[Archived] Bad News Britain

[Anti Euro Smiths Fan]

So then Smiffy, what do you consider an appropriate prison sentence, and what has "human rights" got to do with it ?

Hello Jim,

Thank you for debating in a civilised manner, free from personal insults. If it was up to me Jim I would increase increase the maximum sentence for causing death by careless driving from five years to twelve years.

Bearing in mind that the judge, Mr Justice Irwin, said: "This was one of the most serious offences of its kind" - I would therefore have jailed Mr Da Silva for the maximum term of 12 years.

The prosecution heard that Da Silva was using his laptop computer to work out an alternative route at the time of the accident and it was clear that for a period of around a minute, Da Silva was not paying proper attention to the road when his 40-tonne lorry hit the car. In my view Mr Da Silva is a selfish man for not paying attention on the road when he had a lethal 40-tonne weapon with him.

You may have the view that a 12-year sentence for Da Silva would be too harsh for the Portugese driver. I would disagree. In this tragic and high-profile case a tougher sentence may have acted as a deterrent for other scumbags who think that they can drive a 40-tonne lorry carelessly and get away with it.

It is true that a 12-year sentence won't bring the family of six back, but it may have helped to prevent other deaths on the roads if people in the future had taken note of a 12-year sentence and realised the serious consequences of not paying attention on the roads. The prevention of further deaths and further terrible tragedies would be my number one priority rather than the rights of Mr Da Silva.

Mr Justice Irwin, said: "Anyone who has heard of the case could not help but have strong, indeed overwhelming, sympathy for the families of those who died, a whole family wiped out." But the families of those who died say they are devastated and heartbroken by the lenient sentence the judge gave out - so how is that having sympathy for the families, if we don't take their pain into account when sentencing?

Do you feel Jim that the Statham family should be perfectly happy with Da Silva being released again in 18 months? If six members of your own family had been killed on the road due to a careless lorry driver selfishly not paying attention on the road, would you be content with the criminal being let out after 18 months?

If the answer to that is "Yes" then I suspect you would be in a minority among most people in Britain. I suspect that the majority of the public would certainly feel that 18 months isn't long enough.

The current maximum penalty for the more severe offence of causing death by dangerous driving is 14 years, but sadly the courts hardly ever apply sentences at the top end of the range. As a result of this, many bereaved families are outraged and disgusted at some of the pitifully low sentences imposed by judges when the killer of their loved ones are found guilty of death by dangerous driving.

If it was up to me I would increase the current maximum sentence for death by dangerous driving from the current 14 years to 25 years. Sadly it would be unlikely that judges would give sentences out at the top end of the 25-year range, but death by dangerous driving is in my view tantamount to murder. It is killing somebody by being dangerous and reckless.

In 2004, the Brummie scumbag Lee Hughes was found guilty of causing the death by dangerous driving of Douglas Graham, and of deliberately leaving the scene of an accident. The judge said that Hughes had a "callous disregard" for the four people in the Renault car he crashed into. But despite the maximum sentence being 14 years, Lee Hughes was only sentenced to six years imprisonment and he served only half of that six-year sentence.

Within three years he was welcomed back to football with open arms by Oldham F.C, with the chairman of Oldham saying: "Everybody deserves a second chance." But poor Douglas Graham didn't get a second chance did he, when he was killed?

I feel that Hughes should have been given a substantially longer prison sentence for his dangerous driving and for his disgusting selfishness and his callous disregard for the people in the Renault car, when he fled the scene. If it was up to me I would have quadrupled the sentence that Lee Hughes got. As well as the need for punishment, this would also be for the deterrent factor and for the prevention of further tragedies being my main concern, rather than worrying about the rights of Lee Hughes.

Time is pressing on Jim and it's past 11pm now and time for me to go to bed soon, so I won't discuss "human rights" in great detail tonight, but maybe tomorrow night I can do another post and discuss "human rights" in more detail.

Goodnight.

[SouthAussieRover]

Sleep well Smiffy.

I hope you don't have any nightmares.

