[Archived] Blackburn Sign Chilean Superstar Carlos Villanueva

[Exiled_Rover]

This is what I think. Blackburn is old school English football. A lot of running and pressing and muscling opposition out. Not pretty, but get's the job done and has worked well for Blackburn. Villanueva doesn't work in this environment

Question for the veterans in the forum. Has any classic play maker made it big in any Premiership club, excluding the big 4?

I see Modric who is similar to Villanueva in many ways...let's compare:

Luka Modrić (Age 23)-----Carlos Villlanueva (Age 22)

-----1.74m---------------------------1.73 m--------------

----At.Mid-----------------------------At.Mid--------------

--Croatian MVP 2007-----------Chilean MVP 2007-----

----Apps: 18(2)------------------Apps: 7(4)------------- (I'm including League Cup)

-----Goals: 2----------------------Goals: 1---------------

...the main difference is playtime. Neither has necessarily taken the Premiership by storm...

The problem with Villenueva is that he's a shocking athlete - tiny and painfully slow - and seems to think he has an extra few seconds on the ball than the Premier League allows. He has talent, but unless he quickens his speed of thought he's never going to make it in the Prem. I'd compare him to Tugay, but even Tugay is a better athlete than Villenueva, and his reading of the game is on another planet to the Chilean.

He's certainly not worth £5m and as you've stated doesn't suit the style of the Premier League. Perhaps he'll be more effective in a slower professional league.

[Parsonblue]

The problem with Villenueva is that he's a shocking athlete - tiny and painfully slow - and seems to think he has an extra few seconds on the ball than the Premier League allows. He has talent, but unless he quickens his speed of thought he's never going to make it in the Prem. I'd compare him to Tugay, but even Tugay is a better athlete than Villenueva, and his reading of the game is on another planet to the Chilean.

He's certainly not worth £5m and as you've stated doesn't suit the style of the Premier League. Perhaps he'll be more effective in a slower professional league.

Totally agree with this assessment. Carlos just isn't big enough or fast enough - in terms of thought as well as natural speed - for the Premiership. Tugay's ability to read the game enables him to make decisions with regard to distribution in an instant. He is also far stronger than Carlos and has the ability to retain possession under pressure. At 38 he is far fitter and stronger than Carlos.

I've seen all the games that Carlos has played in - including reserve games - and he just hasn't impressed me apart from the match against Grimsby - an outfit struggling in the bottom division. His lack of pace is his biggest problem and I really don't see him improving in that area. I also think that he would have difficulty adapting to a 4-4-2 system as he appears to need a free role behind a striker. £5 million for a player who can only play in one position is out of the question for a club like the Rovers.

[joey_big_nose]

Question for the veterans in the forum. Has any classic play maker made it big in any Premiership club, excluding the big 4?

Well it depends what you mean by "classic". If you mean players who are very different from an "English style" of player (ie. big and fast) then you could make a list like: Arteta, Tugay, Okacha, Geovanni, Elano, Di Canio. THere have been a few but not many.

Why is Tugay a success while Carlos is not? Both are small, lack physicality and are relatively slow. Part of it is that Tugay has much more experience before he came to Rovers - he played for the Turkish champions and Rangers, and was a fixture in a very decent national side, so the management knew what they were getting. Also Tugay adapted his game so that he sees - by anyones standards - an enormous amount of the ball with less pressure on himself through dropping deeper. His talent is such that even from such a massively withdrawn position he imposes himself.

But you do suspect that it comes down to the fact that Tugay is a world class player who could perform on any stage (it amazes me he has never turned out for a major CL club) whilst Carlos maybe is not that. He has a great left foot and a clever brain, but his technique and vision cannot compete with any of those players on that list I made at the top of this post.Maybe he will one day, but I do doubt it.

If you are small you can succeed providing you have an enormous amount of talent to compensate.

[tony gale's mic]

I still get the feeling Carlos wasn't given enough of a chance - maybe he didn't impress in training - but earlier on in the season when things weren't so serious we could've tried him playing behind RSC, I feel that would've been an ideal position. Instead we got him on the wings etc...which just wasn't suited to him. Still, now it's a little hard to throw him in given our predicament...

[chileandude]

Question for the veterans in the forum. Has any classic play maker made it big in any Premiership club, excluding the big 4?

