[Archived] Do You Approve Of The New Manager?

[LeChuck]

In which way is Winterburn a "nomark" who "shouldn't have a place near a Premiership club"?

In coaching terms T4E is completely correct. Winterburn finished his playing career a long time ago but he hasn't attained any coaching badges since then. If he was really serious about getting in to the coaching side of things he would have taken those courses, it's simply common practise nowadays.

Ince's complete disregard for coaching qualifications is horrific really. There must be a lot of well-qualified, experienced defence coaches out there who would have been more than willing to join the club. Winterburn can't even use the Ince excuse of 'I was gaining experience through working', he just did spots of media work each week.

Other than being a half decent left-back as a player (which, let's be honest, counts for sod all), what place does Winterburn have at a Premiership club as a coach?

[T4E]

Other than being a half decent left-back as a player (which, let's be honest, counts for sod all), what place does Winterburn have at a Premiership club as a coach?

.........then ask this question for the rest of the backroom staff.

Lets get one thing straight - I am not anti Paul Ince. I am anti the start he's made to his tenure as Rovers manager. I am anti selling our best players, I am anti 33 year old wasters, I am anti 4th division dollopers, and I am anti no mark coaches that have done nothing in their careers to justify their place one of the 10 best teams this country has to offer.

He needs to get a grip, big time. The title of this thread asks a very simple question. So far my very resounding answer is NO.

[imy9]

Winterburn was part of arguably the greatest back 5 in English football history, to simply brush him off as a "half decent defender" is ludricrous.

Question- was defending from set pieces and corners a problem for us last year? Did Hughes do anything to solve this issue?

At a time when people are questioning Ince because his training methods are outdated, it is interesting that we are the only club with a defensive coach and have the best Sports Science man in the country!

[Mr Creosote]

In coaching terms T4E is completely correct. Winterburn finished his playing career a long time ago but he hasn't attained any coaching badges since then. If he was really serious about getting in to the coaching side of things he would have taken those courses, it's simply common practise nowadays.

Ince's complete disregard for coaching qualifications is horrific really. There must be a lot of well-qualified, experienced defence coaches out there who would have been more than willing to join the club. Winterburn can't even use the Ince excuse of 'I was gaining experience through working', he just did spots of media work each week.

Other than being a half decent left-back as a player (which, let's be honest, counts for sod all), what place does Winterburn have at a Premiership club as a coach?

How about being part of one of the most well organised, stubborn back fours in modern English/Premiership history?

[The Prof.]

.........then ask this question for the rest of the backroom staff.

Lets get one thing straight - I am not anti Paul Ince. I am anti the start he's made to his tenure as Rovers manager. I am anti selling our best players, I am anti 33 year old wasters, I am anti 4th division dollopers, and I am anti no mark coaches that have done nothing in their careers to justify their place one of the 10 best teams this country has to offer.

He needs to get a grip, big time. The title of this thread asks a very simple question. So far my very resounding answer is NO.

I think this is being forgotten on here.

[imy9]

I am not anti Paul Ince.

I am anti the start he's made to his tenure as Rovers manager.

THE SEASON STARTS ON SATURDAY

I am anti selling our best players

AGREED BUT BOTH BENTLEY AND BRAD WANTED OUT WHEN HUGHES WAS IN CHARGE, SO INCE CANT BE AT FAULT CAN HE?

I am anti 33 year old wasters

HOW IS FOWLER A "WASTER" HE HAS LEFT A LUCRATIVE CONTRACT AT CARDIFF FOR A TRIAL FFS!! HE HAS MONEY IN THE BANK, HE IS HERE BECAUSE HE WANTS TO PROVE HE CAN CUT IT IN THE LEAGUE. PAY AS YOU PLAY DEAL WE ARE WINNERS IN THIS DEAL.

I am anti 4th division dollopers

WHO IS THIS A REFERENCE TO AS THERE ARE 2 COACHES FROM 4TH DIVISION, INCE AND MATHIAS. WE HAVE NOT SIGNED ANY 4TH DIVISION PLAYERS.

I am anti no mark coaches that have done nothing in their careers to justify their place one of the 10 best teams this country has to offer.

WHO WOULD THIS BE? WINTERBURN- I HAVE EXPLAINED. INCE- DESERVES A SHOT, WHO ELSE?

