[Archived] Local Government Strike

[Paul Mellelieu]

You think the private sector hasn't been getting below inflation pay rises?

It's only at director level where they are getting inflation busting bonuses. Big pay rises have been off the cards for years now.

It's a shame really, I need more money to afford the increases in council tax (mine went up £100 last year).

Bucky,

Either you don't understand what I've written, or you choose not to. Not related to Yoda by any chance? Or the resident court jester t'drog?

[Wiggy]

Part of the (unwritten) deal in the public sector is that for comparable work our pay is less than the private sector, but that we do get other benefits. Right now we are too far behind the private sector.

Well I don't know where you get your statistics for your ' unwritten' deal but....

The monetary difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£498 per week in April 2007) and the private sector (£439 per week) has widened over the year to April 2007, following annual increases of 3.0 per cent and 2.9 per cent respectively.

Public/Private Sector Wages

It seems to me that New Labour has been feather bedding it's client state for the last decade. Now the government has no alternative but to turn the taps off, it has been borrowing billions to mollycoddle this sector, now the party's over.

The final straw for me came prior to the last election when Alan Johnson ( the former Royal Mail union rep ) was asked to sort out public sector pensions. Everyone realised that retiring at 60 with gold plated public pensions was not possible when the talk was of the state retirement age rising to 70. A threat from the unions and he almost completely backed down. So weak and irresponsible. It was pitiful. This was after New Lab had already created hundreds of thousands of new jobs for faceless bureaucrats, always increasing their client state.

Remember public pensions are not even accounted for in government debt. If they were, actuaries estimate the debt to be £ 1,000,000,000,000. I agree that we should pay nurses, firefighters, teachers etc. a decent wage but some of these other leeches don't realise what a great deal they have.

Cheeky B@ggers.

[BuckyRover]

Bucky,

Either you don't understand what I've written, or you choose not to. Not related to Yoda by any chance? Or the resident court jester t'drog?

Elaborate please....

I understood you perfectly.

You want more money at the expense of the state.

[Mr Creosote]

Hardly surprising, the reaction from some on here. The whining populace of this country love nothing more than sticking it to Public Sector workers who have the temerity not to work for nothing.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Well I don't know where you get your statistics for your ' unwritten' deal but....

The monetary difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£498 per week in April 2007) and the private sector (£439 per week) has widened over the year to April 2007, following annual increases of 3.0 per cent and 2.9 per cent respectively.

Public/Private Sector Wages

These statistics do not amount to a like for like comparison between local government workers and people doing similar jobs in the private sector. These do however demonstrate have private sector bosses screw their workforce whilst giving themselves huge pay increases. There are also some sectors where union organisation defends pay and conditions, which is why so many services are out-sourced to private companies.

It seems to me that New Labour has been feather bedding it's client state for the last decade. Now the government has no alternative but to turn the taps off, it has been borrowing billions to mollycoddle this sector, now the party's over.

Wrong: the gap between rich and poor has got worse under New Labour: it's the fat cats that have done the best.

The final straw for me came prior to the last election when Alan Johnson ( the former Royal Mail union rep ) was asked to sort out public sector pensions. Everyone realised that retiring at 60 with gold plated public pensions was not possible when the talk was of the state retirement age rising to 70. A threat from the unions and he almost completely backed down. So weak and irresponsible. It was pitiful. This was after New Lab had already created hundreds of thousands of new jobs for faceless bureaucrats, always increasing their client state.

The real scandal here is the private pension schemes promoted by Thatcher, screwing over millions of workers. Where are these hundreds of thousands of faceless bureaucrats?

What has actually happened (real world and all that) is that the UK pension system is amongst the least efficient in western Europe, and the Pensions Commission, headed up by Adair Turner set out a series of recommendations, including the extension of the working age to 68, more investment by government, the private sector, and individuals in their pensions. Some are currently in the Pensions Bill, some have been implemented. other haven't. The private sector isn't happy.

Remember public pensions are not even accounted for in government debt. If they were, actuaries estimate the debt to be £ 1,000,000,000,000. I agree that we should pay nurses, firefighters, teachers etc. a decent wage but some of these other leaches don't realise what a great deal they have.

Who are the leeches? The social workers, binmen, dinner ladies, mental health workers, benefit advisors, people who look after homeless people?

Cheeky B@ggers.