Well it depends what you mean by "classic". If you mean players who are very different from an "English style" of player (ie. big and fast) then you could make a list like: Arteta, Tugay, Okacha, Geovanni, Elano, Di Canio. THere have been a few but not many.

Why is Tugay a success while Carlos is not? Both are small, lack physicality and are relatively slow. Part of it is that Tugay has much more experience before he came to Rovers - he played for the Turkish champions and Rangers, and was a fixture in a very decent national side, so the management knew what they were getting. Also Tugay adapted his game so that he sees - by anyones standards - an enormous amount of the ball with less pressure on himself through dropping deeper. His talent is such that even from such a massively withdrawn position he imposes himself.

But you do suspect that it comes down to the fact that Tugay is a world class player who could perform on any stage (it amazes me he has never turned out for a major CL club) whilst Carlos maybe is not that. He has a great left foot and a clever brain, but his technique and vision cannot compete with any of those players on that list I made at the top of this post.Maybe he will one day, but I do doubt it.

If you are small you can succeed providing you have an enormous amount of talent to compensate.

Thanks. That is a very short list indeed. It pretty much sums up what I was thinking anyway.

I don't know why but I still have a gut feeling Carlos will play a part in the upcoming generation of Chilean players...maybe it's just not his time yet.

One last question. How old where those players when they started to show up? Maybe the playmaker position is one that reaches it's peak at an older age...when the player has developed a better understanding of his surroundings and tactical disposition of teammates...

[Amo]

I don't think he's been given a fair crack of the whip. He's a young lad with lots of potential, but he needs time to settle. I still don't see why he isn't even worth a subs place?? There's no harm throwing him on when we're chasing the game.

I'll be disappointed to see him leave without a proper chance here, and wish him all the best.

[den]

I'm sure Den would have given up on Henry after his first few appearances, as well.

Well American, you can have your usual dig, but Ince had pretty much given up trying to find a position for him and Allardyce immediately saw there was nowhere near £5m worth of player here. So, carry on with the asides, but the fact is Carlos isn't cut out for the cut and thrust of Prem league and some people pointed that out fairly early on.

Of course you could have accepted that, but it isn't your style to do that - is it?

[Majiball]

I think you are missing something Majiball. £4m in the english transfer market will buy you very little, IMO Villaneuva has shown signs that he can do it but hasn't been given the time to adapt to the english game. Granted we can go and look elsewhere, but having him on loan til the end of the season means we are in a strong position, as i don't think anyone else will buy him in the mean time.

No your right 4M doesn't buy us much.

I don't disagree he should be given till the end of the year. Now that Dunns out again, we have no real attacking midfield threat. There will be times when Sam wants a 5 man midfield Villa can play the support role. He has had 5 months or so with the players they must have some sort of understanding.

With the right training as I've said all along he could be better, quicker, stronger, all through sports science. His height or lack of it is an advantage if used in the right way. Scholes the boy everyone said was too slow and short to be a premiership player (I'm not comparing him to scholes) would have been lost to the game if people had taken the attitude that height is a requirement.

Strength, speed, cognitive response can all be improved provided Quality coaching is in place. I'm sorry but I saw enough warm-ups to realise that if that was what Knox, Capt Pug-wash et al where doing in training then this was never going to happen, archaic is not an old enough description of what I have witnessed. The trouble with this learning process is you are looking to un-learn habits, this takes a long time at least 6-9 months especially when dealing with muscle memory.

At the end of the day our change of manager and our situation has influenced this decision how could it not. But Villa will prove a success elsewhere.

[den]

With the right training as I've said all along he could be better, quicker, stronger, all through sports science.

Strength, speed, cognitive response can all be improved provided Quality coaching is in place.

I'm in no doubt about that Majiball. The thing is though, that all players should be, or will be improved with good coaching/training. So even though a little more might be got from Carlos, he will still be behind everyone else in the physical side of things. That's not going to change much, if at all. It's not as though he isn't a long way off what's needed for the English game, is it?

[The Prof.]

Think his physique is the problem. Dumpy is how I'd describe him - looks pumped up compared to the early video's and I don't think thats helped his pace much. He also needs more time on the ball that you'd expect from a South American who are usually good technically. Can't help thinking the previous regime didn't help him but his age is against him too for modern clubs to work on these aspects. Modern clubs expect pace and technical ability at 10 or younger. To have a chance as an improver you're looking at Roque as an example - was it 19 he came over to Europe with a huge physique, pace and technical ability - and then the Germans started to work on him!