He needs to get a grip, big time. The title of this thread asks a very simple question. So far my very resounding answer is NO.

I AM SURE HE WILL GET A GRIP BUT I THINK THE BIGGEST ISSUE IS THAT WE HAVE A NUMBER OF BIG TIME CHARLIES IN THE SQUAD WHO NEED TO REMEMBER WHO PAYS THEIR WAGES. DUNN, ROBERTS, RSC, DERBYSHIRE ARE A NUMBER OF PLAYERS WHO HAVE COME OUT IN SUPPORT OF INCE.

[LeChuck]

How about being part of one of the most well organised, stubborn back fours in modern English/Premiership history?

How does that make him qualified to coach a top 10 Premiership side? All that proves was he was able to follow the orders of his defensive duty as a player pretty well. He hasn't got any experience or qualifications for the job he is in, in what other profession could you enter in to one of the best jobs in the country in that situation?

I don't see what he has to offer us except "well, at Arsenal we used to do this...so...erm...do that!".

[Majiball]

I see the whole punishment scenario has come about again, with critic that players should not be treated as kids. No they shouldn't, its unfair, demeaning you could say. At the same time however you also need to consider the message that was sent from the player.

We have in Mark Howard one of the most respected Sports scientists in football, he has good qualifications. Now as with all sports science degree courses (he must have one) a large section of the course is made of Psychology. Motivation personality, goal setting and communication will take up large parts of the course. Given his success in the game I assume he did well. Body language is know as the other language to the majority of people its meanings are not know, and neither is how to interpret them. I assume Howard does along with his assistant.

Having training in this area is a vital weapon in sports most players do not tell the manager the whole picture or even some of the picture, for whatever reason. A good manager sees them before the player even knows about them, and acts. below is a short article taken from a paper it explains a few of the basic interpretations of everyday body language.

Body language

Now, on a personal level I like to consider the majority of what people have to say, I am open to all ideas. Its point in case that even bad ideas are of benefit. I show interest, I never cross my arms when someone is speaking to me its just rude and immature, childlike.

Now most of us on here have assumed as I have that the person asked to do the press ups was Bentley. Now this is the same Bentley who most have vilified recently. He has had mystery, unprovable injuries calf and hamstring that made him unable to play for us pre-season. He even admitted in the press that he did everything to get this move, I wonder what he was prepared to do? Lets say hypothetically he was prepared to run to the papers and seek petty revenge, just like a child, he would do so in hope of painting the coaching staff in a bad light. Well I say this congratulations David you have succeeded, cue round of applause. A disgruntled former player who has spun us a yarn over the last few months has the last laugh.

Whether you agree with the punishment or not it does go on in football, players are paid to do as the coaches/manager tells them. Its there job to take on board the ideas put across to them, digest them and act on them. The player with his arms crossed was not listening, not taking these ideas on board, not doing his job. How does your boss react when you are not doing your job as required. Yes it was public but so was his, tit for tat. Personally I would have taken them to one side, and made my point extremely clear, but it would be no different to the push ups the players would still have know what happened. For all we know it was not the first time the player in question had shown such lack of interest or disrespect to his boss, we are not privy to the whole picture as always, we should take it with the pinch of salt it deserves.

[Mr Creosote]

How does that make him qualified to coach a top 10 Premiership side? All that proves was he was able to follow the orders of his defensive duty as a player pretty well. He hasn't got any experience or qualifications for the job he is in, in what other profession could you enter in to one of the best jobs in the country in that situation?

I don't see what he has to offer us except "well, at Arsenal we used to do this...so...erm...do that!".

Oh well, lets just get Owd Joe from the Taproom in to do the job then.

ffs.

[T4E]

I am not anti Paul Ince.

I am anti the start he's made to his tenure as Rovers manager.

THE SEASON STARTS ON SATURDAY

I am anti selling our best players

AGREED BUT BOTH BENTLEY AND BRAD WANTED OUT WHEN HUGHES WAS IN CHARGE, SO INCE CANT BE AT FAULT CAN HE?

I am anti 33 year old wasters

HOW IS FOWLER A "WASTER" HE HAS LEFT A LUCRATIVE CONTRACT AT CARDIFF FOR A TRIAL FFS!! HE HAS MONEY IN THE BANK, HE IS HERE BECAUSE HE WANTS TO PROVE HE CAN CUT IT IN THE LEAGUE. PAY AS YOU PLAY DEAL WE ARE WINNERS IN THIS DEAL.

