[Archived] England's Future - Fa Ban All Competitive Games Until Age 11!

[speeeeeeedie]

This debate is the crux of English football. I have to disagree with The Prof; results amongst youngsters is one of many attributes killing English football. Kids will always be competitive, that is how they get better. By teaching an 8 year old to win win win, you take out the need to develop basic ball skills, it turns into lump, boot, and yell. Unfortunately parents of these kids were playing like this when they were young so they are merely passing on what they experienced. It will take a social change to make our kids better; stop parents from shouting and screaming, encouraging kids to spend a little time with the ball at their feet, and giving kids decent surfaces to play on. If they get tackled and the other team score currently they'll get berated and the ubiquitous "get rid of it" will surface. If they are left to their own devices they'll figure out a way around it.

I've heard and experienced enough about football in my life and one thing that always stuck is that the quicker a player can control a ball the easier the game is as they have more time to decide what to do with it. Being able to properly control a ball gives the player confidence to pass, shoot, and dribble too.

[RoyRover]

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/06/...at_england.html

A great article on how far behind England are at international level. Probably one of the reasons why they have thought to bring in this new rule.

There's nothing wrong with being competitive at a young age, just as long as it is done in the right manner. Children who are congratulated for winning and not shouted at for losing but encouraged, while get a far greater enjoyment out of the game. As SoCal Rover said, children need to learn that you can't win all the time and the sooner they realise this, they won't be as scared of losing. This in turn could allow them develop their skill and technique and try things in games. It is there to see from the best international teams, that are playing on a different level to England and the rest of us.

[blue phil]

I would also think that a team thats been together for 5 years playing competitively and played a team at age 16 thats never had a competitive game would have only one outcome.

No doubt the outcome would be an emphatic victory for the team that's played competitively since they were 11.

But if the other bunch of lads had been working on their skill levels for that length of time - as Brooking wisely advocates - rather than simply winning meaningless games in meaningless leagues , then the tide would turn before long without a shadow of a doubt .

It's no conicidence that our junior teams can compete with any in the world ....but then slip behind at adult level ; they simply haven't got the techniques to compete at the very highest level . At best we can produce 2 or 3 top class players at one time but that's not enough to win a World or Euro cup .

Leagues up to the age of 15 years of age simply aren't necessary . Kids can play matches , compete as much as they want , but the win at all costs mentality which inevitably sways the attitudes of coaches , kids and parents alike to the cost of technical mastery of the ball has to end .

Brooking , at times , is like a lone prophet in this area ; he knows what has to be done . Getting the government , councils and the football authorities to do more than pay lip service and actually provide facilities is a task that might be beyond anyone , such is the kick and rush culture that prevails at grassroots level at the moment .

[Head Rover Heels]

But if the other bunch of lads had been working on their skill levels for that length of time - as Brooking wisely advocates - rather than simply winning meaningless games in meaningless leagues , then the tide would turn before long without a shadow of a doubt .

It's no conicidence that our junior teams can compete with any in the world ....but then slip behind at adult level

A very good point, and possibly the reason the failures of our senior team cause so much annoyance.

Every year we see good competitive lads coming through the system, and have many "great prospects" in the U-21s and below. Ones that look like being the future of our "flair" players in the senior team. Like... um, Keiron Richardson.

When you look at the senior team, we have good quality central defenders, central midfielders, have always had decent combative strikers who come deep, and a fair selection of 'keepers compared to other countries.

Is it too much of a coincidence that these are the 'bread and butter' positions, ones that would force wins in a rough and tumble competitive league, yet our luxury players - Wingers, poachers, playmaking midfielders - always disappoint when they should be maturing?

I think you've hit the nail incredibly square, right in the middle of the head.

[Sydney Rovers]

I'm not saying it should be a 'win at all costs' situation. If the FA think peer pressure and parents create an atmosphere unsuitable for skills to be learned thats what needs tackling not the games/leagues.

I'd hope that the FA would be doing that, down here we've got programmes set up to try to stop this but it's very hard to change people's attitudes as some parents are trying to re-live their sporting youth and hope that their little Johnny/Joanne makes a squillion dollars playing football.

On another note the major issue in developing players for the future is the timing of when kids should play on a full sized pitch. I'm on the committee of a club and there was a 12 year old girl's team (from another club) playing before one of our teams and it was so stupid to see these girls playing on a full size pitch. There was no real skill shown because the game was very compacted and girls couldn't kick the ball far enough to make a decent pass more than 3 or 4 metres away.