[thenodrog]

This isn't a large amount by any means but it does grate on the sensibilities given the circumstances, and especially so with the financial state of the nation.

http://news.aol.co.uk/2500-compensation-fo...190528587827538

I know that we are legally bound but why not just say 'no sod off' to both this lot and the european courts on the grounds of common sense and decency? He'd no doubt get a euro rollocking ('savaged by a dead sheep' springs to mind:rolleyes: ) but Brown would score more election points if he did that than most other things that he's done recently. Problem is I suspect his backbenchers lead by that lunatic Galloway would tear him to pieces

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

This isn't a large amount by any means but it does grate on the sensibilities given the circumstances, and especially so with the financial state of the nation.

http://news.aol.co.uk/2500-compensation-fo...190528587827538

I know that we are legally bound but why not just say 'no sod off' to both this lot and the european courts on the grounds of common sense and decency? He'd no doubt get a euro rollocking ('savaged by a dead sheep' springs to mind:rolleyes: ) but Brown would score more election points if he did that than most other things that he's done recently. Problem is I suspect his backbenchers lead by that lunatic Galloway would tear him to pieces

Err. No, you're all right. Things are bad enough without getting a fellashing from the ECJ.

[tony gale's mic]

If it was up to me I would increase the current maximum sentence for death by dangerous driving from the current 14 years to 25 years. Sadly it would be unlikely that judges would give sentences out at the top end of the 25-year range, but death by dangerous driving is in my view tantamount to murder. It is killing somebody by being dangerous and reckless.

Utter, utter, utter tripe. Murder involves planning, it involves the intent to kill someone, it's something that very few people are capable of.

Not that I'm for one minute defending this bloke but dangerous driving is something we each see, to some degree or another, on the roads dozens, if not hundreds of times a year, depending on how long you spend on the roads. It doesn't make it right but its a separate crime entirely. To punish someone for driving recklessly with no actively malicious intentions with the same sentence as a cold blooded murder is yet another example of your warped and twisted logic.

And the feelings of the victims families should never be a major factor when considering a sentence. They're highly emotive, highly subjective factors and the only things that should come into it is a wholly objective look at the facts, the wrongs and the potential mitigating circumstances by an experienced judge.

[Anti Euro Smiths Fan]

To punish someone for driving recklessly with no actively malicious intentions with the same sentence as a cold blooded murder is yet another example of your warped and twisted logic.

I probably should have made it clearer that for people who commit murder I favour stronger sentences than the 25-year prison sentence I would have given to Lee Hughes for death by dangerous driving.

For adults who commit murder I'm strongly in favour of life sentences to literally mean life imprisonment, with the only reason for an early release being if new evidence comes to light that there's been a miscarriage of justice and that the man is innocent.

I said in my earlier post that death by dangerous driving is tantamount to murder. What I should have actually said was that it is almost as bad as murder. It is killing somebody by being dangerous and reckless, but there is a distinction as you've said in terms of proven intent.

I believe that Lee Hughes was 28-years-old at the time he was convicted in 2004. I would have jailed him for 25 years until he was 53. On the other hand, if Hughes had stabbed somebody to death or killed someone with an axe I would have jailed him for the rest of his life - which could be 40 years, 50 years, 60 years or whatever depending on how long he would live for.

My main priority would be the protection of the public rather than the rights of dangerous criminals. Some people favour capital punishment. My own preferred method of punishment for murder is life imprisonment to literally mean life, unless in the event of a miscarriage of justice when obviously the person would be released.

The problem with capital punishment is that you can never bring back the dead if a mistake has been made. You can however release a prisoner if a mistake has been made.

I strongly believe that having a policy of imposing literally life imprisonment for murder would lead to a significant reduction in murders in this country if criminals knew that they would never again taste freedom and be freed from behind bars if they kill somebody. It might make them think twice. At the moment the criminals know that a so-called "life sentence" can sometimes only mean about six or eight years inside.

A number of murderers who have been released back into the community after a prison sentence have gone on to kill again. This would not have happened if the murderers had literally been jailed for life.

The point of view I have is that innocent people's rights and the protection of the public at large must come first before the rights of the violent criminals.

A comparison in sentencing between Italy and Britain...

Link: Italy passes tough emergency laws for child rapists and murderers

I take my hat off to Silvio Berlusconi's government for the tough action they are trying to take to protect the rights of the public.

On the other hand.....

An absolutely vile double rapist who violently raped a pregnant woman at knifepoint in a London park has been jailed for just six years this week, despite the horrific life-long impact on the poor woman. She had told the rapist that she was pregnant and begged him to leave her alone after he pounced on her in a park.

As the woman said: "I could have lost my unborn child. This haunts me now and will continue to do so forever."

