[Archived] Cricket - England V South Africa

[Rover down South]

So Freddie is back in tomorrow then. Looks like Sidebottom & Anderson are struggling for fitness. Wonder if they were all fit who would of made way for Flintoff, he was always going back into the side, but for whom?

As a Sussex lad, want Matt Prior back in instead of Ambrose, Prior is a far better batsman.

[RibbleValleyRover]

News in:

Flintoff replaces Collingwood and Darren Pattinson makes his debut in place of Sidebottom.

[Rover down South]

News in:

Flintoff replaces Collingwood and Darren Pattinson makes his debut in place of Sidebottom.

Shame about Collingwood, I'm a big fan of his. Suppose he was always going to be the one to make way of the top order, only other option would of been Strauss out with Vaughan opening with Cook followed by Bell, Pietersen, Collingwood, Ambrose & then Flintoff.

[Flopsy]

Oh dear christ - Ambrose at 6 and a bowler with 11 first class matches under his belt debuting.

And we're batting first at a dampish headingly pitch.

We're so (Please don't use that word again)ed

[AussieinUk]

Very happy to see Freddy back.. shocked a little by the start made from Eng.

It will be interesting to see Pattinson bowl at test level. He is regarded highly by the Aussies. IMO, he looks very promising from pura (now sheffield) cup and county champs form

[grizfoot]

Good to see Freddie back.

Another highly controversial day with Vaughan appearing to have caught Amla, the batsman accepted that it was a clean catch and walked. Was nearly off the pitch when the South Africian coach and captain told him to stay on the field. Ultimately the decision wa sput to the third umpire and the TV replays seemed to show different outcomes from different angles therefore the third umpire could not possibly call it out and Amla returned to the middle.

In my opinion Vaughan did catch the ball cleanly he for one was sure he did. Maybe this could be a turning point in the game who knows.

At least we've got a decent pitch up at Hedingley Carnegie (didn't use to be called this did it?) rather than the flat wicket at Lord's which offered nothing for the bowlers.

[nellybc]

Only vaughan will know for sure if his fingers were under the ball, gut instinct said they were, he claims the catch, batsmen on his way. Rubbish to go to the 3rd umpire 5 mins later when the coach and captain of the opposition come down to the boundary waving there arms about.

[AussieinUk]

England bowling well IMO. Pattinson looking alot more composed than yesterday, albeit a little more expensive than he should be. Hopefully England will bowl the Safa's out quitely cheaply and set this one up as a close game.

Personally, I think England have great strength in depth for the future. Nice variation & very good experience. ( - I think I have been in this country too long )

1st/2nd

Flintoff/Broad

Sidebottom/Jones

Anderson/Harmison

Hoggard/Pattinson

Panesar/Swann

You could add tremlett and Mahmood, but not for me.

[Plastic Head]

That first post in this thread is fast becoming post of the year

Who's laughing now.....all the way to the Betfair bank !!!

I don't know much about football but cricket is far more predictable.

SA are now 1.36 for a series win, I might even lay the 1.92 off.

Englands only way back is if the next two pitches are raging "bunsens".

[tony gale's mic]

Who's laughing now.....all the way to the Betfair bank !!!

I don't know much about football but cricket is far more predictable.

SA are now 1.36 for a series win, I might even lay the 1.92 off.

Englands only way back is if the next two pitches are raging "bunsens".

I stuck 50 on after seeing that first post mate, looks like we're the ones laughing now!

[Plastic Head]

Went to Headingley on Monday, at least I got a full days play.

After Anderson batted for 1 hour 45 mins, Pietersens innings was a disgrace. 15 mins to lunch and he starts trying to hit every ball for four.

He is South African after all.

Vaughan shouldn't be in the team now so for the next test I would go with

Horton

Cook ©

Bell

Pietersen

Shah

Prior

Flintoff

Broad

Anderson

Monty

Harmison

[Claytons Left Boot]

Vaughan shouldn't be in the team now so for the next test I would go with

Not into cricket at all but when I see that guy being interviewed I've just got to change channels. Head boy material with no backbone.

[DeadlyDirk]

It'll be interesting to see Saturdays selection.

Pretty obvious that Sidebottom if fully fit will come back in for Pattinson.

Other bowling changes perhaps though? Broad batted well but struggle to trouble the batsmen, possibly a recall for Harmison or Jones who have both been bowling very well as of late.

The wicket keeper position is still up for large debate, I think Prior deserves another chance, they could well leave it to the next series though and give Ambrose a couple more tests to see if he can improve. They still need to decide if they want a batsman that can keep wicket or a genuine wicket keeper that can bat a bit. If its a keeper they want then Read is the answer, if its batting then thats not easy to come by at test level, Prior has looked as good as anyone.

In terms of the batting its a tougher one, no doubt Vaughan is struggling but he captains the side so well, it has to be considered though that surely a player cannot be in a team of 11 purely for his captaining skills. It's easy to forget that at Lords the top order put on a pile of runs and the ones that didnt got a bad decision or was beaten early on by a good ball.

I don't see any great need to change the batting just yet.

If it was up to me my side for the 3rd test would look something like this.

Strauss

Cook

Vaughan

Pietersen

Bell

Flintoff

Prior

Anderson

Sidebottom

Harmison

Panesar

I'd like to get Broad in there somewhere and possibly even Collingwood who had a good knock the other day but its hard to see where to get them in without upsetting the balance. One solution would be to take out Vaughan but who has proved they can captain at this level? Not Flintoff, Pietersen still needs to focus on his own game and not give his wicket away let alone be reponsible for the team. So it leaves the likes of Cook or Strauss. Strauss himself was on the verge of being dropped about 6 months ago so whether or not he's the answer I'm not sure and Cook is still a very young lad and as far as I'm aware has now captaincy experience at first class level.

