[Archived] Pre-season Friendlies

[DingleBaiter]

only lost Mark Hughes but also one of the most qualified and highly rated young management teams in Europe.

This criticism has been repeated many times, always without facts. Facts & evidence support arguments & opinions, not pithy phases like these.

Would you care to elaborate maybe? Exactly which 'qualifications' (other than the obvious one with Ince) did they have, why not list them to embellish your argument?

For instance, I don't see Ferguson going for Hitchcock, therefore that suggests Steele has more going for him. Eddie N had some background under Wenger, Bowen at Birmingham, but once we take the Wales stuff out, I'm not aware of much else in terms of experience that stood out.

Clearly, you're aware of all their qualifications and could list them, perhaps in a comparison to their incumbent at Ewood?

Also, don't forget the obvious fact that the whole team LEFT, and if you expected a BETTER team to replace them, do you think that's realistic? Even to expect a SIMILAR standard arguably is naive. When the Taffia came in, I didn't see the rush of credibility and support saying they were better than Souness's team for example. I would suggest the points you make cover up your anti-Ince bias, and you're trying to skew an absence of facts.

Who rated the management team so highly then, especially throughout Europe? I didn't see any evidence of interest in them outside of the Prem.

For the record, I think Hughes was the best manager we'd had in my time, & had an excellent backroom staff. Only an idiot would try to argue they wouldn't be missed.

However, to embellish an argument without establishing facts and repeat stock phrases like you have will always be open to cross-examination.

Sadly, a lot of Rovers fans can't think for themselves and are easily led. I'm not saying you're one, but as there already is a lot of anti-Ince sentiment, those that have some intelligence & credibility have a responsibility to those that don't.

However, I'm also concerned about a few factors, but as far as I'm aware he's still the manager, and it is what it is; we support the club, not individuals, and therefore have to allow him some time to actually vindicate JW's decision, or eventually allow the naysayers to show they were right. The fact remains, whatever may happen with Ince, it's ultimately preferable in my view to McClown or 'king of the gypsies' Allardyce.

[Jan]

They all had their UEFA pro licenses. Between them I'd be surprised if the Division 4 posse had passed their SATS.

[scotchrover]

Why are you turning on me? I gave my honest opinion then and I'm sorry to say that my initial concerns appear to be gaining in credibility. I foresaw nothing in Paul Ince to suggest that he was management material and apparently my crime was in saying so on an internet messageboard! If you want a display of blind faith then sorry but I'm not your man.

I think in the above quotation that I suggested that the club should discreetly prepare for the worst case scenario and I stand by that. You obviously in times of concern prefer to stick your head up your own ar.... err in the sand Mr Creosote and simply hope for the best. When in a position of control and responsibility like JW it's wise to bear in mind that everybody makes mistakes no matter who they are (... it's why they put rubbers on the end of pencils after all .... ), sh1t does happen and frequently time is of the essence! JW has only to phone Gartside for confirmation of that. I'm sure Gartside would confirm in hindsight that failing to admit to his mistake and keeping Little sam till Christmas would have seen Bolton relegated.

You are a joke. By saying that where going to get relegated before the seasons even started.

Whats worse your comparing Little Sam at Bolton last year to Paul Ince this season. The which hasn't thats even begun yet.

The difference is little sam had no managerial expeririance and Paul Ince has.

There may be problems at the club at the momment as i've wrote in my post on page 48 but iam sure Mr Ince has more than enough quality tactical ideas to ensure that we finnish in the top 10 and get to at least 1 cup quarter final.

[Darth Paul]

Why are you turning on me? I gave my honest opinion then and I'm sorry to say that my initial concerns appear to be gaining in credibility. I foresaw nothing in Paul Ince to suggest that he was management material and apparently my crime was in saying so on an internet messageboard! If you want a display of blind faith then sorry but I'm not your man.

I think in the above quotation that I suggested that the club should discreetly prepare for the worst case scenario and I stand by that. You obviously in times of concern prefer to stick your head up your own ar.... err in the sand Mr Creosote and simply hope for the best. When in a position of control and responsibility like JW it's wise to bear in mind that everybody makes mistakes no matter who they are (... it's why they put rubbers on the end of pencils after all .... ), sh1t does happen and frequently time is of the essence! JW has only to phone Gartside for confirmation of that. I'm sure Gartside would confirm in hindsight that failing to admit to his mistake and keeping Little sam till Christmas would have seen Bolton relegated.

