City he would have kicked a fuss when City had a bid rejected in the summer. This story has emerged from a radio station in Paraguay, probably mis-translated. It is time for everybody to calm down.

The usual doom merchants are preaching imminient doom for Rovers again, whilst the defenders of the new era are preaching all is well.

There is no point getting worked up over something that won't become apparent until January at the earliest. Time for everybody to take a chill pill. Lets worry about it after December 31st.

[BRFC4EVA]

Hardly a great source:

"Manchester City is a team that has a very important financial support that is getting prepared for winning the title," Santa Cruz told Primero de Marzo, a radio station in his homeland.

Primero de abril more like

[Fylde Coast Fan]

How does the British gutter press get hold of quotes from a Paraguayan radio station without someone pointing it out to them?

[den]

I don't think anyone realistically expected Roque to be with us for more than one season when he signed his new contract in the summer. The truth is that at this moment in time he is a player capable of playing in the Champions League and is at a club that is going to struggle to remain in mid-table in the near future. Simple economics suggest that the challenge for the Rovers is to maintain Premiership football at Ewood Park. We might not like it but the fact is that every season we remain in the Premiership is a victory against the odds.

History has shown that the Rovers have struggled to maintain top flight football since we were relegated in 1935-36. After the war we were relegated after two seasons. From 1958-59 to 1965-66 we managed eight seasons and with all Jack's wealth our stay at the top only lasted from 1992-93 to 1998-99. Our present stay in the Premiership began in 2001-02 so if we avoid relegation we will have matched our longest period at the top since 1935!

Over the years the club have had many excellent players but good players want to win things and anyone who has followed the Rovers over any length of time knows that we don't win things all that often. That's what makes it so special when we do and why the past few seasons under Hughes, when we have successfully competed for European qualification, have been so good.

If Roque wants to test himself in European football then good luck to him. I would wish him well as I did with Bentley and Hughes. Others will come to replace him and hopefully they will prove successful. However, if they do it's just as certain that they too will move on. It's a fact of life for a club like the Rovers.

The main point is that the players should give 100 per cent while with the club and I think Roque and Bentley have both done that.

You sound like Souness on one of his downers ParsonBlue.

Personally speaking, I can't wish Bentley all the best after the way he conducted himself. Nor do I wish Hughes all the best with the way he's still trying to unsettle RSC, even though he's been told, in no uncertain terms, to leave the situation alone. Neither do I wish, at this time, RSC all the best in his quest to leave rovers.

Good point about rovers struggling to maintain top division status since 1935. In those days the league was wide open for any club to attain that first division status and even win it. Nowadays, rovers have a financial advantage over all but the clubs within the Premier league - and we have a financial advantage over some of those. All the Prem clubs have an inbuilt BIG advantage against any promoted club as well, don't forget that. History means nothing.

I just find all this attitude of accepting that rovers can do nothing about anything, so depressing. People call me negative, but it wont take much to lose what we have now - Premier League football. Accepting that rovers will have to let any/all of our best players leave, at the timing of the player is simply not true. Is that not as negative as it gets.

A club must have a structure that doesn't accept defeat to any team, doesn't accept that their club can't keep hold of good players. That doesn't mean that they will succeed all of the time, but any other approach is worrying.

I mean, - let's allow the top players to go and bring on the youth team. Might as well support Crewe.

[92er]

I can understand an ambitious player making these statements; I can understand such a player being frustrated that we can no longer expect to get any points off the top 4. I can also understand him making such statements in his own country.

What I'm not clear about is where Roque is. I thought he was injured and not involved in Paraguay's World Cup matches. If this is the case, why is he in Paraguay making these statements? If he is not there, when did he make them?

According to Radio Lancs today, the Rovers are not going to comment on the matter.

[imy9]

When did we start to do that imy?

Add Simpson to the list provided already by posters, plus blooding Judge, Treacy, Marshall into the first team too, it is the way forward for Rovers because we cannot compete in the transfer market (not unless we want to do a Leeds Utd).

It helps that we have Whitbread who was the head of youth development (or something similar) at Liverpool.

[tonygreenbank]

Makes the Rovers- City match on the 28th of December an interesting one! He could be " injured" for that one methinks.

[Parsonblue]

I just find all this attitude of accepting that rovers can do nothing about anything, so depressing. People call me negative, but it wont take much to lose what we have now - Premier League football. Accepting that rovers will have to let any/all of our best players leave, at the timing of the player is simply not true. Is that not as negative as it gets.