[American]

I also think one of the problems you see in many places is the emphasis on starting the players full time on a specific sport when they are young. Playing multiple sports helps a kid develop many different physical skills. I know I've heard American keepers say that basketball has been beneficial to them.

It happens over here as well. You see a few players become two sport stars in college, but usually they are asked to pick a sport when they show athletic prowess. A lot of players that do play 2 sports in college (such as Antonio Gates) say that the skills from the second sport have helped them become better at the first.

[thenodrog]

I think that any player getting to play in the Prem is not only gifted but damned competative by nature. There are many very talented players that never make top level just cos they are not mentally tough enough to go that extra mile.

[blue phil]

It's the extra mile after getting to premiership level that we're on about - the massive step up from prem level to international tournament level .

Somebody like Robbie Savage can get to prem level by being mentally tough and ultra competitive but would never in a million years take the next step .

We have players in the prem who are one footed and can't control a ball consistently with one touch - that wouldn't be the case given 10 years of proper coaching and emphasis on technical skills in the players' formative years . Ally those skills to the typical British characteristics of determination and we might get somewhere .

[thenodrog]

It's the extra mile after getting to premiership level that we're on about - the massive step up from prem level to international tournament level .

Somebody like Robbie Savage can get to prem level by being mentally tough and ultra competitive but would never in a million years take the next step .

We have players in the prem who are one footed and can't control a ball consistently with one touch - that wouldn't be the case given 10 years of proper coaching and emphasis on technical skills in the players' formative years . Ally those skills to the typical British characteristics of determination and we might get somewhere .

Robbie Savage DID take the next step and won many caps for Wales. Strange how he gets dissed whilst Gattuso is lauded. All I see is that a bigger countries water carrier is just a bit better than that of a smaller country, rem one of our heroes of 66 was one Norbet Stiles! Now compare the attitude and bearing of mesrs Sav and Gatt. One is a single minded professional (imo) the other is a likeable rogue and ever popular cheeky chappie.

I think failing of our international players is more an attitude problem than an inability to take their skill to the next level as you suggest Phil. (I happen to believe that is God given anyway...... no amount of practicing with my wrong foot would have even made me a professional never mind an international thats for sure) but that basically as a nation we cannot take competativeness to the next level and ally it to mental toughness and maturity.

Look at the Italians, the Germans, the dutch etc. Nations that have enjoyed more success than our own over the years despite being similarly placed in terms of football resource. We see too often when the crunch comes that we fequently have a men v boys scenario. Need proof? Witness the behaviour and attitude of our 'boys' over the years. Most treat their training as a chore, and there position as a top flight player with disrespect. Give our lot a day off from training and they'll disappear to the races or the golf club. Theirs is the best job in the world and they should really say 'sod that m'larky' and go in to work on their fitness and skill. Normally training lasts a couple of hours before they all clear off, in reallity they should have a light lunch and go back to work on set pieces etc. Beckham had a modicum of natural talent but reputedly worked and worked on his crossing, fitness and set peices.... just imagine what sort of a player would we have had on our hands if Gazza had displayed the same attitude as Becks! Look too at the appearence of our lot ( and credit here to the old RFW at MU whose players wear blazers and club ties with pride) most appear to in hoodies and t shirts with stupid hats put on sideways. Pride and the right attitude is a scarcer commodity rather than skill imo. I've frequently noticed England players making noises about wearing their shirt with pride and to be honest I feel noises are as far as it gets. Listen to our players being interviewed. They sound like chavs compared that to the likes of Klinnsman and Gullitt. How many years has it been since an England captain of long standing has been able to pronounce 'th' correctly and not as an 'f'?

Basically the 'extra mile' is not about delaying kids maturing but in bloody well speeding it up!

btw this The maturity / attitude issue is one of my biggest concerns when comparing our current and previous manager.

[bellamy11]

Our players probably find training a chore because they've never played football for enjoyment and not as a form of competition. I'm 100% with Blue Phil on this one. People here are quite rightly proud of our English "bulldog spirit" and glorious failures, but too often we are embarassed at international level because 11 players who are comfortable on the ball can pass rings around us.

Little differences, as a 10 year old, like passing the ball out of trouble, teaches kids not to be frightened of the ball and to remain calm under pressure. But how many do these days knowing that a mistake can cost them some ultimately unimportant kids league game? Wrath of parents, chiding from team-mates - who wouldn't hoof the ball out of danger?

