[Archived] Local Government Strike

[blue phil]

I think Phil doesn't want anyone to have what he hasn't got.

But I do have a pension - been contributing for 20 odd years (and yes my employer does contribute) . However it isn't inflation linked and the rest of the country's taxpayers don't put in or give me guarantees . It just seems a bit much when the government raids private pension funds and squanders much of it in on those who aren't subject to the same insecurities faced in the private sector .

Let's face facts ; many jobs in the public sector serve no other purpose than to keep the unemployment figures down . That isn't the case in the private sector .

It was the Tories and their friends in the rip-off private sector insurance companies that has caused the problems for many who signed up to private pensions. Three bloody million missold. They also de-indexed the public pension, cut in half serps and supported poor value private provision.

So what ?

Does that excuse the chaos caused by Labour ?

You seem to think that I'm a Tory ; I can assure you I'm far from it .

The Tories buggered things up for the working man - Labour made it worse .

[stuwilky]

But I do have a pension - been contributing for 20 odd years (and yes my employer does contribute) . However it isn't inflation linked and the rest of the country's taxpayers don't put in or give me guarantees . It just seems a bit much when the government raids private pension funds and squanders much of it in on those who aren't subject to the same insecurities faced in the private sector .

Let's face facts ; many jobs in the public sector serve no other purpose than to keep the unemployment figures down . That isn't the case in the private sector .

I quite agree with the raiding part, it was outrageous. And then several PS pensions got raided as well, and completely shafted initially, and then I went on strike. And I still get a pension that is funded by my employer and myself. It is also interesting to note the surplus and deficit on branches of all public sector pensions. For many of the schemes in deficit it is due to the authorities taking payment holidays when the stock market was overperforming, thus pushing contributions up in recent years. Instead of maintaining healthy levels through the good times they hung back and reduced their contributions to less than 1% in some cases. It was a silly move as was pointed out at the time.

Incidentally, I also believe that some branches of the "Civil Service" are bloated and ineficient, but by no means all of them - and perhaps that generalisation does no favours, nor does the "public sector pensions" headlines - there are many different pension schemes for different categories of "public sector" workers. Some are non contributory.

Sadly the tabloid media brands all public sector pensions as one and the same - usually non contrib, final salary, index linked, 25%+ employer contributions, no work, overpaid etc etc etc.

[blue phil]

Sadly the tabloid media brands all public sector pensions as one and the same - usually non contrib, final salary, index linked, 25%+ employer contributions, no work, overpaid etc etc etc.

Sounds like the BBC top brass.......

[stuwilky]

Sounds like the BBC top brass.......

and the privatised utilities (although I missed golden handshakes and goodbyes!)

[Paul Mellelieu]

But I do have a pension - been contributing for 20 odd years (and yes my employer does contribute) . However it isn't inflation linked and the rest of the country's taxpayers don't put in or give me guarantees . It just seems a bit much when the government raids private pension funds and squanders much of it in on those who aren't subject to the same insecurities faced in the private sector .

Let's face facts ; many jobs in the public sector serve no other purpose than to keep the unemployment figures down . That isn't the case in the private sector .

So what ?

Does that excuse the chaos caused by Labour ?

You seem to think that I'm a Tory ; I can assure you I'm far from it .

The Tories buggered things up for the working man - Labour made it worse .

Who pays for private sector employers contributions to occupational pensions? Well me and other public (and private) sector workers through the paying for goods and services. Stu makes the point about the 1990s contribution holidays, which i also made earlier. I agree with your last statement. You have to ask yourself why our pension system is one of the worst around. You shouldn't be asking why aren't public sector workers exposed to the same risks on old-age poverty as those in the private sector, but rather, why can other countries provide for their old, and we can't. Let's not spread the misery, let's have good public pensions for all. Broadly speaking that's what the Pensions Commission called for.

[thenodrog]

As for the reaction, I was bored this morning and thought, give it a go; see what you get back and as expected it was the usual combination of ignorance and stupidity, and then posts other than our resident golfing champ, who seems only too keen to want to know more about my job, life and so on. At least he's not shouting "negroid" or threatening to come round to sleep with my wife this time. Let's just say I've decided, seven years too late to find the ignore button on this lovely bloke.

Blimey! Is your missus that nasty piece of work xxxx's bit on the side? He's a right ignorant bstard imo, I'm suprised that you've put up with it for so long.

As for 'negroid' that is simply an adjective derived from the noun negro? So whats your point... and be honest here.

[Flopsy]

I was a local council yesterday and they're all "professionals" Ie road safety, planning, transport strategy etc, and they think the whole strike is a joke, as Bazza said they've been shafted by single status, but Unison didnt give a toss because the very poorly paid got a raise. Of a floor of 70 people, one person had gone out, and that was because he was taking an extra long weekend.

And this two day strike means that when the government caves and gives them a raise, it'll be lost in the two days less pay they'll recieve this month because they've been on strike. Clever that.

And how is a 3% raise a paycut? No one has actualy explained this great bit of logic.