I am anti 4th division dollopers

WHO IS THIS A REFERENCE TO AS THERE ARE 2 COACHES FROM 4TH DIVISION, INCE AND MATHIAS. WE HAVE NOT SIGNED ANY 4TH DIVISION PLAYERS.

I am anti no mark coaches that have done nothing in their careers to justify their place one of the 10 best teams this country has to offer.

WHO WOULD THIS BE? WINTERBURN- I HAVE EXPLAINED. INCE- DESERVES A SHOT, WHO ELSE?

He needs to get a grip, big time. The title of this thread asks a very simple question. So far my very resounding answer is NO.

I AM SURE HE WILL GET A GRIP BUT I THINK THE BIGGEST ISSUE IS THAT WE HAVE A NUMBER OF BIG TIME CHARLIES IN THE SQUAD WHO NEED TO REMEMBER WHO PAYS THEIR WAGES. DUNN, ROBERTS, RSC, DERBYSHIRE ARE A NUMBER OF PLAYERS WHO HAVE COME OUT IN SUPPORT OF INCE.

Brad wanted to leave when Hughes was here?!

Could you please tell me how many of our backroom staff have even had experience, let alone success, at the level we need them to be capable of?

Fowler is a complete waste of a space in our squad. We all know he wont cut it in the Premier League, we're wasting our time. We should be out actively looking to improve the team. We don't seem to be doing that.

Oh well, lets just get Owd Joe from the Taproom in to do the job then.

ffs.

Those must be the only two options then?

[thenodrog]

Has everyone forgotten that we are Blackburn Rovers - no one likes us but we don't care?

I seem to rem Paul Ince saying as much a few years ago...... Hardly helps his cause does it?

[Ronin]

below is a short article taken from a paper it explains a few of the basic interpretations of everyday body language.

Body language

And from that article the bit about folded arms

Arms and hands

These are very versatile. Arms folded across the body are in a defence position. Defence against what? If you're trying to make a point and the other person has folded their arms, don't bother; they are shutting your idea out, even if they are saying the opposite.

The way Bentley had been acting of late, I would say that would some him up, ego and all. Especially as he was 'doing all he could' to get his move away.

[thenodrog]

We would have gone downhill under Hughes this season, as indeed we did for the 2nd half of last season

Conjecture.

[Exiled in Toronto]

Conjecture.

Unlike your gazillion posts conjecturing that Ince will be a massive failure?

[thenodrog]

I think he knows a bit more about scoring in top flight footy in England than RSC and Benni, albeit he isn't at their level at the moment.

Simon that must be about the daftest post you have ever made. Face it Fowler will never ever be at their level again. Last season was not a blip for him.... Sorry for shouting but...... HE HAS NOT BEEN A 'PLAYER' SINCE OWEN TOOK HIS PLACE IN LPOOLS TEAM AND LPOOL SOLD HIM TO LEEDS IN 2001!

Thats 7 bloody years of ineptitude and there is no arguing with that..... and imo no way back either.

Unlike your gazillion posts conjecturing that Ince will be a massive failure?

Touche eit.

[thenodrog]

For crying out loud!!

What is it with you people?? Latching on to ANYTHING that comes out of Rovers and turning it into something to suit your anti-Rovers / anti-Ince agenda??

Warnock didn't say enough ... Dunn said too much ... and Ince himself has every public utterance that comes out of his mouth manipulated into ammunition to suit some peoples campaign against him.

Why don't you change hobbies or something, but FFS give up pretending to support BRFC.

Catch 22 I'm afraid Tris. If people didn't care about BRFC then feelings would not be so strong. What you are asking is for people to ignore instincts and intuition and all the proceedings of the close season and to simply display or cultivate a strong sense of blind faith. I'm sure that JW hopes the same.

Tris I know where you are coming from and for the good of the club maybe we should all put up and shut up BUT I simply cannot stomach the downturn in our fortunes that we are seeing and am wondering why and what chain of events led to it happening and where it is all leading to. I hope I am wrong but I'm sorry I just have not seen any positives this summer.