A club must have a structure that doesn't accept defeat to any team, doesn't accept that their club can't keep hold of good players. That doesn't mean that they will succeed all of the time, but any other approach is worrying.

I mean, - let's allow the top players to go and bring on the youth team. Might as well support Crewe.

While I agree with the sentiments of your viewpoint den, I'm afraid that history suggests we can't hang on to our players. Forget going back to the days of Vernon, Pickering, England and Newton etc. Just look at how the Championship winning side broke up and that was with us having Jack's money to back us. Ultimately, those players left because they felt they could win things elsewhere and we were seen as a club in decline because we didn't strengthen in the summer of 1995. If Manchester City come knocking on our door in January for Roque do you really believe that the club will turn down £15, £20 or £25 million? If we couldn't hang on to Shearer, Berg, Hendry and Le Saux within a couple of seasons of winning the title I don't think we can expect to hang on to our better players now that we are a mid-table outfit. I agree it is depressing but I really don't see how we can turn it around without a massive influx of new money.

I don't think we are the only club in this position as ultimately the likes of Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal are always going to be difficult to shift from the top four. The new money at City gives them a chance while Villa might be able to do it if they can add one or two experienced players to their promising youngsters. The point I'm trying to make is that the very best players want to win things. Thus, if they are successful at Ewood Park it is only natural that they will start to eye a move to a club where honours are a possiblity. Players are professionals and the best want to achieve as much as they can in their careers. I honestly believe that the only way you can keep players is if you can persuade them that you have a genuine chance of winning something and becoming part of the glamour of the Champions League.

[The Prof.]

Add Simpson to the list provided already by posters, plus blooding Judge, Treacy, Marshall into the first team too, it is the way forward for Rovers because we cannot compete in the transfer market (not unless we want to do a Leeds Utd).

It helps that we have Whitbread who was the head of youth development (or something similar) at Liverpool.

And this way lies madness. Whitbread was replaced with the Dutch fella 'cos he just wasn't up to the modern game. Got that from the horses mouth of a Liverpool scout.

[John]

It is true sadly, and I have slowly come round to the way of thinking that we cannot hang onto our best/better players. As some have highlighted, history also shows this to be the case.

As a club, we provide a good environment for players who have maybe lost their way in their careers, but when to comes to real ambition, sadly I can understand players moving on (even though the grass is not always greener). My worry is trying to replace someone like Santa.

Hughes had a remarkable way of being able to find and sign good quality players with limited/hardly any financial resources. I think any manager of our club (in these times) is going to find it increasingly hard to keep us anywhere near the top ten.

[den]

PB.

I haven't said that Rovers shouldn't ever sell their best players. That's not my point. They should do it only when they must and when it's best for the club. Accepting that we can never keep anyone is not the way for a club to approach things. You keep hold of them as long as you can, because you don't know what the future holds. Things change, minds change, form changes, circumstances change.

We didn't have to sell Bentley, Friedel or RSC.

Simply allowing anyone to leave, whenever they ask to move is a quick route to relegation.

In short, my answer to RSC [if he asks for a move] would be simple. It would have been the same to Bentley - NO. I'm also quite certain that DB would be providing goals this season for Rocky.

[rover6]

What it boils down to is that all clubs like Rovers have to put on an act.

We have to pretend that we are resolute in keeping all our good players. We have to kick and spit and scream when big clubs come sniffing. The price has to be driven up and the prowlers have to be scared of, for a while.

Ultimately, we will sell if another club is determined enough to buy. But by putting on the hysterical act, we at least do not make ourselves easy targets.

[imy9]

PB.

I haven't said that Rovers shouldn't ever sell their best players. That's not my point. They should do it only when they must and when it's best for the club. Accepting that we can never keep anyone is not the way for a club to approach things. You keep hold of them as long as you can, because you don't know what the future holds. Things change, minds change, form changes, circumstances change.

We didn't have to sell Bentley, Friedel or RSC.

Simply allowing anyone to leave, whenever they ask to move is a quick route to relegation.

In short, my answer to RSC [if he asks for a move] would be simple. It would have been the same to Bentley - NO. I'm also quite certain that DB would be providing goals this season for Rocky.

I admire your way of thinking which in an ideal world I would agree with BUT this is the mad world of football.

