[Archived] Roque Santa Cruz Thread

[philipl]

David Speedie? Simon Garner? Mike Newell? Admittedly we had money to go out and replace these players.

You don't understand the question.

Those three were effectively all retirees when they were sold- I am talking about flogging the likes of Bentley, Bellamy, Duff, Shearer etc in their prime for big money.

[Stuart]

Yes phillip it will be dangerous selling roque but imo it is a gamble we have to take,mcarthy and roberts are playing well and the sale of santa cruz will enable us to strengthen other areas such as right wing,centre mid,and full back.What happens if we keep cruz and his injury problems continue?

What happens if we sell him and McCarthy gets injured... Just a thought.

You don't understand the question.

Those three were effectively all retirees when they were sold- I am talking about flogging the likes of Bentley, Bellamy, Duff, Shearer etc in their prime for big money.

Fair enough. Although I think we replaced Bellamy reasonably well.

[islander200]

What happens if we sell him and McCarthy gets injured... Just a thought.

If he does go i would also expect another striker to be signed

[philipl]

Yes phillip it will be dangerous selling roque but imo it is a gamble we have to take,mcarthy and roberts are playing well and the sale of santa cruz will enable us to strengthen other areas such as right wing,centre mid,and full back.What happens if we keep cruz and his injury problems continue?

And the list of good Premier League players available to be transferred in this window and would come to Rovers and whose combined wages would come to £60k per week in those positions is:

nobody

nobody

and nobody

[John]

And the list of good Premier League players available to be transferred in this window and would come to Rovers

Agree - I just think it is very difficult to buy players who can come in and perform straight away. That is what we need, or there is no point.

Sam said it himself.

[islander200]

And the list of good Premier League players available to be transferred in this window and would come to Rovers and whose combined wages would come to £60k per week in those positions is:

nobody

nobody

and nobody

Philip i think santa cruz is a brilliant player but he clearly wants to leave and 18 million is too good a deal for our club to reject,and there are players out their that would join and would improve our team.Santa cruz has done nothing for us this season.It is up to sam to find the right players to improve us and his previous record at bolton gives me confidence in him.I think it is just as big a gamble to keep santa cruz and pray that he stays fit.

[philipl]

But it is patently obvious that RSC leaving will leave the club much weaker.

[islander200]

Agree - I just think it is very difficult to buy players who can come in and perform straight away. That is what we need, or there is no point.

Sam said it himself.

Yes it will be difficult to buy proven quality,but lets not forget the last time we were in this mess sparky bought nelson and mokoena not household names but they were instrumental in keeping us up.

[Stuart]

I've gone backwards and forwards about the Roque situation. I was very much against Ince selling Roque but I have a lot more confidence that Sam would be able to do the business needed to replace him. From where we were under Hughes, we have now fallen a long way back and it's definitely a rebuilding job. This season's target is to stay up. Next season's is (hopefully) to consolidate and the year after move forward. I guess this fits in well with negotiations for Sam's next contract.

For me Santa Cruz is...

- a luxury right now

- not performing this season, albeit under Ince and co's regime

- injury prone

- worth more to us as cash, providing the money is made available to Sam

- not sticking by Rovers in a time of need (and won't even just keep his mouth shut)

If Sam's prerequisite for taking the job was that Santa Cruz wouldn't be sold then I'd be very surprised and I imagine that Williams assured Sam that it would be Sam's decision alone. Based on that, let Sam get on with it. As Islander200 mentioned, we would need to replace him. Perhaps Diouf (yuck) could do what Sam needs at this moment in time but a striker who doesn't want to be here - or even one who's head has been turned won't help our cause. McCarthy last year is a prime example but we got away with it because we had Roque and weren't struggling at the wrong end of the table.

[John]

Yes it will be difficult to buy proven quality,but lets not forget the last time we were in this mess sparky bought nelson and mokoena not household names but they were instrumental in keeping us up.

Times have changed though with regards to the transfer market, rabbits being pulled out of the hat can only be sustainable for so long.

[islander200]

But it is patently obvious that RSC leaving will leave the club much weaker.

18 million to spend on new recruits would leave us in a stronger position.Rsc of last season i would keep but there is no bentley providing the ammo,his injury problems have resurfaced and he wants to leave.They are 3 very good reasons why selling cruz would be the best option.