Even though the Judge, David Higgins, said that the vile offences of the rapist amounted to "some of the most serious criminal offences which can come before a court" and he said that the rapist's behaviour was "cowardly, cruel, depraved, despicable, disgusting and deeply anti-social," he still only jailed the disgusting scumbag for just six years.

What kind of message does that send out to the rest of the country? Violently rape a pregnant woman at knifepoint in a park and get just a few years in prison. Some of the soft sentences being handed out in this country now are a disgrace.

The public are not being protected and sickening depravity and violence are not being adequately punished. It's a very sad state of affairs, but I fear that the liberal loonies have well and truly taken over the asylum, so to speak.

Link: Depraved double rapist jailed for six years

I'd be interested to know if there are people on this website who actually believe that a six-year sentence is a proper and adequate punishment for such a disgusting crime?

If your pregnant wife/girlfriend was raped at knifepoint in a park would you be happy with a six-year sentence for the beast?

My own view is that our criminal justice system is now completely failing to protect people from violent crime.

[colin]

Just another rant by AESF.

Pretty soon he'll pick up on The Sun's story that Peter Sutcliffe is going to be released.

Oh my God!

[tony gale's mic]

Even then there's a huge, huge difference between driving recklessly and murder for the reasons I stated before. Driving recklessly is largely a mistake, a stupid idiotic thoughtless mistake that deserves to be severely punished but by and large it is just that. It's also a crime where luck can mean you don't even get caught at all..in fact you only get punished for reckless driving if you're extremely unlucky. It's still utterly incomparable to murder, where it's far more than just a mistake, and where attempted murder will still (deservedly) get you a long time in jail.

Anyway "life means life" for me wouldn't bring about a significant reduction in the amount of murders. There's an argument to say that more should serve the longer terms, but for me 25 years should be enough of a deterrent for your average 25 year old murderer. Leading your entire adult life in the slammer, only coming out when you're 50, leaving behind everyone you knew, coming out as an ex murderer, being shut off from most civilised society, probably being of poor health etc etc should be enough of a deterrent to anyone. But the fact is with almost every murderer going, no deterrent in the world would stop them. All you're doing is using up prison space and using up resources on keeping old men behind bars.

[thenodrog]

All you're doing is using up prison space and using up resources on keeping old men behind bars.

Why do that when you can export em to somewhere that will do as good a job of imprisoning them but much much cheaper? Simply doesn't make economic sense for us to do it.

[Paul]

Murder involves planning, it involves the intent to kill someone, it's something that very few people are capable of.

I'm not sure that's true? Certainly there are planned murders but I feel there are a significant, apparently growing, number of murders which are almost accidental. Increasingly young people seem completely unaware of how easy it is to kill someone and are prepared to inflict mindless, unplanned violence on individuals for the slightest reason. I happened to catch this example on the news last night http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7901758.stm it seems to me this type of murder is rapidly growing esepcially amongst the young.

[blue phil]

Murder certainly does not necessarily have to be pre-planned as tony says .

It is clear to me , however , that the downgrading of many killings from murder to manslaughter have served to give the public an unclear view as to both the number and randomness of unlawful killings in recent years - and has helped successsive governments in their propoganda against those who argue we live in an increasingly violent society .

As for tony's assertion that very few people are capable of murder ; well that may or may not be the case - but it seems we have more and more people amongst us who are oblivious to the fact that someone might die because of their tendency toward violence .

It is precisely these people who must be given very lengthy sentences in order to deter others who behave the same .

On a lesser scale that's why the bloke who killed the family in his lorry has to be made an example of regardless of the fact that he'll probably never offend again . It's common sense that his case would more likely deter others if he receives a tough sentence than if he was released with something no more than the equivalent of a speeding fine .....

[Billy Castell]

A comparison in sentencing between Italy and Britain...

Link: Italy passes tough emergency laws for child rapists and murderers

I take my hat off to Silvio Berlusconi's government for the tough action they are trying to take to protect the rights of the public.

On the other hand.....

An absolutely vile double rapist who violently raped a pregnant woman at knifepoint in a London park has been jailed for just six years this week, despite the horrific life-long impact on the poor woman. She had told the rapist that she was pregnant and begged him to leave her alone after he pounced on her in a park.

As the woman said: "I could have lost my unborn child. This haunts me now and will continue to do so forever."