Hardly surprising, the reaction from some on here. The whining populace of this country love nothing more than sticking it to Public Sector workers who have the temerity not to work for nothing.

I think it's called small mindedness. Someone stands up for themselves and a volcano of misinformed red-hot right wing lava comes spewing out.

[BuckyRover]

Public sector workers, with chips on their shoulders?

Never!

They work harder than anybody, are highly mtoviated, and work for little or no pay!

As has been said previously, it's not the social workers or the firemen. It's green enforcement officers or noise abatement squads, or the smoking police. Far too many mindless jobs, who have now decided they want more money.

It will be the final nail in the Labour coffin

[Wiggy]

QUOTE (Wiggy @ Jul 16 2008, 12:00 )

Well I don't know where you get your statistics for your ' unwritten' deal but....

The monetary difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£498 per week in April 2007) and the private sector (£439 per week) has widened over the year to April 2007, following annual increases of 3.0 per cent and 2.9 per cent respectively.

Public/Private Sector Wages

These statistics do not amount to a like for like comparison between local government workers and people doing similar jobs in the private sector. These do however demonstrate have private sector bosses screw their workforce whilst giving themselves huge pay increases. There are also some sectors where union organisation defends pay and conditions, which is why so many services are out-sourced to private companies.

Err right. So, public sector work, on average, must require higher skill levels than private sector work because public sector work pays less than private sector work ( even though official statistics say it pays more)?

It seems to me that New Labour has been feather bedding it's client state for the last decade. Now the government has no alternative but to turn the taps off, it has been borrowing billions to mollycoddle this sector, now the party's over.

Wrong: the gap between rich and poor has got worse under New Labour: it's the fat cats that have done the best.

Well there must be plenty of fat cats in the private sector or the gap in pay is even greater than stated.

The final straw for me came prior to the last election when Alan Johnson ( the former Royal Mail union rep ) was asked to sort out public sector pensions. Everyone realised that retiring at 60 with gold plated public pensions was not possible when the talk was of the state retirement age rising to 70. A threat from the unions and he almost completely backed down. So weak and irresponsible. It was pitiful. This was after New Lab had already created hundreds of thousands of new jobs for faceless bureaucrats, always increasing their client state.

The real scandal here is the private pension schemes promoted by Thatcher, screwing over millions of workers. Where are these hundreds of thousands of faceless bureaucrats?

So, the scandal isn't Gordon Brown removing tax relief from dividends in private pensions whilst leaving government pensions alone? By doing this he contributed hugely to the woeful situation we are in now. Prior to this we had the best private sector pensions in Europe.

What has actually happened (real world and all that) is that the UK pension system is amongst the least efficient in western Europe, and the Pensions Commission, headed up by Adair Turner set out a series of recommendations, including the extension of the working age to 68, more investment by government, the private sector, and individuals in their pensions. Some are currently in the Pensions Bill, some have been implemented. other haven't. The private sector isn't happy.

So that's why your unions, in the real world, refuse, point blank, to raise the pension age above 60 for existing workers. Even though they expect everyone else to work until 68 to pay for them?

Remember public pensions are not even accounted for in government debt. If they were, actuaries estimate the debt to be £ 1,000,000,000,000. I agree that we should pay nurses, firefighters, teachers etc. a decent wage but some of these other leeches don't realise what a great deal they have.

Who are the leeches? The social workers, binmen, dinner ladies, mental health workers, benefit advisors, people who look after homeless people?

Cheeky B@ggers.

QUOTE (Mr Creosote @ Jul 16 2008, 12:29 )

Hardly surprising, the reaction from some on here. The whining populace of this country love nothing more than sticking it to Public Sector workers who have the temerity not to work for nothing.

Nothing? See the link at the beginning of this post.

I think it's called small mindedness. Someone stands up for themselves and a volcano of misinformed red-hot right wing lava comes spewing out.

I think the small mindedness comes from those Wolfy Smiths still residing in the 70's.

This post has been edited by Paul Mellelieu: Today, 14:33

[wilyrover]

I'm with the strikers, at least they're prepared to stand up for their terms and conditions, as well as decent wages. Pity they can't bring back the closed shop and force the scabs out. I don't see why closed shops can't be allowed, especially if the workers democratically vote them in.

[BuckyRover]

I'm with the strikers, at least they're prepared to stand up for their terms and conditions, as well as decent wages. Pity they can't bring back the closed shop and force the scabs out. I don't see why closed shops can't be allowed, especially if the workers democratically vote them in.