It isn't a crime to say it, but to repeat it over and over, ad naseum, on a supporters messageboard does make me wonder what your motives are.

[DingleBaiter]

They all had their UEFA pro licenses. Between them I'd be surprised if the Division 4 posse had passed their SATS.

So, all four of them had the Pro licence? I'm sorry - please don't take this personally Jan (or OP) - but I want to see the evidence, facts etc. not just rumours, or second-hand information, as my information level on this point is less than I'd like. For instance, AFAIA Knox also has the Pro licence whilst Hitchcock & Bowen weren't at the pro level.

As it stands, it seems to me something folk are using this line to add credibility to their bias. Even if it's proved our previous team were the most highly qualified four ever in Premiership history, it doesn't follow they're the best at the job. Like the old line about the most intelligent graduates not being the best vocationally.

In asking for this evidence, I'm not disagreeing with the relative teams being better or worse than each other. I'm simply asking for proof of the argument, set out on an objective level rather than abjective.

IMO, the real technical & tactical brains of the 4 was Eddie N - as an ex-goalkeeper to be a 'proper' (as opposed to just GK) coach he must have something in his locker, especially working under the Wenger regime for so long. On a simplistic arbitrary level, he was the most involved on a matchday with plays, subs, speaking to players etc. Compare & contrast with yesterday; Ince wasn't on bench until second half - which alarmingly was when the rot set in - but Matthias (sp?) seemed to be the most involved, with Ince turning to Knox behind the dugout a few times. It's clearly the case, due to experience, qualifications but also the management style of Ince, that he will defer to his staff, but ultimately he will live or die by what they do achieve (or not), rather than their comparison to previous staff.

[thenodrog]

You are a joke. By saying that where going to get relegated before the seasons even started.

Whats worse your comparing Little Sam at Bolton last year to Paul Ince this season. The which hasn't thats even begun yet.

The difference is little sam had no managerial expeririance and Paul Ince has.

There may be problems at the club at the momment as i've wrote in my post on page 48 but iam sure Mr Ince has more than enough quality tactical ideas to ensure that we finnish in the top 10 and get to at least 1 cup quarter final.

I'm simply not dismissing the possibility of a relegation battle next season. Blind faith and ignorance is not my 'strongpoint' scotchrover.

Oh and we wont finish top 10 and based on our recent results over the last 12 months the cup quarter final will only happen as long as we avoid anybody from the top 2 Divisions.

[RevidgeBlue]

They all had their UEFA pro licenses. Between them I'd be surprised if the Division 4 posse had passed their SATS.

To the best of my knowledge, the coaching badges aren't something you can fail, you just have to sit through a specified number of hours.

So whether they're the be all and end all in indicating whether someone can be a successful manager, I would rather doubt.

[DingleBaiter]

To the best of my knowledge, the coaching badges aren't something you can fail, you just have to sit through a specified number of hours.

So whether they're the be all and end all in indicating whether someone can be a successful manager, I would rather doubt.

Agreed - God knows what Shankly, Stein, Dalglish, Ferguson, Clough et al did before the advent of the UEFA badge ..... It's kinda like when folk in the traditional 'manager' role as we know it, prefer to call themselves 'coaches'. As I see it, the best 'managers' (Ferguson & Wenger for instance) these days are the ones that know & trust their staff enough to delegate, and hardly get involved in the day-to-day running on the club.

BTW, back to qualifications of the Taffia, clearly that's why Hughes bombed out Tony Parkes, as he obviously didn't have the qualifications to match his high-flyers. There was me thinking it was because he didn't want to be undermined by an archaic heirloom.

Ince prefers to play and take an active part in training, scaring the players with his style of play, and let the 'coaches' run training it seems. Like Dalglish's reign, Harford was a massive part in the success on a coaching level, but seemed to struggle with the man-management aspect. Sometimes this is down to dynamics, most coaches are 'mates' with the players and the manager still maintains the distance/seniority.

Bottom line is everyone will do it their way, and as long as it works, who cares? IF it doesn't, then come back & say 'I told you so'....