Everybody can see that our curve is downward from just 3 short months ago when we were all in our european comfort zones and so much positivity was still being generated. I don't know whats gone on but a chain of events has screwed us over big time, and in a way that imo would never be allowed to happen at many of our rival clubs, and should never have been allowed to materialise here.

Don't know about anybody else but from being a club to be feared and respected by our peers (albeit very grudgingly) I now feel like we are just poor relations at the top table to be treated with disdain and disrespect by all and sundry.

[Veevs]

Veevs - good response, thanks for taking the time & thought to give a balanced view.

Firstly, we share a view that one of the biggest problems is perception. We've three factors I see that work against this.

Some of your comments - with respect - are stating the obvious, but at least they lay out the facts, rather than spin to suit an argument.

Thanks for the well thought out response mate, I agree with your points

I still worry about the footballing side of things.. its great saying give ince time to make select the ideal players (in a perfect world that would be great but we have fixed deadlines, you can't move the start of the season because a manager needs to shop around a little more), its like shopping sometimes you can find the perfect item at the perfect price, sometimes you find a total bargin thats not ideal and sometimes you dont and have to settle for a cheaper off the shelf model to fit your immediate needs.

Our immediate need is a destinct lack of backup on the right hand side and a lack of a ball winner in the middle of the park.. without these I feel and a few others do as well that we could/will struggle, sometimes you have to take a stop gap measure to avoid disaster.

As for stating the obvious I have worked in management for 10 years, I believe in simplicity, fix the obvious before worrying about the rest, too many people avoid the obvious answers and issues.

Wenger himself put it recently "Sometimes you have to gamble on talent", so I guess in my opinion we need to take a little bit of a gamble (like I said not throwing our whole budget away) on someone with enough talent to do the job.

In regards to your perceptions, your right, too many negative comments have been flying around these boards for too long, in a way we have been spoilt with the glory days and a run of good managers, some people cant help but feel bitter going from champions with shed loads of money to mid table runners pushing for Europe (and I think we have been lucky compaired to the rest to stay there) who struggle to hold onto our best.

Maybe we seriously need to hire a top notch PR team, I don't think we have one do we lol, we certainly don't have spin doctors like many clubs now (and that can only be a good thing) but we do need to be able to defend ourselves a little better.

In regards to an advisor for Ince, I am not sure it would undermine him but show stature that he is willing to get in advice while he learns top level management, I did not say appoint a director of football which power now that would be undermining him.

Anyways enough waffle from me or it will turn into another essay.

[Jonnolad]

This could all be far worse of course - check out this wally:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F8oN58cyp2c

If you can't speak the language just do the accent!

My favourite bit is when he says "we are not just what you call underdogs" - No Steve we call it underdogs the Dutch probably have their own name.

[gazsimm]

Catch 22 I'm afraid Tris. If people didn't care about BRFC then feelings would not be so strong. What you are asking is for people to ignore instincts and intuition and all the proceedings of the close season and to simply display or cultivate a strong sense of blind faith. I'm sure that JW hopes the same.

Tris I know where you are coming from and for the good of the club maybe we should all put up and shut up BUT I simply cannot stomach the downturn in our fortunes that we are seeing and am wondering why and what chain of events led to it happening and where it is all leading to. I hope I am wrong but I'm sorry I just have not seen any positives this summer.

Everybody can see that our curve is downward from just 3 short months ago when we were all in our european comfort zones and so much positivity was still being generated. I don't know whats gone on but a chain of events has screwed us over big time, and in a way that imo would never be allowed to happen at many of our rival clubs, and should never have been allowed to materialise here.

Don't know about anybody else but from being a club to be feared and respected by our peers (albeit very grudgingly) I now feel like we are just poor relations at the top table to be treated with disdain and disrespect by all and sundry.

Another depressing post from drog, god do you ever wake up in a good mood, Ince needs time and not fans gettting on his back even before the season has started.

IF THAT A SMILE I CAN SEE COMING FROM YOU OR DO I EYE NEED MY EYES TESTING

[Exiled in Toronto]

Don't know about anybody else but from being a club to be feared and respected by our peers (albeit very grudgingly) I now feel like we are just poor relations at the top table to be treated with disdain and disrespect by all and sundry.

That I do agree with.

The club has been in turmoil.