Has anybody ever signed an employment contract that guaranteed above inflation pay rises in the future?

I didn't think so.....

[scotchrover]

GOOD ON THEM :!:

SIMPLE AS THAT

Anybody against is a THATCHERITE AND THATCHERITES ARE IDIOTS :!:

[colin]

Pay public servants lots more money and they will only spend it on beer.

That is actually a very good reason for paying them more.

[Paul Mellelieu]

QUOTE (Wiggy @ Jul 16 2008, 12:00 )

Well I don't know where you get your statistics for your ' unwritten' deal but....

The monetary difference between the median level of full-time earnings in the public sector (£498 per week in April 2007) and the private sector (£439 per week) has widened over the year to April 2007, following annual increases of 3.0 per cent and 2.9 per cent respectively.

Public/Private Sector Wages

These statistics do not amount to a like for like comparison between local government workers and people doing similar jobs in the private sector. These do however demonstrate have private sector bosses screw their workforce whilst giving themselves huge pay increases. There are also some sectors where union organisation defends pay and conditions, which is why so many services are out-sourced to private companies.

Err right. So, public sector work, on average, must require higher skill levels than private sector work because public sector work pays less than private sector work ( even though official statistics say it pays more)?

You need to factor is the army of unskilled causualised (many young) workers. And remember I'm referring to local government wokers, noth better paid coppers, NHS staff and teachers.

It seems to me that New Labour has been feather bedding it's client state for the last decade. Now the government has no alternative but to turn the taps off, it has been borrowing billions to mollycoddle this sector, now the party's over.

Wrong: the gap between rich and poor has got worse under New Labour: it's the fat cats that have done the best.

Well there must be plenty of fat cats in the private sector or the gap in pay is even greater than stated.

The real scandal here is the private pension schemes promoted by Thatcher, screwing over millions of workers. Where are these hundreds of thousands of faceless bureaucrats?

So, the scandal isn't Gordon Brown removing tax relief from dividends in private pensions whilst leaving government pensions alone? By doing this he contributed hugely to the woeful situation we are in now. Prior to this we had the best private sector pensions in Europe.

Now it's getting funny. Best pensions in Europe! Don't tell Yoda. We have the most inefficient, complex pensions in the UK. In 2001, UK pensioners were the third poorest along out of the EU-15. The then pension system worked Ok for few of the golden generation and very well for the rich. To quote the Pensions Commission, we have, "among the least generous state system in the developed world." Brown's action in '98 will have only compounded what were long-term underlying weaknesses in the UK pension system. You have failed to mention that in the 90s, employers took 'contribution holidays' and raided pension schemes to pay for corporate restructuring.

What has actually happened (real world and all that) is that the UK pension system is amongst the least efficient in western Europe, and the Pensions Commission, headed up by Adair Turner set out a series of recommendations, including the extension of the working age to 68, more investment by government, the private sector, and individuals in their pensions. Some are currently in the Pensions Bill, some have been implemented. other haven't. The private sector isn't happy.

So that's why your unions, in the real world, refuse, point blank, to raise the pension age above 60 for existing workers. Even though they expect everyone else to work until 68 to pay for them?

[/color]I'm not sure what you mean here. Local government workers pay into their scheme on the basis on agreed benefits including to ability to claim at certain ages.

Remember public pensions are not even accounted for in government debt. If they were, actuaries estimate the debt to be £ 1,000,000,000,000. I agree that we should pay nurses, firefighters, teachers etc. a decent wage but some of these other leeches don't realise what a great deal they have.

Who are the leeches? The social workers, binmen, dinner ladies, mental health workers, benefit advisors, people who look after homeless people?

Cheeky B@ggers.

QUOTE (Mr Creosote @ Jul 16 2008, 12:29 )

Hardly surprising, the reaction from some on here. The whining populace of this country love nothing more than sticking it to Public Sector workers who have the temerity not to work for nothing.

Nothing? See the link at the beginning of this post.

I think it's called small mindedness. Someone stands up for themselves and a volcano of misinformed red-hot right wing lava comes spewing out.

I think the small mindedness comes from those Wolfy Smiths still residing in the 70's.

This post has been edited by Paul Mellelieu: Today, 14:33

[thenodrog]

GOOD ON THEM :!:

SIMPLE AS THAT

Anybody against is a THATCHERITE AND THATCHERITES ARE IDIOTS :!:

Thank you for your that depth and considered analysis scotchrover..... Mellelieu must be well suited that he has your contribution to fall back on.