[roversmum]

Ince wasn't on bench until second half - which alarmingly was when the rot set in - but Matthias (sp?) seemed to be the most involved, with Ince turning to Knox behind the dugout a few times.

As one who sits close to the bench, Hughes often 'turned' to Eddie or Mark Bowen during a match, and they were often on the touchlines shouting instructions to the players.

[Majiball]

To the best of my knowledge, the coaching badges aren't something you can fail, you just have to sit through a specified number of hours.

So whether they're the be all and end all in indicating whether someone can be a successful manager, I would rather doubt.

Sorry mate you can fail, you don't just sit there and then pass. Generally you spend a week being run through the areas that are being covered practice sessions, do work in the classroom and take it onto the pitch. With assesors, guiding your coachin technique and advising over what they feel is the better option to "Coach".

These courses cost thousands of pounds to do, but if you are failed you are allowed to go back and try again, due to the costs involved. I believe as long as it within one year of your final assesment your allowed another assesment.

The point you have to realise is that if you've played at a top level day in day out, you should already know what they are trying to teach you.

And before you ask I have seen people fail there courses/assesments.

[Majiball]

So, all four of them had the Pro licence? I'm sorry - please don't take this personally Jan (or OP) - but I want to see the evidence, facts etc. not just rumours, or second-hand information, as my information level on this point is less than I'd like. For instance, AFAIA Knox also has the Pro licence whilst Hitchcock & Bowen weren't at the pro level.

As it stands, it seems to me something folk are using this line to add credibility to their bias. Even if it's proved our previous team were the most highly qualified four ever in Premiership history, it doesn't follow they're the best at the job. Like the old line about the most intelligent graduates not being the best vocationally.

In asking for this evidence, I'm not disagreeing with the relative teams being better or worse than each other. I'm simply asking for proof of the argument, set out on an objective level rather than abjective.

IMO, the real technical & tactical brains of the 4 was Eddie N - as an ex-goalkeeper to be a 'proper' (as opposed to just GK) coach he must have something in his locker, especially working under the Wenger regime for so long. On a simplistic arbitrary level, he was the most involved on a matchday with plays, subs, speaking to players etc. Compare & contrast with yesterday; Ince wasn't on bench until second half - which alarmingly was when the rot set in - but Matthias (sp?) seemed to be the most involved, with Ince turning to Knox behind the dugout a few times. It's clearly the case, due to experience, qualifications but also the management style of Ince, that he will defer to his staff, but ultimately he will live or die by what they do achieve (or not), rather than their comparison to previous staff.

Ok firstly its not about qualifications when you get to the top level pretty much everyone has the same badges, the man influencing factor is as on the pitch ability. Now football is a simple game you go as far as your ability can take you, if your good you get to the top, simple. If your ability drops or you don't look to continually develop your self you fall back down, just like a player. Now I like others have reservations over the coaches looking after our team, not down to what badge they have but down to what ability they have.

Mark Bowen - Aided hughes in achieving wales most successful modern day era team. He was also assistant to Bruce during his time at the brum, its worth noting that brum did not finish lower than 13th during Bowen's time there. Bruce was furious if you remember when Bowen left to join us. After he left Black replaced him, Birmingham finished 13th the went down, alot of people did not consider this co-incidence.

Eddie N - The fact he was at Arsenal says it all really, Wenger is the ultimate student of the game. I would put money on the fact that there is not one coach at the club who is not considered to be top draw. Wenger is no fool and the fact Eddie was working there says enough really.

Now the new boys, and my grievance, which I will explain:

Ray Mathias - 62 years old, hes been coaching for 25 years at least (I'm not being ageist). Now as I stated before football is the type of industry where ability takes you up the ladder. He's been coaching for 25 years but never in the top flight why? I can't answer that none of us can but you have to wander. Now I completely understand why he here, Ince needs a man he can trust, simple.