Look what Croatia did to us at Wembley. Every one of their players wanted the ball and were experts in retaining it. Most of them would probably struggle in the kick and rush world of the Premiership, but at international level they were streets ahead.

Gordon - compare your attitude towards Steven Gerrard and Joe Cole. Gerrard, which as you've pointed out about 130 times on here, is a good Saturday player but shows nothing for his country. The latter, as you've said, should be the focal point of our midfield. Which one of the two embodies what makes a successful teenage footballer? Strong, powerful, competitive - it's not Joe Cole. Cole probably got called an arrogant show-pony by a million people but you can tell he enjoys playing the game and loves being on the ball. Coaches like Mourinho can make him into an all-rounded player later on. I suggest that nobody could make Steven Gerrard a world-beater at international level now.

[The Prof.]

Well, this is a very good debate regardless of opinions. I think I still regard the FA as muppets though and perhaps it's worth a reminder of the FA's position. However I smell teachers on here!

They have:

- now banned all competitive football under 8's and intend to make this rule for all under 11's.

They have not;

- agreed to reduce the size of pitches at 11 – Brooking said he would like to do this but it was unfeasible. This would help a lot in my opinion and cost very little. No. 1 son played for Darwen Primary schools at Vale on a full size bog with a 25 degree slope. It doesn't help skill!

- Done anything about playing surfaced generally – although I think there are a few very good junior pitches around Blackburn now the majority of good playing surfaces need car travel.

- Done anything about recreational pitches where kids can play for fun - Where such pitches are good (mainly in some schools) they are surrounded by CCTV, the Community Coppers, and trespass signs. You can't play on a street due to cars and even in a cul de sac because you could hit a car and be in trouble. A few good small sports pitches in urban areas would help a lot in my opinion but we/the FA would rather spend ¾ of a million on a couple of good full sized pitches at Blacksnape. This doesn't help future England stars and they appear to be for adults. I'm hardly going to make the breakthrough at my age am I? And it's a million miles away from where most kids can get to by themselves.

- Done anything about Coaching – this is left to junior clubs to sort out and fund unless you are lucky enough to be picked up by a 'big' club – MU have I think 12 u8 places and 12 u11. Rovers is similar.

- Done anything about Parents – Referee based bans (If they are very brave) would be a start. Club based codes of conduct could be introduced and adhered to. This can be done at schools level instigated by the local authorities.

- Done anything about the gap between under 17 's - 21's which is small when compared to the rest of the world and the 21+'s which is unacceptably large.

I still think banning all competitive games is a big motivational issue for kids and will remain so. As a kid I might never win a Premiership medal (few will) but many thousands of kids would win something in a junior league. Oh no – sorry – they can't now can they? This will reduce the numbers and we'll end up in the same situation as tennis – Big Tournament – No players (low junior numbers were the biggest reason given by the All England Club for lack of players).

In effect the FA have ruined any chance of achievement for tens of thousands of small kids for a proposition which even if it did work would benefit just a very tiny number of people who make the grade. We've just gone from 2nd class to very 3rd class this week.

[cn174]

They have not;

- agreed to reduce the size of pitches at 11 – Brooking said he would like to do this but it was unfeasible. This would help a lot in my opinion and cost very little. No. 1 son played for Darwen Primary schools at Vale on a full size bog with a 25 degree slope. It doesn't help skill!

- Done anything about recreational pitches where kids can play for fun

- Done anything about Parents – Referee based bans (If they are very brave) would be a start. Club based codes of conduct could be introduced and adhered to. This can be done at schools level instigated by the local authorities.

I think these are probably the three most important things. Its not difficult to make a smaller pitch - how about using just one half of the pitch turned sideways - so can have 2 games on one pitch. Easy. All that playing on a full sized pitch really achieves is that people who can run faster or kick the ball further will win, and is probably why we're so good at playing long ball game.

Pitches for people play I think is a massive issue. There just is nowhere to go and play footy in most places. We was quite lucky when we was younger that we could go on our school field and play, but that is no longer the case. It is not just a problem for footy, there's no tennis courts, basketball courts, etc. or anything round here. However it is doubtful that anyone is going to do anything about this for the foreseeable future.