Even though the Judge, David Higgins, said that the vile offences of the rapist amounted to "some of the most serious criminal offences which can come before a court" and he said that the rapist's behaviour was "cowardly, cruel, depraved, despicable, disgusting and deeply anti-social," he still only jailed the disgusting scumbag for just six years.

What kind of message does that send out to the rest of the country? Violently rape a pregnant woman at knifepoint in a park and get just a few years in prison. Some of the soft sentences being handed out in this country now are a disgrace.

The public are not being protected and sickening depravity and violence are not being adequately punished. It's a very sad state of affairs, but I fear that the liberal loonies have well and truly taken over the asylum, so to speak.

Link: Depraved double rapist jailed for six years

I'd be interested to know if there are people on this website who actually believe that a six-year sentence is a proper and adequate punishment for such a disgusting crime?

If your pregnant wife/girlfriend was raped at knifepoint in a park would you be happy with a six-year sentence for the beast?

My own view is that our criminal justice system is now completely failing to protect people from violent crime.

Is this the same Silvio Berlosconi who passed legislation that meant he is immune from prosecution over a number of financial scandals and allegations? The same person who some say may have played a role in the murder of a judge who was looking into political corruption as part of the 'clean hands' campaign? And is this the same political leader that has formed governments with neo-Fascists and other such lovely characters? What a fine upstanding moral compass you have as your new pin-up.

I believe your own view is that the sky is falling, rivers are about to run red and no-one ever thinks of the children. Sorry, but not even The Daily (Hate) Mail srieks as loudly as you.

[Bazzanotsogreat]

Is this the same Silvio Berlosconi who passed legislation that meant he is immune from prosecution over a number of financial scandals and allegations? The same person who some say may have played a role in the murder of a judge who was looking into political corruption as part of the 'clean hands' campaign? And is this the same political leader that has formed governments with neo-Fascists and other such lovely characters? What a fine upstanding moral compass you have as your new pin-up.

I believe your own view is that the sky is falling, rivers are about to run red and no-one ever thinks of the children. Sorry, but not even The Daily (Hate) Mail srieks as loudly as you.

That’s a tad dramatic Billy. Being half Italian & still having many relatives in Italy I have a first hand knowledge of the current administartion. The current regime in Italy is corrupt yes; but fascists they are not . In fact many Italians would take great offence to your remarks, especially when many Italians who had to suffer Mussolini’s monstrous regime are still living. ( My Grandfather included)

Remember, it wasn’t so long ago that several of our own cabinet and even the then Prime Minister were formally questioned by Scotland Yard in regards to the cash for honours scandal. Then we have the vexatious request from our beloved Home Secretary to arrest and question the shadow HS - simply because he held information that might embarrass the government.

All governments are corrupt; some more so than others; The truest saying is this “All power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely”

[Billy Castell]

That’s a tad dramatic Billy. Being half Italian & still having many relatives in Italy I have a first hand knowledge of the current administartion. The current regime in Italy is corrupt yes; but fascists they are not . In fact many Italians would take great offence to your remarks, especially when many Italians who had to suffer Mussolini’s monstrous regime are still living. ( My Grandfather included)

Remember, it wasn’t so long ago that several of our own cabinet and even the then Prime Minister were formally questioned by Scotland Yard in regards to the cash for honours scandal. Then we have the vexatious request from our beloved Home Secretary to arrest and question the shadow HS - simply because he held information that might embarrass the government.

All governments are corrupt; some more so than others; The truest saying is this “All power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely”

It was a bit too much, but from what little I know about Italian politics, Berlosconi is a crook, and is generally very dodgy. He is an odd person to highlight as a moral guardian. That was the point I was trying to make.

That is not to say British politics is wonderful, I would never say that as I am not some idiot who thinks brown envelope behaviour is something 'shady foreigners' do. I never implied that in my last post. As for the Fascist point, has he ever formed a government with a far-right party that has the hots for Mussolini? I think he did, but I am willing to be corrected as my knowledge of Italian politics is very limited. Either way, Mussolini was a gurning idiot, who got upstaged by a syphilitic Austrian lunatic.

[thenodrog]

A comparison in sentencing between Italy and Britain...

Link: Italy passes tough emergency laws for child rapists and murderers

I take my hat off to Silvio Berlusconi's government for the tough action they are trying to take to protect the rights of the public.

On the other hand.....