[jim mk2]

And how is a 3% raise a paycut? No one has actualy explained this great bit of logic.

........... because it's less than the official (3.8 per cent) rate of inflation and significantly less than the unofficial (18 per cent) rate of inflation.

[Flopsy]

but ITS NOT A PAY CUT you still have more money than you had before.

[jim mk2]

but ITS NOT A PAY CUT you still have more money than you had before.

No you don't, because your money (even with the pay rise) is worth less because of inflation . A proper pay rise has to be in excess of the rate of inflation.

[broadsword]

Yes, in "real" terms it's a pay cut.

Nominally it's actually a pay-rise, but you still have less money in your pocket after paying out on all your essentials than you did this time last year.

But then again, the RPI is an artificial measure because it only uses the "average basket2 of goods, and excludes mortgage repayments.

I didn't realise actual inflation was 18%; John Major was on telly last weekend saying he thought it was 9%, but I never did believe a word he said.

If you start awarding everyone above-inflation pay rises, then all you do is end up pushing inflation up further ("too much money chasing too few goods"), at some point someone has to say "no".

Mervyn King was in the press recently saying that we would all have to swallow it, because above-inflation pay-increases would just make the situation worse.

Because of a change in tax laws, my pay has gone south considerably, instead of striking for more pay (wouldn't get me very far), I've just told my employers if they don't get my pay packet back up to what it was, I'm walking. And not coming back.

I'm afraid it's the Tebbitite times we're living in, Comrade.

[Al]

Yes, in "real" terms it's a pay cut.

Nominally it's actually a pay-rise, but you still have less money in your pocket after paying out on all your essentials than you did this time last year.

But then again, the RPI is an artificial measure because it only uses the "average basket2 of goods, and excludes mortgage repayments.

I didn't realise actual inflation was 18%; John Major was on telly last weekend saying he thought it was 9%, but I never did believe a word he said.

If you start awarding everyone above-inflation pay rises, then all you do is end up pushing inflation up further ("too much money chasing too few goods"), at some point someone has to say "no".

Mervyn King was in the press recently saying that we would all have to swallow it, because above-inflation pay-increases would just make the situation worse.

Because of a change in tax laws, my pay has gone south considerably, instead of striking for more pay (wouldn't get me very far), I've just told my employers if they don't get my pay packet back up to what it was, I'm walking. And not coming back.

I'm afraid it's the Tebbitite times we're living in, Comrade.

I was under the impression that the Retail Price Index (RPI) included mortgage rates. The rate quoted by the Government is the official inflation rate and is lower than the RPI.

[thenodrog]

........... because it's less than the official (3.8 per cent) rate of inflation and significantly less than the unofficial (18 per cent) rate of inflation.

18% Jim? Time to send for Maggie if thats the case!

BUT moving on .....

1. why don't all the public sector workers stop whingeing and take their skills and work ethic to the private sector? I'm sure that they will be much better rewarded in the land of milk and honey that they imagine it is in the real world.

2. Then we could re-invent the system and simply replace em with half as many Poles and other assorted eastern europeans on the min wage. Whenever I've been to E Europe it's plain to see that they can obviously run their own country OK and they do have a genuinely good work ethic.

There job sorted to everybodies satisfaction. How difficult was that?

Next.....

[yoda]

18% Jim? Time to send for Maggie if thats the case!

BUT moving on .....

1. why don't all the public sector workers stop whingeing and take their skills and work ethic to the private sector? I'm sure that they will be much better rewarded in the land of milk and honey that they imagine it is in the real world.

2. Then we could re-invent the system and simply replace em with half as many Poles and other assorted eastern europeans on the min wage. Whenever I've been to E Europe it's plain to see that they can obviously run their own country OK and they do have a genuinely good work ethic.

There job sorted to everybodies satisfaction. How difficult was that?

Next.....

I have just been employing 2 Polish workers for a few weeks, excellent craftsmen and efficient, done a great job for me.

Saved a bundle

[colin]

I read this in a paper today, it probably sums upmy take on the situation

Around 600,000 council workers are being forced to take strike action because of a pay offer of just 2.45%. UCU members support their action because they understand that this derisory offer represents another real terms pay cut for the people who empty our bins, clean our schools, look after our parks and care for our kids. This is the 10th consecutive below-inflation pay offer (my italics - Colin). Is it any surprise that public sector workers are angry with a government that can find the funds to bail out the banks but not pay its key workers? The public sector is fed up with being made a scapegoat for the problems caused by others. Some ministers blame our demands for fair pay for causing inflation, however, below-inflation pay offers over the past decade tell a very different story. If the government wants the support of public-sector workers, it needs to explain why it deserves that support. At present, public-sector workers are not feeling supported by the government they helped to elect.

Sally Hunt

General secretary, UCU

Quite a few poster on here seem to think that public sector workers sit around on our arses all do doing not a lot, and looking forward to secured salaries and hefty pensions. There has been a couple of suggestions that we should try it in the "real world."

Just a couple of points.