Truth is that until I logged on just now I'd no idea anyone was on strike! Maybe that speaks volumes on the contribution made to society by your fellow 'workers'.

But 'Wolfy' you need to consider all these footballers that we are discussing. If they are good enough to get more money elsewhere they are off like a shot. You should try it yourself..... or am I right in my belief that you would not have the balls to leave your cosseted job for life and try your luck in the real world.

btw Am I also correct in assuming that when you started this thread the overwhelming reaction against your situation has suprised you somewhat?

Anyway chin up eh?

[stuwilky]

QUOTE (Ste B @ Jul 16 2008, 10:51 ) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've seen how they work first hand and if the unions were more pragmatic rather than insisting on wasting money, then there may actually have been more to go around.

Like....?

My parents work in the public sector too (for the employment service).

They strike more often than I get holidays in a year.

Id imagine that in that case your employers are in a serious breach of the regulations on paid leave.

You are in a dreamworld. Final salary pensions, more holidays, flexi-time, no need to work hard to gain promotion. Most people do not get these benefits (apologies if you do not).

So without knowing which of these are the case, you are happy to suggest he is in a dreamworld?

[yoda]

Bucky,

Either you don't understand what I've written, or you choose not to. Not related to Yoda by any chance? Or the resident court jester t'drog?

Are you still sore because I slapped you about on another thread, 3-0 I seem to remember.

I would quit this thread If I was you, you are getting a right tonking!

[Bazzanotsogreat]

I have refused to strike, infact the take-up on the strike in general on my council is probably only around 10-20%. Furthermore, most of my colleagues have stated that one of the main reasons why they haven’t strike is Unisons ineptness when negotiating the single status evaluations.

Who in their right minds truly believe that a 6% pay-rise is permissible in a time of mass economic slowdown. Im sorry Paul, your socialist tendency to agree to the strike action ‘no matter what’ is neither justifiable nor applicable in the current climate.

[Paul Mellelieu]

Are you still sore because I slapped you about on another thread, 3-0 I seem to remember.

I would quit this thread If I was you, you are getting a right tonking!

It was 3-0 in your imaginary world. I got bored of trying to have a conversation with you, a bit like Bucky.

As for the reaction, I was bored this morning and thought, give it a go; see what you get back and as expected it was the usual combination of ignorance and stupidity, and then posts other than our resident golfing champ, who seems only too keen to want to know more about my job, life and so on. At least he's not shouting "negroid" or threatening to come round to sleep with my wife this time. Let's just say I've decided, seven years too late to find the ignore button on this lovely bloke.

I have refused to strike, infact the take-up on the strike in general on my council is probably only around 10-20%. Furthermore, most of my colleagues have stated that one of the main reasons why they haven’t strike is Unisons ineptness when negotiating the single status evaluations.

Who in their right minds truly believe that a 6% pay-rise is permissible in a time of mass economic slowdown. Im sorry Paul, your socialist tendency to agree to the strike action ‘no matter what’ is neither justifiable nor applicable in the current climate.

I understand your point of view Bazza regarding single status, although I expect the Union line would be it could have been a lot worse. An I'm no sure about the two-day tactic: but once the vote was taken we had to come out, otherwise it makes the unions look weaker and easier for management to push through other measures.

One other thing; if we do win a better deal will you sending back the increases that other's have won by losing two days pay?

[blue phil]

Give up your final salary scheme pensions (funded by council tax payers) for the horrors of private-sector money purchase pensions and people might have more sympathy for you.

This could be the basis for a negotiated settlement for all public sector workers ; give up your public funded pensions in return for a reasonable pay settlement . Then go and sort out your own private pensions like the rest of us .......

I can assure you , Mr Mellelieu - if you study in depth the theft from the private pension funds undertaken by this detestable government (scores of billions of pounds ) you might think again about how much you are being taken for granted by the public and how hard done you are .

(Incidentally , if you reckon things are bad now , you'd better prepare for a hard time when the Tories get in . They're going to have to cut back on spending somewhere - the public sector will be high on their hit list . )

Good luck .

[Paul Mellelieu]

This could be the basis for a negotiated settlement for all public sector workers ; give up your public funded pensions in return for a reasonable pay settlement . Then go and sort out your own private pensions like the rest of us .......

