[Archived] Nickos (newer) Thread

[gumboots]

Bentley doesn't want to play for us. To keep him means to keep him against his will. This is a bad idea. Look at McCarthy last season.

If we get a decent price it is worth letting him go. For the good of the dressing room, for the future of the club. By holding on to him we only reduce his value. Move on.

Read carefully. I didn't say don't get rid. But to decide to do it regardless of what's out there is to weaken your own hand. You need to play the bargaining game well which is all I've ever said. I know we can't force players to stay and expect them to automatically fall over and say "I was wrong all along. I have this great burning desire to play for Rovers" But there are too many on here saying we should actively seek to sell. that's very different. By all means look around, make plans but make it vey hard work for the player's agent and the buying club.

[den]

That logic is completely ridiculous!

Cruz was touring Europe for 3.5m, lots of people looked at him, including Man City. THey didn't buy him because based on his awful season for Bayern Munich they thought he was finished as a player.

So by your logic Cruz is an awful player who could never be decent because we were the only team who wanted to buy him!

Mental.

Man City didn't buy him because they thought he was finished as a player? Evidence for that is.......?

Mental.

[socngill]

Bentley doesn't want to play for us. To keep him means to keep him against his will. This is a bad idea. Look at McCarthy last season.

If we get a decent price it is worth letting him go. For the good of the dressing room, for the future of the club. By holding on to him we only reduce his value. Move on.

Don't agree with you there. He has thre years left, I can't see his value getting knocked when that drops to 2. As for Bentley throwing his toys out of the pram and not performing he won't do that. As soon as he does that he can kiss goodbye to his England career. I really can't see Capello picking him if he isn't performing for his club and acting like a spoilt child.

As for the dressing room, I think we have enough people in there to put Bentley in his place

[den]

Read carefully. I didn't say don't get rid. But to decide to do it regardless of what's out there is to weaken your own hand. You need to play the bargaining game well which is all I've ever said. I know we can't force players to stay and expect them to automatically fall over and say "I was wrong all along. I have this great burning desire to play for Rovers" But there are too many on here saying we should actively seek to sell. that's very different. By all means look around, make plans but make it vey hard work for the player's agent and the buying club.

Correct Gumboots.

[Flopsy]

Man City didn't buy him because they thought he was finished as a player? Evidence for that is.......?

about 1 goal in five years

[Guest Kamy100]

The effects of it on a bunch of soft mollycoddled overpaid primadonnas might be quite detrimental and have them all heading for the door!!

On a serious note, I think the first few days of pre-season are vital. Ince has to quickly gain the respect of the players and I don't think he'll do that by unleashing army style fitness exercises on them.

Past and present players have indicated that training under Mark Hughes and his team was exceptional and they loved it. Ince and his mob have a tough job to follow - so the appointment of the right 1st team coach is absolutely critical IMO.

Completely agree, the players will be wanting to see what Ince has to offer. They have been used to high standard, well though out training schedules and preparation under Hughes, if Ince can't match those expectations then it may seem to the players that it is a backwards step.

[joey_big_nose]

You think he was a crap player that our coaches made into a top player? Check his international record with Paraguay and ask yourself why would a club like Bayern Munich keep hold of him for 8 years.

Again flawed logic. On that basis we should bust our gut to buy Kewell.

THe fact of the matter is Ince needs to look at Lennon and decide whether he is a player he can improve and turn into a real force. We cannot afford established quality players. No one in our squad was an established quality player when we signed them.

The issue here is really that I and a number of other posters feels Lennon in the right hands - like Bentley like Cruz like McCarthy - can be an extremely good player. You feel that Lennon is simply a bad player who cannot improve. I feel that the way Spurs have used him has majorly effected how well he has been able to perform. I think the stability of Rovers alongside good coaching and tactics sympatheticc to his style will have a huge positive effect on him.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. But I think Ince will snap their hands off if the offer is genuine and Lennon does want to come to Rovers.

Jan- That is a good point I completely agree with. I am praying Ince has Hughes' ability to get the most out of players.

[Flopsy]

Man City didn't buy him because they thought he was finished as a player? Evidence for that is.......?

Mental.

Found it, the Spaghetti Monster bless The Guardian

Article

Terrible. Rubbish. Disgraceful. Useless. Crap. Ridiculous. Hopeless. Bloody awful. It was, in other words, just another day at the office for Roque Santa Cruz. In a few years, when people might still wonder what exactly happened to Germany's biggest club in 2006-07, one can simply point to the fact that the Paraguayan striker - the term is used very loosely here, he's scored zero in 22 this season, and a grand total of 29 in his seven previous seasons in Munich - was actually allowed to start three very important matches in a row. Santa Cruz, once a cult hero among fans, has elevated apathy to an art form and taken meekness to new, unprecedented levels. Against Milan and Leverkusen, the 25-year-old's performances were so infuriatingly inept that he was booed off the pitch in the Allianz Arena by the 66,000 crowd.