Archie Knox - We were promised a top experienced coach with a strong prem background. He worked with fergie who holds him as a friend till 1991, then he was with smith at Rangers during there most successful modern day era. After that Everton again with smith mid table nothing special and he left in 1998 (ten years ago). After this he went to Livingston Millwall etc spending 9 years nowhere near the top, while at the same time the top level of football changed drastically on a coaching level, sports science came in methods where changed, attitudes, nutrition really the top flight has dramatically developed. Knox went to Bolton last year, I don't need to comment really. Now my last part is rumour based but has some merit because its the second time we've heard these such rumours now, but they are just that rumours. I remember reading that Bolton's players, felt Knox's methods where dated, we have similar rumours floating about in reference to us now. True or not I don't know but as its the second time these such rumours have come about you have to wander. Also do not forget the second Bolton where safe Knox was out the door, he spent enough time to build up a relationship with Megson, trust if you like but no he was drop kicked the second Gary could.

Make your own mind up but you asked for some objectivity.

They need to be given time to prove they are up to the task, I do not disagree, but impressing in an interview is one thing impressing in the job another.

[Manchester Blue]

Sorry mate you can fail, you don't just sit there and then pass. Generally you spend a week being run through the areas that are being covered practice sessions, do work in the classroom and take it onto the pitch. With assesors, guiding your coachin technique and advising over what they feel is the better option to "Coach".

These courses cost thousands of pounds to do, but if you are failed you are allowed to go back and try again, due to the costs involved. I believe as long as it within one year of your final assesment your allowed another assesment.

The point you have to realise is that if you've played at a top level day in day out, you should already know what they are trying to teach you.

And before you ask I have seen people fail there courses/assesments.

Not disagreeing with what you say, however I have couple of mates who are involved in coaching at various levels and they have told of a number of tales of well known ex-pros who have failed their course and then mysteriously passing a few weeks later when there was no possibility in the timescales that they could have retaken the course. I think these courses are very useful are the lower scale but there is a lot of scepticism at a higher level and many feel that managers are simply getting the qualifications but not learning anything at all.

[vintageadidas]

Was at the game yesterday - yes, it is only a friendly but i cannot see the point of playing Mokoena in defence when he is dire in that position. Few points made by myself and fans i was sat around:

I hope ince is not going to be a headset manager from the stands.

Mokoena is the worst player at the club.

Judge played pretty well as did derbyshire.

Our midfield is shocking, no creativity or pace.

Robinson looks tiny compared to brad and is poor at coming for crosses / corners.

We should sign michael kightly.

[thenodrog]

Not disagreeing with what you say, however I have couple of mates who are involved in coaching at various levels and they have told of a number of tales of well known ex-pros who have failed their course and then mysteriously passing a few weeks later when there was no possibility in the timescales that they could have retaken the course. I think these courses are very useful are the lower scale but there is a lot of scepticism at a higher level and many feel that managers are simply getting the qualifications but not learning anything at all.

These things are like MoT's. "30 years ago the MoT was a piece of cake awarded without hardly a cursory glance or a tyre kick, but every revision of the requirements have seen them get tougher. I suppose the coaching qualifications will do likewise.

My Dad never had to take a driving test. In his early yrears it was not a requirement. Obviously merely passing a driving test does not make a top driver but who thinks we should go back to the 30's and not have them?

[DingleBaiter]

They need to be given time to prove they are up to the task, I do not disagree, but impressing in an interview is one thing impressing in the job another.

Good post Maji - apart from admitting you listen to rumours (joke!)

I'm not debating the merits of either 'team', just awaiting for evidence of qualification (no pun intended) to the comment about the Taffia being (paraphrasing here) one of the most highly qualified and rated young management teams in Europe....

I'm looking for proof of the taffia's qualifications that made them so highly qualified (in Europe no less). Also how do we KNOW they were so highly rated? Unless I'm proven wrong, I didn't see the countries we all hold up as bastions of good coaching, the top sides, the top names in the game casting envious glances at Ewood. I'm looking for cold, hard evidence of this claim - not opinions, not wikis, not fluff, not what their experience was. Seems to be the point the OP made is otherwise just opinion, as the argument does not work conversely. I certainly can't recall a mass swooning over them when they arrived for the same reasons? But now they've gone it's being used as a cheap shot at the Ince team methinks.

"Just the facts, ma'am" - otherwise it's another case of 'Modern Jackass'.........

[thenodrog]

I hope ince is not going to be a headset manager from the stands.

Why do you say that? It makes perfect sense to me to be up in the stands on or about the half way line. It's easily the best place to view the opposition tactics from. Given that the worst is 1st row back directly behind the goals then sat in a dug-out is between the two.