An absolutely vile double rapist who violently raped a pregnant woman at knifepoint in a London park has been jailed for just six years this week, despite the horrific life-long impact on the poor woman. She had told the rapist that she was pregnant and begged him to leave her alone after he pounced on her in a park.

As the woman said: "I could have lost my unborn child. This haunts me now and will continue to do so forever."

Even though the Judge, David Higgins, said that the vile offences of the rapist amounted to "some of the most serious criminal offences which can come before a court" and he said that the rapist's behaviour was "cowardly, cruel, depraved, despicable, disgusting and deeply anti-social," he still only jailed the disgusting scumbag for just six years.

What kind of message does that send out to the rest of the country? Violently rape a pregnant woman at knifepoint in a park and get just a few years in prison. Some of the soft sentences being handed out in this country now are a disgrace.

The public are not being protected and sickening depravity and violence are not being adequately punished. It's a very sad state of affairs, but I fear that the liberal loonies have well and truly taken over the asylum, so to speak.

Link: Depraved double rapist jailed for six years

I'd be interested to know if there are people on this website who actually believe that a six-year sentence is a proper and adequate punishment for such a disgusting crime?

If your pregnant wife/girlfriend was raped at knifepoint in a park would you be happy with a six-year sentence for the beast?

My own view is that our criminal justice system is now completely failing to protect people from violent crime.

Yes but you have to take into account that all our gaols are full! So what else can we do?

[Stuart]

Yes but you have to take into account that all our gaols are full! So what else can we do?

I can thinks of a few things...

[Anti Euro Smiths Fan]

Labour peer found guilty of dangerous driving - but could be freed from jail in just six weeks

Lord Ahmed has been jailed after being involved in a fatal crash on the M1. He had admitted driving dangerously in his Jaguar when he hit another car on the motorway. 28-year-old Martyn Gombar was killed in the crash.

The court had heard how Lord Ahmed sent and received a series of five text messages while driving in the dark along a 17-mile stretch of the motorway.

The judge, Mr Justice Wilkie, said: "It is of the greatest importance that people realise what a serious offence dangerous driving of this type is. I have come to the conclusion that by reason of the prolonged, deliberate, repeated and highly dangerous driving for which you have pleaded guilty, only an immediate custodial sentence can be justified."

Nazir Ahmed was born in Pakistan and Tony Blair made him the UK's first Muslim life peer in 1998. After the July 7th 2005 London tube and bus bombings, Lord Ahmed said that the suicide bombers had an "identity crisis" and, that "unfortunately, our imams and mosques have not been able to communicate the true message of Islam in the language that these young people can understand."

Two years ago Lord Ahmed was criticised for inviting Mahmoud Abu Rideh, a Palestinian linked to fundraising for al-Qaeda, to Westminster to meet him.

I disagreed with that invitation by Ahmed, but I did agree with the Labour peer in 2007 when he said that Muslim women in the west should not wear the niqab, or full-face veil. Lord Ahmed said: "The veil is now a mark of separation, segregation and defiance against mainstream British culture."

Lord Ahmed will serve half of his twelve-week prison sentence in jail and half on licence. Members of Martyn Gombar's family said they were not happy with the sentence, which could mean that Ahmed will be freed in six weeks.

Considering that the judge said today: "It is of the greatest importance that people realise what a serious offence dangerous driving of this type is" - does being freed from jail after just six weeks following a fatal crash and what the judge called "prolonged, deliberate, repeated and highly dangerous driving" actually send out a tough enough message to other people?

My own view is that Lord Ahmed should have been jailed for longer.

Link: Lord Ahmed jailed for dangerous driving

[Anti-Dingle-Brigade]

You appear to have missed out the part where the judge said that the use of a phone had no direct effect on his crash, or was a cause. See, he stopped using his phone 3 miles before he was involved with the crash.

So less selective quoting and try and give the whole story AESF, the way you have chopped and manipulated the story makes it seem as though he was using his phone when he crashed. He wasn't.

Oh, and the guy who died had been drinking too. I'm not certain, but I'm pretty sure he'd crashed before this chap even arrived and whacked into him.

Nothing like selective quotation, eh Smithy?

[Anti Euro Smiths Fan]

I think the main point is what the judge called "prolonged, deliberate, repeated and highly dangerous driving."