[den]

Found it, the Spaghetti Monster bless The Guardian

Article

I think you will find that the truth is that Man City did rate Santa Cruz, otherwise they wouldn't have wasted their time talking to his agent. They had the money available to bring in more expensive players, but it didn't work.

Santa Cruz isn't a good player because Mark Bowen turned him into a better player. Santa Cruz always had the technique, - maybe it wasn't being used properly, but he had the ability. You can't seriously argue with that?

That's the difference with Lennon, he doesn't have that technique, he doesn't have an end product. If this can be brought out in everyone with good coaching and plenty of practice, then what happened to Keith Gillespie's final ball? and if it can only be brought out in certain players, why should Lennon be one of them? and if we can't guarantee that Lennon will do the job for us, why bother with him?

[Fife Rover]

I have to say it worries me greatly that Ince is bringing what seems to be everything from the Mk Dons.

I understand the need to surround yourself with people you trust, but we have some big players who will need to be 'managed'.

I am going to give Ince my support, but he needs to do more than simply stick everything that was successful at Mk Dons in a removal van and ship it to Ewood.

.....however Hughes did similar with his team and Savage and Bellamy.

Maybe that is what they have all learned from studying under one of the great masters at OT?

[RibbleValleyRover]

The issue here is really that I and a number of other posters feels Lennon in the right hands - like Bentley like Cruz like McCarthy - can be an extremely good player.

Right hands? He's been playing since his early teens for Leeds and Spurs, both clubs with some of the best coaching setups around. He has shown no improvement whatsoever in terms of end product.

I cannot understand why anyone would swap Bentley for Lennon. Pace would be nice, but i want a decent level of service to my strikers from a winger. Something which Lennon has proven over numerous years he cannot do.

[Parsonblue]

Completely agree, the players will be wanting to see what Ince has to offer. They have been used to high standard, well though out training schedules and preparation under Hughes, if Ince can't match those expectations then it may seem to the players that it is a backwards step.

This is a major fear for me about Ince bringing in such a large number of people from MK Dons. They are all going to be new to the Premier League and the players have certain expectations with regard to the coaching and training schedules. I would hate for the club to step back from the hi-tech methods that Hughes employed. I would be particularly unhappy to swap our present scouting system for one that has been accustomed to finding players for the Fourth Division.

[joey_big_nose]

I think you will find that the truth is that Man City did rate Santa Cruz, otherwise they wouldn't have wasted their time talking to his agent. They had the money available to bring in more expensive players, but it didn't work.

Santa Cruz isn't a good player because Mark Bowen turned him into a better player. Santa Cruz always had the technique, - maybe it wasn't being used properly, but he had the ability. You can't seriously argue with that?

That's the difference with Lennon, he doesn't have that technique, he doesn't have an end product. If this can be brought out in everyone with good coaching and plenty of practice, then what happened to Keith Gillespie's final ball? and if it can only be brought out in certain players, why should Lennon be one of them? and if we can't guarantee that Lennon will do the job for us, why bother with him?

So basically your point is that you don't think Lennon can be a good player. Quite a lot of us think he can be. Indeed he has been in the past imo.

Not really any way to resolve this part of the argument, a basic difference of opinion, so we might as well leave it there.

So to segway sideways a bit lets look at two other things worth considering if the story is correct:

1) with the additional £10m we can go out and buy an established top quality player on top of Lennon. Say Farfan or someone like that.

2) Just because bentley is good now and worth £15m does not mean the same will be true over the coming years, even if he wanted to stay. Cases in point - Duff (1 good season at Chelsea and then massive decline), McCarthy (worth 15m last summer, about 3m now), Bellamy (arguably our best striker since Shearer. Now only completes about 30% of games for West Ham).

[joey_big_nose]

Right hands? He's been playing since his early teens for Leeds and Spurs, both clubs with some of the best coaching setups around. He has shown no improvement whatsoever in terms of end product.

I cannot understand why anyone would swap Bentley for Lennon. Pace would be nice, but i want a decent level of service to my strikers from a winger. Something which Lennon has proven over numerous years he cannot do.