It's gotta be tough being a selector

[bellamy11]

Some good points there Dirk but look at that tail! I think, considering Freddie's batting form, Broad as an batting bowler is essential.

I read a very good argument for Broad being undroppable (at the time when people were discussing who Freddie would replace). If we're to take back the Ashes, it's Broad who is going to have to be the difference. He could turn into a genuine all-rounder, and his potential with the ball is massive. I think he needs all the test match experience he can get, even if he isn't one of the best 4 bowlers in the country at the moment.

[blue phil]

Not into cricket at all but when I see that guy being interviewed I've just got to change channels. Head boy material with no backbone.

He's plenty of backbone - his record as captain speaks for itself .

Mind you his form is not impressive of late - but that's nothing to do with his temperament or capabilities as captain .

[grizfoot]

Broad's in the line-up mainly to take wickets but it seems he's more of a batting all-rounder at the moment. I wouldn't drop him I'd stick with him for now especially since he's in good batting form.

I'd pick this team (in batting order):

Strauss

Cook

Vaughan ©

Pietersen

Bell

Flintoff

Broad

Ambrose

Sidebottom

Andresen

Panesar

I'd stick with Ambrose for now although he is seriously out of form England have changed keepers frequently in the past and it hasn't seemed to improve the situation, may do better at No.8 with Freddie moved upto 6 and Broad at 7. Overall that looks a really strong batting line-up.

No doubt sometime soon Harmison and S.Jones will surely be knocking on the door for a re-call and that may leave Andersen and Broad position in the team vunerable.

[Eddie]

Can't drop Anderson. He's been England's best bowler over the past year or so and has started to look decent with the bat. Sidebottom and Broad would be on the chopping block for me (in that order)

[DeadlyDirk]

Some good points there Dirk but look at that tail! I think, considering Freddie's batting form, Broad as an batting bowler is essential.

I read a very good argument for Broad being undroppable (at the time when people were discussing who Freddie would replace). If we're to take back the Ashes, it's Broad who is going to have to be the difference. He could turn into a genuine all-rounder, and his potential with the ball is massive. I think he needs all the test match experience he can get, even if he isn't one of the best 4 bowlers in the country at the moment.

Yeh I do agree with you that Broad is a big part of our future and could be a genuine all rounder, and taking him out the side only to put him back in every few months isn't going to help that. His batting is coming on excellentley I hope his bowling can pick up a bit.

I just wonder where the wickets are coming at the moment, we really are stuggling to get them out and I just feel we need another more direct pace bowler like Harmison or Jones and its hard to get them in anywhere else. Panesar is the spinner so he's in and then Anderson and Sidebottom have been brilliant over the last 12 months with the ball. Then there's Broad who has done well with the bat but been a bit hit or miss with the ball. I still believe in the old fashioned way that primarily batters are there to bat, wicket keepers are there to keep wicket and bowlers are there to bowl, if they can chip in elsewhere then brilliant but they need to do their first job first.

[DeadlyDirk]

Yeh I do agree with you that Broad is a big part of our future and could be a genuine all rounder, and taking him out the side only to put him back in every few months isn't going to help that. His batting is coming on excellentley I hope his bowling can pick up a bit.

I just wonder where the wickets are coming at the moment, we really are stuggling to get them out and I just feel we need another more direct pace bowler like Harmison or Jones and its hard to get them in anywhere else. Panesar is the spinner so he's in and then Anderson and Sidebottom have been brilliant over the last 12 months with the ball. Then there's Broad who has done well with the bat but been a bit hit or miss with the ball. I still believe in the old fashioned way that primarily batters are there to bat, wicket keepers are there to keep wicket and bowlers are there to bowl, if they can chip in elsewhere then brilliant but they need to do their first job first.

So Hamison and Collingwood have both come back into the squad, no place for Tremlett or Pattinson.

Collingwood's inclusion I guess will keep us guessing on the starting line up, they've already hinted Broad will be 'rested'

So the lineup for the must win 3rd test is going to look something like this.

Cook

Strauss

Vaughan

Pietersen

Bell

Flintoff

Ambrose

Sidebottom

Anderson

Broad/Harmison

Panesar

They didn't use their 4th bowler that much in the least test, if they want to strengthen the batting and bring Colly back in then perhaps if Sidebottom isn't quite fully fit or they decide to give Anderson or something a rest they could always go in with 4 front line bowlers and then have Colly bowl a few and possibly Pietersen. When were struggling to take 20 wickets though I can't really see them dropping a bowler, I'd expect them to lineup as above with Harmison coming in for Broad.

[Billy Castell]

We can all see that Vaughan should be dropped, but who should come in, and who will be the new captain? I can't see anyone bar Pietersen or Cook who is in a position to play every game, but then are they made of the right stuff to be captain? As for who'll replace Vaughan at number 3, some say Owais Shah, and others say Robert Key. I don't know who as I don't follow the county game closely, and don't know who is in form.

[AussieinUk]

As for who'll replace Vaughan at number 3, some say Owais Shah, and others say Robert Key.

You have to be joking on Mr Key? Good county player, but absolutley rubbish at test level from the tests I have watched him in, of course this is IMHO..

Shah on the other hand..

[broadsword]

Agree about Key, he's just a fat tonker.

[AussieinUk]

Agree about Key, he's just a fat tonker.

I actually thought you were going to 'rib' me on Key, seeing that you reside in the same county.

[broadsword]

Nah, have always followed Lancashire.

never been tempted to support.

[grizfoot]

Agree about Key, he's just a fat tonker.

I seem to recall him getting a double hundred in a England shirt. Was displaced when Mark Butcher came back and hasn't played since. He is fat yes and probably just a very good county player.