While I support Ince until results prove otherwise, I do feel he has not been set up to succeed by the Chairman. I never understood why every position in the club had to be filled by the Taffia; Assistant Manager and Head Coach yes, but Reserve Team Manager, Chief Scout, Bottle washer etc etc? Never in our history has one man, Hughes, been allowed to stack the club in this manner. Kenny Dalgeish worked with Parkes and Darracot ffs. And by any definition they were all Hughes's 'mates' and 'cronies', or did Welsh football overtake Brazil and Italy while I was asleep?

Ince did not invent the concept of cronyism, he had no choice. For a young, inexperienced manage to have to face replacing every position of any significance in a top-seven club within a fortnight was a ridiculous position to have been put in. Williams rolled over too easily letting Hughes create the problem and, I believe, did not realise the impact when Hughes inevitably departed, depsite having six months notice to think about it.

The only solution would have been to poach an existing set-up from elsewhere, but that was never going to happen.

If Ince succeeds, and I hope he does, it will a doubly impressive achievement, and it will be in spite of, and not because of, the Chairman.

[thenodrog]

IF THAT A SMILE I CAN SEE COMING FROM YOU OR DO I EYE NEED MY EYES TESTING

They must do gaz. F is nowhere near S on a keyboard.

[gbax]

The club has been in turmoil.

A little dramatic - now Luton, that is a club in turmoil. Poor fans. I'd take our 'turmoil' over theirs any day!

[incecticide]

They must do gaz. F is nowhere near S on a keyboard.

Not to be pedantic, but it's quite near...

[CAPT KAYOS]

That I do agree with.

The club has been in turmoil.

While I support Ince until results prove otherwise, I do feel he has not been set up to succeed by the Chairman. I never understood why every position in the club had to be filled by the Taffia; Assistant Manager and Head Coach yes, but Reserve Team Manager, Chief Scout, Bottle washer etc etc? Never in our history has one man, Hughes, been allowed to stack the club in this manner. Kenny Dalgeish worked with Parkes and Darracot ffs. And by any definition they were all Hughes's 'mates' and 'cronies', or did Welsh football overtake Brazil and Italy while I was asleep?

Ince did not invent the concept of cronyism, he had no choice. For a young, inexperienced manage to have to face replacing every position of any significance in a top-seven club within a fortnight was a ridiculous position to have been put in. Williams rolled over too easily letting Hughes create the problem and, I believe, did not realise the impact when Hughes inevitably departed, depsite having six months notice to think about it.

The only solution would have been to poach an existing set-up from elsewhere, but that was never going to happen.

If Ince succeeds, and I hope he does, it will a doubly impressive achievement, and it will be in spite of, and not because of, the Chairman.

In my book EIT - your post covers all the angles in Theno's post

BUT I simply cannot stomach the downturn in our fortunes that we are seeing and am wondering why and what chain of events led to it happening and where it is all leading to. I hope I am wrong but I'm sorry I just have not seen any positives this summer.

Everybody can see that our curve is downward from just 3 short months ago when we were all in our european comfort zones and so much positivity was still being generated. I don't know whats gone on but a chain of events has screwed us over big time, and in a way that imo would never be allowed to happen at many of our rival clubs, and should never have been allowed to materialise here.

Which ironically Theno , I think I am correct on saying this - you where the first to say at the beginning of last season when the Newcastle rumours started that we coiuld do no better than try to ensure that Hughes was not let go at all costs or at least ensure we where prepared if it did happen.

[T4E]

While I support Ince until results prove otherwise, I do feel he has not been set up to succeed by the Chairman. I never understood why every position in the club had to be filled by the Taffia; Assistant Manager and Head Coach yes, but Reserve Team Manager, Chief Scout, Bottle washer etc etc? Never in our history has one man, Hughes, been allowed to stack the club in this manner. Kenny Dalgeish worked with Parkes and Darracot ffs. And by any definition they were all Hughes's 'mates' and 'cronies', or did Welsh football overtake Brazil and Italy while I was asleep?

Very good points, and not something I had really considered.

That said, Hughes showed that bringing in a complete team could work very well for the club. Perhaps JW should have involved himself more in the recruitment of Ince's backroom staff, thus making the new employees feel that they were hired by the club, not by Paul Ince. Would certainly save the same messing about if Ince was to move on and take the whole lot with him.