[den]

18 million to spend on new recruits would leave us in a stronger position.

That was exactly the argument put forward by some people, when Bentley went.

[S15]

That was exactly the argument put forward by some people, when Bentley went.

Myself included.

However, I must say, as with the Friedel situation I was a fool to believe so.

This IMO is a different situation, and more similar to the summer we could have sold McCarthy. Bentley was a first team regular for the best part of three years, and was rarely injured, therefore he earnt his tag as a key player.

Santa Cruz on the other hand, like McCarthy has done nothing beyond his first season, and all of a sudden he has begun to rediscover his lust for the treatment table. If we could turn back time, we would all sell McCarthy to Chelsea for the £10m-£15m quoted at the time. I believe if we keep Santa Cruz, assuming we stay up, we could be saying the same in 12 months.

It is vital though that the board give Sam a hefty amount of any Santa Cruz cash to strengthen the squad, otherwise we can wave goodbye to the top flight once and for all.

[islander200]

That was exactly the argument put forward by some people, when Bentley went.

i have given my reasons why i would sell santa cruz

[T4E]

Myself included.

However, I must say, as with the Friedel situation I was a fool to believe so.

This IMO is a different situation, and more similar to the summer we could have sold McCarthy. Bentley was a first team regular for the best part of three years, and was rarely injured, therefore he earnt his tag as a key player.

Santa Cruz on the other hand, like McCarthy has done nothing beyond his first season, and all of a sudden he has begun to rediscover his lust for the treatment table. If we could turn back time, we would all sell McCarthy to Chelsea for the £10m-£15m quoted at the time. I believe if we keep Santa Cruz, assuming we stay up, we could be saying the same in 12 months.

It is vital though that the board give Sam a hefty amount of any Santa Cruz cash to strengthen the squad, otherwise we can wave goodbye to the top flight once and for all.

This post illustrates perfectly the differences between selling Bentley and Santa, and the comparison with McCarthy is spot on.

I'd be surprised if Santa ever becomes worth more than £18m while he's with us, which means now is the time to sell.

[S15]

I thought I better get a decent semi serious post in before New Year and the window opens...

..And the Amo gags start.

[dingles staying down 4ever]

This post illustrates perfectly the differences between selling Bentley and Santa, and the comparison with McCarthy is spot on.

I'd be surprised if Santa ever becomes worth more than £18m while he's with us, which means now is the time to sell.

Tend to agree although we do need cover for forwards before we sell him.

[bigbrandjohn]

Santa himself wants to go , I dont want to analyze his motives. Thanks for last season Hughesie and Roque and thanks for the 18 million now. It aint a fire sale,it is a great price for a player in these times. We need the money,Benni and Roberts are beginning to click and we need a full back and a midfielder and a winger. Let Oooohya go as well and add to the kitty.

My belief is that the City dream will crash for Hughes and Roque may find himself worse off but thats his problem.

[Parsonblue]

18 million to spend on new recruits would leave us in a stronger position.Rsc of last season i would keep but there is no bentley providing the ammo,his injury problems have resurfaced and he wants to leave.They are 3 very good reasons why selling cruz would be the best option.

You are assuming that the money received for Roque would be given to Sam to spend. I would suggest that this is very unlikely. If we were to lose this particular relegation battle we would need all the money we can lay our hands on for next season. I doubt that the board would sanction such a massive gamble with resources in case we went down. In spite of the recovery under Sam, the fact remains that we are still one of the favourites to go down. The directors have to plan for such a situation even though they hope it can be avoided.

If we keep Roque and can buy a couple of creative players, for very little money, in January, we might just score enough goals to keep us up. Sell Roque in the summer if he wants to go and there are buyers for him but at the moment we need him. Look at how Nelsen, Samba, McCarthy and Pedersen have improved under Sam. If he can get the best out of Roque it can only enhance our chances of survival.

[den]

I can't come to a conclusion on whether we should sell Rocky - or not. There are too many unknowns on this one.

On the one hand, as I've said many times selling your best players only leads you in one direction - downhill. Philip mentions Fred Pickering and Shearer as examples. Rocky isn't a Fred or an Alan though, is he! He's certainly a very good player but he's not in the class of either of the others mentioned.