Parents are a problem, in many cases they put far too much pressure on young kids to win at all costs, which doesn't help in the long run at all. To a certain extent this is not problems at academies because they tend to be strict and say that parents should be supportive, but let the coach coach. It has been known for certain parents to be asked not to come along to games, and some clubs just won't let parents watch full stop. For a while I know that whenever Man U played Liverpool, parents were only allowed to watch the game from the clubhouse, not anywhere near the pitch.

[blue phil]

I think failing of our international players is more an attitude problem than an inability to take their skill to the next level as you suggest Phil. (I happen to believe that is God given anyway...... no amount of practicing with my wrong foot would have even made me a professional never mind an international thats for sure) but that basically as a nation we cannot take competativeness to the next level and ally it to mental toughness and maturity.

I don't think I've ever disagreed so strongly with you about anything before , Gordon .....

'Tis true we do have an attitude problem at times - and this is getting worse the more pampered and overpaid the players get - we could force kids to be as competative as is humanly possible from the day they could walk onto a full sized pitch but if they don't have the technical skills that can only be learnt in their formative years then they are never going to win the major tournaments at ADULT level .

Yes , Robbie Savage played for his country , and I don't denigrate him for that because he made the most of his talents , but he would never in a million years get into a Euro or World cup challenging team .

The thing is , it's competitiveness and mental strength that are innate and God given - but I doubt that anyone is born with the ability to be two footed . That takes endless practice at an early age - which itself needs good coaching . Less time playing silly 11 a side games and more time playing 4 or 5 a side games is a necessity .

[thenodrog]

I don't think I've ever disagreed so strongly with you about anything before , Gordon .....

'Tis true we do have an attitude problem at times - and this is getting worse the more pampered and overpaid the players get - we could force kids to be as competative as is humanly possible from the day they could walk onto a full sized pitch but if they don't have the technical skills that can only be learnt in their formative years then they are never going to win the major tournaments at ADULT level .

Yes , Robbie Savage played for his country , and I don't denigrate him for that because he made the most of his talents , but he would never in a million years get into a Euro or World cup challenging team .

The thing is , it's competitiveness and mental strength that are innate and God given - but I doubt that anyone is born with the ability to be two footed . That takes endless practice at an early age - which itself needs good coaching . Less time playing silly 11 a side games and more time playing 4 or 5 a side games is a necessity .

If your argument has any merit Phil then the primary necessity is to simply ban play stations. As a child kicking a football every daylight waking hour on every available piece of spare land was all most kids ever wanted to do. How often do yous see that nowadays?

[Napoleon]

I think the FA have got this right, for once.

If you look at the Spanish performance last night, their technique far outshone anything you see from English players. Focusing on skills-based training at an early age, then learning how to apply them in a match later is used by many of the top footballing nations. Add to that the effect of taking away idiot parents yelling at their kids from the touchlines at under 10 ages, and kids "coaches" who are living out their wannabe Alex Ferguson fantasies, and you have a positive effect I would think.

[tcj_jones]

I'm kind of on the fence at the moment because I don't know exactly what a ban on competitive games entails. I take it you can still play friendly games?

However, what I cannot stand is the behaviour of adults pitch side at games played by such young kids. I go to university in Canterbury and I sometimes see the Gillingham youngsters play. Some of them are so small, they cannot be more than 10 years old, yet I hear the parents shouting things like "CLEAR IT! GET RID OF IT! F*ING GET RID OF IT! ARGH FOR F*s SAKE! (Please don't use that word again)!" I hear the parents swearing at the kids in anger and I see the despondent looks on their faces. If this ban brings an end to this kind of pressure and this kind of an atmosphere, then I'm all for it.

I'm also with LeChuck on hearing things like "get rid of it!" coming from the touch lines. Providing kids can still play friendly games, then I think concentrating on individual skill and giving them the freedom to run with the ball at their feet will be just as enjoyable. That said, I can't imagine us producing as many brilliant defenders.

[thenodrog]

I'm kind of on the fence at the moment because I don't know exactly what a ban on competitive games entails. I take it you can still play friendly games?

However, what I cannot stand is the behaviour of adults pitch side at games played by such young kids. I go to university in Canterbury and I sometimes see the Gillingham youngsters play. Some of them are so small, they cannot be more than 10 years old, yet I hear the parents shouting things like "CLEAR IT! GET RID OF IT! F*ING GET RID OF IT! ARGH FOR F*s SAKE! (Please don't use that word again)!" I hear the parents swearing at the kids in anger and I see the despondent looks on their faces. If this ban brings an end to this kind of pressure and this kind of an atmosphere, then I'm all for it.