[Wolves_Rover]

I was at the game yesterday, some observations

1. I though Robinson had a decent game - not much he could do about the goals really. Made a couple of good stops, 1 for which he got no credit for as a goal kick was given

2. Tugay is on his absolute last legs, however looked good in the 1st half. We have nobody to fill his boots when he comes off though.

3. We need a right back sooner rather than later

4. We should sign Michael Kightly now.

5. Cruz is easily our best player now.

6. Fowler and McCarthy looked shocking, and rather portly.

[Plastic Head]

Everyone chill. If we finish 17th it won't be a total disaster...we are going through an inevitable re-build.

If we don't finish above Hull and Stoke we may end up in League One in 2 years.

And if you look at the West Brom team you wouldn't swap any of theirs for ours.

Carson, Hoefkens, Barnett, Clement, Robinson, Millar, Morrison, Greening, Kim, Beattie, Bednar.

[Majiball]

Why do you say that? It makes perfect sense to me to be up in the stands on or about the half way line. It's easily the best place to view the opposition tactics from. Given that the worst is 1st row back directly behind the goals then sat in a dug-out is between the two.

Dead right, you can gain a better view of whats going on, just look at the highlights sky showed of the goals. The angle makes it hard to see exactly what has gone on. I've seen scaffolding towers at training grounds just for this purpose, view point.

[ultrablue]

I was at the game yesterday, some observations

2. Tugay is on his absolute last legs, however looked good in the 1st half. We have nobody to fill his boots when he comes off though.

Ince has been trying to sort our lack of creativity, Pina might do the trick in the hole behind Santa Cruz.

Bresciano would be a good signing here.

If we are honest Reid and Dunn are definitely replacable, it just depends who we can attract now with what seems like the lowest ebb of morale around the club for a while - well at least on this board!

[vintageadidas]

Yes, all the successful managers like Ferguson, Mourinhio, Wenger et al all sit in the stands watching dont they?. However, the great sammy lee did sit in the stands.

[S15]

Pina might do the trick in the hole behind Santa Cruz.

Oh yeah?? Is that supposed to increase season ticket sales??!

[Majiball]

Ince has been trying to sort our lack of creativity, Pina might do the trick in the hole behind Santa Cruz.

Bresciano would be a good signing here.

If we are honest Reid and Dunn are definitely replacable, it just depends who we can attract now with what seems like the lowest ebb of morale around the club for a while - well at least on this board!

One thing we all have to remember is Europe (we have to maintain this ambition and hope) 8 homegrown players 4 from your club, Dunn fits into the later. How many of our players do, yes we could fill the places with kids, but that means keeping them for the season, I would like to see some of our kids given first team oppurtunitys elsewhere to aid there development.

Derb's and Dunn are our only two 1st teamers that fit into this. Reid, Robbo, Warnock fall into the other. This is surely something Ince is taking into consideration with some of his signings.

Just want to add though with vreference to yesterday's game, why is Ince still tinkering with it being the penultimate game of pre-season I would have thought he would have played ( as much as injuries and absence would permit) his 1st 11. I expect to see it againast Breda but by playing it at wolves surely he would have had an oppurtunity to tinker with areas he felt we lacked in and then given it another dry run?

[ultrablue]

True shillito but we have to face facts - Hughes managed to make two big signings that excited us at the time - McCarthy and Santa Cruz. This was exceptional business and is certainly not the norm.

Rovers have to take chances and sign relative unknown players. I mean look at the price you have to pay for a boring, middle of the road striker like Andy Johnson. Stupid money.

We all hope Ince can pull an amazing out of the bag of course, but the reality is that Rovers fans have to have a little faith at the start of the season.

[S15]

True shillito but we have to face facts - Hughes managed to make two big signings that excited us at the time - McCarthy and Santa Cruz. This was exceptional business and is certainly not the norm.

Rovers have to take chances and sign relative unknown players. I mean look at the price you have to pay for a boring, middle of the road striker like Andy Johnson. Stupid money.

We all hope Ince can pull an amazing out of the bag of course, but the reality is that Rovers fans have to have a little faith at the start of the season.

Sorry, my post had no other intention but to create inappropiate inuendo.