(1) Please will you let me know what exactly is unreal or surreal about my world?

(2) If you think this public sector environment is so cushy, what the hell are you doing not trying to get in it?

Got to go, these pencils won't sharpen themselves........................

[blue phil]

Quite a few poster on here seem to think that public sector workers sit around on our arses all do doing not a lot, and looking forward to secured salaries and hefty pensions. There has been a couple of suggestions that we should try it in the "real world."

I think a lot of people differentiate between those public sector workers who do a useful job - such as doctors , nurses , binmen ................and those whose existence wouldn't be noticed if they were all laid off tomorrow . Quite a few of the latter knocking around I'd guess . Check out the Guardian jobs section

[thenodrog]

Around 600,000 council workers are being forced to take strike action because of a pay offer of just 2.45%. UCU members support their action because they understand that this derisory offer represents another real terms pay cut for the people who empty our bins, clean our schools, look after our parks and care for our kids. This is the 10th consecutive below-inflation pay offer (my italics - Colin). Is it any surprise that public sector workers are angry with a government that can find the funds to bail out the banks but not pay its key workers?

Sally Hunt

General secretary, UCU

Key workers? Can you define the word key in this context?

[wilyrover]

The Scab

"After God had finished the rattlesnake, the toad, and the vampire, he had some awful substance left with which he made a scab."

"A scab is a two-legged animal with a corkscrew soul, a water brain, a combination backbone of jelly and glue. Where others have hearts, he carries a tumor of rotten principles."

"When a scab comes down the street, men turn their backs and angels weep in heaven, and the devil shuts the gates of hell to keep him out."

"No man (or woman) has a right to scab so long as there is a pool of water to drown his carcass in, or a rope long enough to hang his body with. Judas was a gentleman compared with a scab. For betraying his master, he had character enough to hang himself." A scab has not.

"Esau sold his birthright for a mess of pottage. Judas sold his Savior for thirty pieces of silver. Benedict Arnold sold his country for a promise of a commision in the british army." The scab sells his birthright, country, his wife, his children and his fellowmen for an unfulfilled promise from his employer.

Esau was a traitor to himself; Judas was a traitor to his God; Benedict Arnold was a traitor to his country; a scab is a traitor to his God, his country, his family and his class."

Author --- Jack London (1876-1916)

Good to see the tide is turning in favour of organised labour. All we need now is the closed shop and our right to picket firms who try to break our strikes.

[American]

I love that a group of workers (home office) that are already about a month behind in their work (5 day service standard, currently at about 35) decided they needed to go on strike.

If I were that far behind on my deliverables, I'd be sacked.

Question for the unionists - is the raise you are asking one that everyone would get, or is it like in most companies where the average raise is X% and some get more and some get less based on performance?

[blue phil]

Good to see the tide is turning in favour of organised labour. All we need now is the closed shop and our right to picket firms who try to break our strikes.

The tide is certainly turning somewhat in my experience - back toward the day when stupid employers use difficult economic circumstances to put the squeeze on workers .

In the end it'll prove to be counter productive ; unhappy workers prove to be unproductive workers .

Sometimes I don't what is worse . Employers thinking in 1970's terms or employees who also wish to go back to those dark days .

Closed shops ? Secondary picketing ? Good grief - it's like opening the door and inviting another Thatcher in .

How about mutually beneficial co-operation instead ? Backed up with quality legislation that curbs excesses on all sides .

[thenodrog]

The tide is certainly turning somewhat in my experience - back toward the day when stupid employers use difficult economic circumstances to put the squeeze on workers .

In the end it'll prove to be counter productive ; unhappy workers prove to be unproductive workers .

Sometimes I don't what is worse . Employers thinking in 1970's terms or employees who also wish to go back to those dark days .

Closed shops ? Secondary picketing ? Good grief - it's like opening the door and inviting another Thatcher in .

How about mutually beneficial co-operation instead ? Backed up with quality legislation that curbs excesses on all sides .

How about it's a Chinese problem now Phil. Sadly.

[stuwilky]

I love that a group of workers (home office) that are already about a month behind in their work (5 day service standard, currently at about 35) decided they needed to go on strike.

Was the home office on strike last week?

Question for the unionists - is the raise you are asking one that everyone would get, or is it like in most companies where the average raise is X% and some get more and some get less based on performance?

Set pay rise, UNISON usually attempt to negotiate more for the lowest earners.

[American]

Home office had a "work action" on Friday.

From a union perspective, I understand the full amount for everyone, but it just makes one more reason for people to doubt the quality of workers - they know they get raises no matter how badly they do their job, unlike most private sector companies.

[stuwilky]

Home office had a "work action" on Friday.

From a union perspective, I understand the full amount for everyone, but it just makes one more reason for people to doubt the quality of workers - they know they get raises no matter how badly they do their job, unlike most private sector companies.

Unless the employers actually take action against the staff who arent performing.....

[American]

Not the quickest response ever, but if the government ever took action against underperforming employees, the general public wouldn't be so against public sector employees.