I'm also with LeChuck on hearing things like "get rid of it!" coming from the touch lines. Providing kids can still play friendly games, then I think concentrating on individual skill and giving them the freedom to run with the ball at their feet will be just as enjoyable. That said, I can't imagine us producing as many brilliant defenders.

Nothing wrong with 'getting rid of it' or 'row Z tactics' when it is the best option. Kids simply need to learn when to hoof it and when to play it. The choice of manager for kids teams is important.

[LeChuck]

Nothing wrong with 'getting rid of it' or 'row Z tactics' when it is the best option.

Yes there is, it's completely and utterly wrong for kids.

You can teach any kid (or adult) of any age how to 'get rid' in about 5 minutes. Why on earth get them to do it at a young age, it teaches them absolutely nothing that will be useful in the long run.

[thenodrog]

Yes there is, it's completely and utterly wrong for kids.

You can teach any kid (or adult) of any age how to 'get rid' in about 5 minutes. Why on earth get them to do it at a young age, it teaches them absolutely nothing that will be useful in the long run.

Pratting about playing pretty passes in ever decreasing triangle and inviting forwards to lunge at em will teach them how to get seriously injured. Bloody hell we see it week in and week out at Ewood even. There is a time and a place to play passes long or short. If it's in the rules it's part and parcel.

[LeChuck]

Pratting about playing pretty passes in ever decreasing triangle and inviting forwards to lunge at em will teach them how to get seriously injured. Bloody hell we see it week in and week out at Ewood even. There is a time and a place to play passes long or short. If it's in the rules it's part and parcel.

Talk about missing the point...

If it's non-competitive then there won't be any forwards lunging in with tackles, will there? That's the whole point - allowing players to progress their skills instead of lumping clear attempting a completely pointless victory.

[speeeeeeedie]

Nothing wrong with 'getting rid of it' or 'row Z tactics' when it is the best option. Kids simply need to learn when to hoof it and when to play it. The choice of manager for kids teams is important.

Pratting about playing pretty passes in ever decreasing triangle and inviting forwards to lunge at em will teach them how to get seriously injured. Bloody hell we see it week in and week out at Ewood even. There is a time and a place to play passes long or short. If it's in the rules it's part and parcel.

You've just proven to me that you know naff all about football.

No wonder kids are playing video games all day if the opposite is having you and people of your ilk shout at them to get rid as it's "the best option" instead of "pratting about" trying to learn some skills and confidence. No wonder our national team can't qualify for major tournaments. Oh, I forgot, it's because they're pampered fools, not the fact that they still can't pass straight.

[mattyboy6000]

I don't understand where rondog has shown he knows naff all about footballw in those examples. of course there's a time to hoof it and a time to pass. the time to hoof it being when theres no time to pass.

I started playing competetive football when i was in cubs. winning meant a lot- and always should. the phrase "its not the winning, its the taking part" is all bunkum to motivate losers. if overzealous parents are the problem, why not act against them driectly, instead of stamping all over kids opportunity to learn about winning (and losing).

[thenodrog]

You've just proven to me that you know naff all about football.

I'll tell you what speedie...... imo what you know about football would prob fit on the back of a postage stamp BUT you do appear to know how to make a pratt of yourself in quick time.

[Flopsy]

wind it in boys

[Majiball]

The FA have it right, The focus for technical development is the way forward, Look at Holland the Ajax system kids focus on skill purely from the age they join a club they start at 6 (unofficially)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sportacademy/hi/sa/f...000/2858785.stm

Try reading it, the youth set-up over there is second to none, these are the formative years for kids traits habits etc are all formed that will carry through into future life, A child retains more informative during these years than at any other time in their life. Focus on pure technique will only aid the countries international decline.

There is only one academy in England that has focused on this over the last ten or so years, Arsenal Last year I saw Plymouth U 16's play there equivalent, now Plymouth had a new coach who was changing the focus over to this more technical viewpoint. The trouble is the arsenal kids have been doing it all there life, Cricket score to Arsenal it was beautiful to watch. Everyone in there team could beat there man, control the ball and most could use both feet reasonably well. It was a real eye opener for the Plymouth kids, and in ten years or so it will be one for all of you on here who doubt its importance.

Well done Trevor, finally next you can raise under 18's to 20!