If we get an offer of over x amount (whatever JW feels is the right amount for our club) for Roque the right thing for the club would be to sell as this is a lot of money and the player wants to move to another club. We have the power to turn down offers but when the right one comes along we (alongside 99% of clubs) have to sell.

Also about Whitbread- it is widely acknowledged that Liverpool have been buying up some of the worlds top talent of players under 17 years old, Whitbread has overseen this, so I would take what was said about him with a pinch of salt.

[roverfanuk]

Right, we should have £20m or more to spend should this all happen. Who would we get? Or could Benni get fit and back to his 1st season form with more games?

Im sorry, but we sold Bentley, arguably our best midfielder and then wasted what little of that money we had to spend on Grella (4 million...), i don't have much faith in the clubs ability at this moment in time to spend the money we have on what we need.

I mean we didnt even sign a RM to replace Bentley, we just signed a RB on loan and moved Emerton to RM... We still need that RM in january as far as im concerned...

If we sell Cruz so soon after him signing a new contract, and so soon after we said we 'would not sell him', i will loose most the remaining faith i have in the clubs aim to move onwards and upwards...

Also, Cruz has broken a promise as far as im concerned, he has seen the money go into Man City after rejecting quite obviously (the first time) for thinking Thaksins money was gonna get a hold put on it, and now the new money has come in, he wants to move. Shame on your Roque, seriously, shame on you!

I knew their was something wrong in that grin he had on his face when the Sky interviewer was interviewing him in the club shop, and that kiddy asked if he was going to leave and he said "no..." First thing that jumped into my head was, 'no not now, but given a hefty injection into his bank account and a clear run to the top (supposedly), you will be gone like a shot and to hell to the club that helped you back on the right track......

[DanLad]

Either through blind faith, naivete, panic or whatever the point that's being missed is that this is the SECOND similar article from RSC in a week.

So much for being a model pro, hey?

This from the same press that have us down as bully boys for the last 3 years?

That must be true too?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

He's just the latest one playing the plant a story in your local press trick. If it turns out City have bigger fish to fry ( Torres, Van Nistlehorse ) you just say you were misquoted, if they are interested well they've got all the encouragement they need.

Normally I wouldn't be too bent out of shape but I have no faith at all in the current management of the club signing a suitable replacement no matter how much dosh we get in return.

[grizfoot]

Makes the Rovers- City match on the 28th of December an interesting one! He could be " injured" for that one methinks.

Nothing would give me greater pleasure than beating Citeh on that date.

Don't leave Roque!

[old darwen blue]

FFS that is on the skysports webpage so it lost lost all credibility to me already!

Anyway if he did leave we would get a replacement

[DingleBaiter]

And this way lies madness. Whitbread was replaced with the Dutch fella 'cos he just wasn't up to the modern game. Got that from the horses mouth of a Liverpool scout.

And did the same 'horses mouth' tell you the full story of what a calamity their Academy is? Of course he didn't; like most Scousers he probably took great delight in telling you something he knows about football that you don't.

Did the same horses mouth tell you Liverpool sanction letting their scouts spitting their dummies out when they lose out on players, spreading tittle tattle amongst family, friends, team-mates at clubs. I'd suggest not.

How sour were his grapes, did he say?

[eddiecolne]

Wish people would calm down, the press is going to be full of this guff till January and beyond. By the time the transfer window opens again things will have changed, they do every day, in life as well as football. Rovers fans need to realise this. Anyway, here's my top 10 Realisations I think might happen by January:

1 Roque realises he's better off at the Rovers while things settle down.

2 The Arabs realise their mistake and walk away from City.

3 The Arabs realise their mistake and replace M HUghes.

4 M Hughes realises his mistake, as he gets the sack.

5 M Hughes realises his mistake, that even with all the money in the world, he can't win a trophy with City.

6 The football authorities realise things can't go on as they are, and suspend all transfer dealings until further notice.

7 West Ham realise they haven't go away with it.

8 David Bentley realises "The grass isn't always greener on the other side"

9 Burnley fans realise they don't have 1 million fans and play at the Nue Camp. Sorry, typing error, won't happen.

10 Roque realises some Rovers fans still believe all the crap the press spew out, and decides to run off into the Paraguyan jungle with a bloke called Trevor from Todmorden.

Cancel number 9--------9 Rovers fans stop worrying and realise we are still a great club.

[LeChuck]

Anyway if he did leave we would get a replacement

I think most of us took that for granted when Bentley left.