Bentley was at the best youth development club in the country at Arsenal. He was shyte for them, shyte for Norwich, shyte for us for the first year he was here. And then he blossomed. Cruz played for 8 years at Munich - great coaches - didn't stop him becoming shyte for them eventually.

It's not cut and dried. A million different factors are involved : stability, type of coaching, the tactics the team use, man management. Ince will look and judge on its merits.

[Fife Rover]

This way round instead LeChuck? Sorry didnt know it mattered, although I can see your point.

It doesn't really matter Hughesy, but as Le Chuck has said already; it is a hell of a lot easier on your readers if you put the quote first , then reply to it underneath.

[modes98]

Santa Cruz isn't a good player because Mark Bowen turned him into a better player. Santa Cruz always had the technique, - maybe it wasn't being used properly, but he had the ability. You can't seriously argue with that?

I just don't think Cruz was the right type of player for the german leagues. They play more football along the ground and at a slower tempo.

The premiership has allowed him to show what he is made of, the problem is he has to keep up the high levels he has set himself, something Benni could not do!

I honestly don't think Bowen or any coach made him a better player in terms of technique. However they would have given him the confidence to play and score.

[Fife Rover]

Been looking at Ince's coaching methods & it appears he bought in sprinter Darren Campbell to assist in the running/sprinting in training when at Macclesfield & MK Dons. link to story here

http://www.mk-news.co.uk/mknews-sport/Disp...e.asp?ID=129441

Any chance Beckham could teach Lennon to cross if we got him!! what a player we'd have then!!

Better still; make it part of the deal in agreeing to letting Bentley go that he stays around just long enough to show Lennon how to cross accurately ( and MGP as well while he's at it).

[RibbleValleyRover]

Bentley was at the best youth development club in the country at Arsenal. He was shyte for them, shyte for Norwich, shyte for us for the first year he was here. And then he blossomed.

Bentley is naturally technically gifted. He showed signs at Arsenal he had the technique to become a very good player, in his case he didn't get the opportunities or game time. Lennon is gifted in terms of athletic ability, pace, acceleration etc.

If you go by the belief that you can teach a player anything, then could you honestly see Bentley obtaining the pace or acceleration of Lennon through training? At the end of the day it comes down to genetics or the presence of a natural talent. Bentley is technically gifted, Lennon is athletically gifted.

[broadsword]

How about let's not buy rubbish over-hyped players and hang onto our best players for as long as we can. Then when we can't hang onto to them any more, we actually buy someone decent to replace them with.

Clubs who cave in immediately and take some dross player in a part-x don't normally fare too well.

[den]

So basically your point is that you don't think Lennon can be a good player. Quite a lot of us think he can be. Indeed he has been in the past imo.

He got noticed as a youngster at Spurs and deserved his chance in the England team. It happens to a lot of youngsters though, that when they break through, their qualities and strengths are noticed immediately. I've seen this many a time at rovers and not just with youngsters. Eventually though, the weaknesses begin to show and Lennon's weaknesses have seen his career take a backward step. My problem is when people say that he can be taught/coached into having an end product to his game. They don't know that, they're just HOPING that will be the case. That might be worth a gamble in the lower leagues, or at a figure around one millionish in our situation, but not as a replacement for Bentley.

But yeah JBN, time to move on. We'll agree to disagree.

[DanLad]

Bentley is naturally technically gifted. He showed signs at Arsenal he had the technique to become a very good player, in his case he didn't get the opportunities or game time. Lennon is gifted in terms of athletic ability, pace, acceleration etc.

If you go by the belief that you can teach a player anything, then could you honestly see Bentley obtaining the pace or acceleration of Lennon through training? At the end of the day it comes down to genetics or the presence of a natural talent. Bentley is technically gifted, Lennon is athletically gifted.

You can train people to be a bit quicker, but not the same as if they are naturally quick. That's down to the kind of muscles they have.

Kicking a ball is different. You can teach a new technique or way to address the ball or whatever and substantially improve.

[Fife Rover]

For a guy who left his club because his wife didn't like living in Dundee, a move to Burnley may not be the wisest move

I think you might just have a point there Tugs!

[den]

You can train people to be a bit quicker, but not the same as if they are naturally quick. That's down to the kind of muscles they have.

Kicking a ball is different. You can teach a new technique or way to address the ball or whatever and substantially improve.

You can't give a player the vision needed to open up a defence though.

[DanLad]

You can't give a player the vision needed to open up a defence though.

But you can get that with experience...

[den]

But you can get that with experience...

No, that's natural ability. Bryan Douglas could always do that. You either got it or you aint.

If absolutely any skill or technique could be coached, the players would all be brilliant, wouldn't they?