I can assure you , Mr Mellelieu - if you study in depth the theft from the private pension funds undertaken by this detestable government (scores of billions of pounds ) you might think again about how much you are being taken for granted by the public and how hard done you are .

(Incidentally , if you reckon things are bad now , you'd better prepare for a hard time when the Tories get in . They're going to have to cut back on spending somewhere - the public sector will be high on their hit list . )

Good luck .

It's been going on in the civil service for some time; please keep up. Have a think about the 'theft' by the employers from the private funds, maybe yours, and the misselling of three million pensions under the private is best Tory years.

The Tories attack the public sector, my, you are on form today.

[yoda]

It was 3-0 in your imaginary world. I got bored of trying to have a conversation with you, a bit like Bucky.

As for the reaction, I was bored this morning and thought, give it a go; see what you get back and as expected it was the usual combination of ignorance and stupidity, and then posts other than our resident golfing champ, who seems only too keen to want to know more about my job, life and so on. At least he's not shouting "negroid" or threatening to come round to sleep with my wife this time. Let's just say I've decided, seven years too late to find the ignore button on this lovely bloke.

I understand your point of view Bazza regarding single status, although I expect the Union line would be it could have been a lot worse. An I'm no sure about the two-day tactic: but once the vote was taken we had to come out, otherwise it makes the unions look weaker and easier for management to push through other measures.

One other thing; if we do win a better deal will you sending back the increases that other's have won by losing two days pay?

You can't cope with alternative views,

It was 3-0 and you know it, you never came back with an argument to support your failed view

[Paul Mellelieu]

You can't cope with alternative views,

It was 3-0 and you know it, you never came back with an argument to support your failed view

Yoda,

If you must know I've been away from a computer for several days and I found I couldn't really get through to you. For what it's worth (and quite frankly i couldn't care two hoots what you think of me , my views, or anything else, on two issues I was right:

- usage of medicines

- access to elective medical health care

You threw in a line about you being right about the superiority of the French health care system using a link that I'd posted to support your argument, despite me not picking a fight on that one, and the link actually saying the French system was in crisis and finally it was the level of investment in the French system compared to the UK system that was important.

So yes you "slapped me about" Mr tough guy.

[stuwilky]

This could be the basis for a negotiated settlement for all public sector workers ; give up your public funded pensions in return for a reasonable pay settlement . Then go and sort out your own private pensions like the rest of us .......

Should employers not contribute to their staff's pensions?

Millions of private workers have non contrib pensions, most public sector workers have bought in pensions, (like mine for example).

[Paul Mellelieu]

Should employers not contribute to their staff's pensions?

Millions of private workers have non contrib pensions, most public sector workers have bought in pensions, (like mine for example).

I think Phil doesn't want anyone to have what he hasn't got.

[blue phil]

It's been going on in the civil service for some time; please keep up. Have a think about the 'theft' by the employers from the private funds, maybe yours, and the misselling of three million pensions under the private is best Tory years.

The Tories attack the public sector, my, you are on form today.

My point being that you and your ilk are making the same mistake as those idiots who went on strike during the winter of discontent . Guess what happened next ! !

I can assure you , Mellelieu (or whatever your name is this week ) I've forgotten more about trade unionism than you'll ever know . Every day you strike is a pot full more votes for Cameron .

As for the private pensions raid - it's gone to the goverment coffers , much of it going on to create jobs in the public sector . How ironic that they've been feeding the hand that now bites it .

You may as well go the whole hog and vote Cameron yourself

[Paul Mellelieu]

My point being that you and your ilk are making the same mistake as those idiots who went on strike during the winter of discontent . Guess what happened next ! !

I can assure you , Mellelieu (or whatever your name is this week ) I've forgotten more about trade unionism than you'll ever know . Every day you strike is a pot full more votes for Cameron .

As for the private pensions raid - it's gone to the goverment coffers , much of it going on to create jobs in the public sector . How ironic that they've been feeding the hand that now bites it .

You may as well go the whole hog and vote Cameron yourself

I am no friend of Brown and his record on pensions, as i've already said, and only made a terrible situation worse.

It was the Tories and their friends in the rip-off private sector insurance companies that has caused the problems for many who signed up to private pensions. Three bloody million missold. They also de-indexed the public pension, cut in half serps and supported poor value private provision.

As for my union record, my name or anything else, what's it to you?