The use of a mobile phone may have had no direct effect on the crash, but Lord Ahmed was clearly being irresponsible and wasn't paying attention to his driving for a prolonged period. Not something that anybody can condone.

Perhaps I should have made it clearer that the mobile phone texts did not directly cause the death of the other driver. However I was concentrating on Lord Ahmed's deliberate and prolonged dangerous driving and I provided a link to the story at the end of my post, so people could read what happened.

In the report that I read I didn't see anything about the guy who was killed having been allegedly drinking. So I wasn't aware of that.

[colin]

Don't let anything like reality get between AESF and a good Pakistani/Muslim/Labour rant.

[thenodrog]

You appear to have missed out the part where the judge said that the use of a phone had no direct effect on his crash, or was a cause. See, he stopped using his phone 3 miles before he was involved with the crash.

Ahh thats right mate..... So bloody judge must have been bloody racist innit!

[SouthAussieRover]

In the report that I read I didn't see anything about the guy who was killed having been allegedly drinking. So I wasn't aware of that.

Well Smithy in future you should take a little more time to check the facts. Unless you don't want facts to get in the way of a good story

For instance the Manchester Evening News provides this information:

"The court was told that subsequent tests showed father-of-two Mr Gombar had been drinking and crashed his car into the central reservation, spinning it round. As Lord Ahmed approached the Audi, it was facing the wrong way, straddling the two outermost lanes in total darkness.

The court heard another car clipped its wing mirror and a further vehicle had taken such drastic avoiding action that it also collided with the central reservation. But the judge said Lord Ahmed's text message conversation ended three kilometres (1.86 miles), or two minutes, before the collision with the Audi."

For the MEN report see http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new...ash_peer_jailed

[RovertheHill]

To our friends who live further afield - especially Australia - there's a lot of ill-feeling in Britain at the moment and a lot of disillusionment in general things and way of life - what's it like where you are? Is it the same - is there any optimism out there?

[dave birch]

RtH, I just watched the 7.30 report (current affairs on the ABC) Most economists interviewed (and they include O/Seas ones as well) reckon that Australia will at best, avoid a recession, or at worst have a very mild one. It's said that any turnaround will commence late 2009/early 2010.

The statistics coming from business are very mixed, some good, some bad. If things get worse, the Central Bank still has a couple of % to play with, the Governments 2nd fiscal stimulus has yet to be delivered ($900 approx to most taxpayers , upto six or seven thousand to families).

It was pointed out that our stimuli will amount to only 2% of GDP, which is streets better than most OECD countries. The downturn has had some casualties with unemployment on the increase, but it's still below 5%, but we are warned that it will get worse. If you are working in an industry like auto or clothing, then I'd be worried, but some like construction seems to be holding up well. Some resaurants will be feeling the pinch, but the Italian one that I had a late lunch in today was packed at 2.30pm.

Property prices have held up well with increases in some areas, and falls of upto 10% or so in others. There has been an increase in new home buyers in the market, which has helped confidence as well, so people are prepared to go heavily into debt (it does help when the government will chip in with upto $20000.00 for home buyers)

Probably the thing that helped the nation is the way the Banks are regulated. They are still lending, and, if, like me, you are prepared to go and ask, they'll make things happen. I got .7% knocked off one of my loans over and above any official reductions. I'm paying 5.09% at the moment and that is fully tax deductible.

So, generally, I'd say there's a bit of apprehension around, but many are not letting it worry them. We do have the advantage of it being summer.

At the moment, I'm not concerned, I'm leaving my super as it is. My other investments are going well. If things go belly up, I won't be alone in having my own personal financial crisis.

It's almost at the point where I'd go and buy a shedload of shares in our banks and other blue chips.

If you've got available cash, and are prpared to risk it, then this is the time that fortunes are made.

[jim mk2]

To our friends who live further afield - especially Australia - there's a lot of ill-feeling in Britain at the moment and a lot of disillusionment in general things and way of life - what's it like where you are? Is it the same - is there any optimism out there?

Speak for yourself.

For those in secure employment or in well funded pensions schemes and with cash in the bank this is a wonderful time to be buying assets at bargain prices. Some of the country's institutions have been badly managed but there is nothing new in that. Australia is a tiny resources-based economy and will suffer as much if not worse than everyone else.

The only disillusionment around here is with Rovers and the way the club has been managed. If Rovers somehow manage to escape relegation we'll all be feeling a whole lot better.