On the other hand, sell Rocky and see injuries to either Benni or Roberts and we're back to being a team that can't score goals again. So, sell Rocky and we need some of that cash to find a replacement. That's one of the unknowns, where do we find another striker?

If I had to decide, I would go with keeping Rocky and trying to find others that can come in and add quality to the squad we already have. A right winger who could provide a good cross would go a long way to keeping us in this league - just for starters.

I'll leave this one to Sam. The only thing I would add, is DON'T sell Rocky without a replacement lined up first.

[philipl]

This post illustrates perfectly the differences between selling Bentley and Santa, and the comparison with McCarthy is spot on.

I'd be surprised if Santa ever becomes worth more than £18m while he's with us, which means now is the time to sell.

There are reasons to expect that you are wrong.

Ince and his cronies were totally out of their depth running a Premier League football team so they were way over their heads in handling a centre forward who is the pin-up boy of the country currently running away with the South American World Cup Qualifiers.

It is very obvious that RSC has been carrying injuries that required a period of complete rest that Ince didn't give him and Sam now is giving to him.

Let's face it, Benni and Jason looked totally lost with zero supply worthy of the name when Ince was in charge. Yet in three Sam games they have had enough good quality supply to have come out on top with goal-bound attempts in every one of the 3 games, scored 5 between them and Jason has collected at least three mind numbing misses for his scrap book to show the grandchildren one day.

If Sam has done that for Benni and Jason, just imagine what he might do for a fully fit Roque.

[thenodrog]

Santa himself wants to go , I dont want to analyze his motives. Thanks for last season Hughesie and Roque and thanks for the 18 million now. It aint a fire sale,it is a great price for a player in these times. We need the money,Benni and Roberts are beginning to click and we need a full back and a midfielder and a winger. Let Oooohya go as well and add to the kitty.

If RSC goes we'll need another striker too.

[deloreanwfn]

There are reasons to expect that you are wrong.

Ince and his cronies were totally out of their depth running a Premier League football team so they were way over their heads in handling a centre forward who is the pin-up boy of the country currently running away with the South American World Cup Qualifiers.

It is very obvious that RSC has been carrying injuries that required a period of complete rest that Ince didn't give him and Sam now is giving to him.

Let's face it, Benni and Jason looked totally lost with zero supply worthy of the name when Ince was in charge. Yet in three Sam games they have had enough good quality supply to have come out on top with goal-bound attempts in every one of the 3 games, scored 5 between them and Jason has collected at least three mind numbing misses for his scrap book to show the grandchildren one day.

If Sam has done that for Benni and Jason, just imagine what he might do for a fully fit Roque.

Correct

[T4E]

There are reasons to expect that you are wrong.

Ince and his cronies were totally out of their depth running a Premier League football team so they were way over their heads in handling a centre forward who is the pin-up boy of the country currently running away with the South American World Cup Qualifiers.

It is very obvious that RSC has been carrying injuries that required a period of complete rest that Ince didn't give him and Sam now is giving to him.

Let's face it, Benni and Jason looked totally lost with zero supply worthy of the name when Ince was in charge. Yet in three Sam games they have had enough good quality supply to have come out on top with goal-bound attempts in every one of the 3 games, scored 5 between them and Jason has collected at least three mind numbing misses for his scrap book to show the grandchildren one day.

If Sam has done that for Benni and Jason, just imagine what he might do for a fully fit Roque.

Agree with all of this Phil. I said his value "with us" was maxed out at £18m - by this I mean he has reached his optimum value as a Rovers player. If RSC was a Spurs player (for example) we'd be talking about £25m+. Unfortunately all Rovers players seem to have a ceiling value because they play for us, I think RSC has reached his.

I would sell on the condition that Sam gets 75% of the money minimum. I want to see Sam build a side, we're in a fortunate position that he may be able to do this fairly early in his reign. I have total trust in him to sell RSC and reinvest to make us stronger. Just hope the board doesn't let him down.

[den]

I would sell on the condition that Sam gets 75% of the money minimum. I want to see Sam build a side, we're in a fortunate position that he may be able to do this fairly early in his reign. I have total trust in him to sell RSC and reinvest to make us stronger. Just hope the board doesn't let him down.

The only drawback with this Toogs, is that no matter how much money is available to Sam, because of our league position we might struggle to bring in good players. Another reason why it might be wiser, at this moment in time, to keep hold.