I'm in no doubt about that Majiball. The thing is though, that all players should be, or will be improved with good coaching/training. So even though a little more might be got from Carlos, he will still be behind everyone else in the physical side of things. That's not going to change much, if at all. It's not as though he isn't a long way off what's needed for the English game, is it?

Can you name any 20+ year olds this would apply to in the Prem? They want the finished article in the reserves now!

[American]

Well American, you can have your usual dig, but Ince had pretty much given up trying to find a position for him and Allardyce immediately saw there was nowhere near £5m worth of player here. So, carry on with the asides, but the fact is Carlos isn't cut out for the cut and thrust of Prem league and some people pointed that out fairly early on.

Of course you could have accepted that, but it isn't your style to do that - is it?

You should become a scout for the club then, Den, because it takes more than just a few matches played in different positions to adjust to any league. But apparently, you can judge a player from his first match and always be right. I'm surprised you haven't made millions selling your expertise.

When you (and you do) say that every player is crap, you're going to be right on occasion. I just think that not enough time has been given to definitively prove one way or another. It is not fact, it is opinion. Again, he did well in the first half against Boro and showed that given the right circumstances, he could do a job. Unfortunately, we don't have the time or circumstances to risk giving him an opportunity, and, I agree, not at that price, considering our budget. I do think that if Sam is eventually going to go to 4-5-1, he could play a role, but it doesn't look like he is going to, as he likes our striker options.

[den]

You should become a scout for the club then, Den, because it takes more than just a few matches played in different positions to adjust to any league. But apparently, you can judge a player from his first match and always be right. I'm surprised you haven't made millions selling your expertise.

When you (and you do) say that every player is crap, you're going to be right on occasion.

A bit OTT American. I just think you can't cope with people having different opinions than yourself.

Tell you what - I don't know which players you are talking about when you say "When you (and you do) say that every player is crap", but name me one that's been wrong?

[Bobby G]

Id consider using him in the FA Cup. I mean we dont have much if any creative options in our squad. But I cant see which position he would take up under Sam.

[Majiball]

I'm in no doubt about that Majiball. The thing is though, that all players should be, or will be improved with good coaching/training. So even though a little more might be got from Carlos, he will still be behind everyone else in the physical side of things. That's not going to change much, if at all. It's not as though he isn't a long way off what's needed for the English game, is it?

OK I'll expand a bit more. He's short so will have a small stride lenght, this is good for acceleration very good. He needs to overcome his bad habits with running. No-one teachs you to walk you figure it out for yourself and as such your unlikely to get it perfect it will be flawed.

So by breaking his habit in running which will take months and learning a new stride pattern, again will take months. Improvements would have been seen by now had this happened from the time he arrived. Muscles have memory and you need to re-write these memories to see change in the technique, its a long process.

His top speed will never be high he does not have a big stride nor does he have a high stride frequency like Wright-Phillips. Physhically yes off course you can make him stronger but it must be done in the right way balance between strenght and explosive strenght, I doubt the previous regime would have understood this. But, no you couldn't make him into the hulk.

If you could improve his acceleration and change the way we pass the ball to him I think he could be effective. Villa seems to play quite a bit on the turn and he has a wicked shot from out side the box. Trouble is we play a lot of ball to feet at Rovers, play it to him into space a few yards in front of him or to the side and perhaps with increased acceleration he would have a bit more time on the ball.

But your right he could not play in a four man midfield, he would need two central midfielders behind him. He lacks aggression he's no terrier like say Scholes who makes up for his lack of physhical presence by snapping at your heels constantly. Changing that would be impressive mind you.

I also wonder if he's regressed? Towards the end our first team looked a shambles, shadows of their former-selves. So how far would Villa have fallen? He was also the focal point in his previous team he would have been the man they looked for first, role change, Cultural change, language barrier, aclimatisation and all being overseen by Ince N co.

All I'd like to see with him is that he gets till the end of the year we've already paid for him. Lets see if under Sam's Scientific approach which I assume ties in with the latest findings and see how he gets on? There will be times when we play with a five man midfield, shutting games off in the last ten or so he could go in the hole. He has a goal threat we don't have enough players with that in midfield and it would seem Dunn is exactly that done.

You should become a scout for the club then, Den, because it takes more than just a few matches played in different positions to adjust to any league. But apparently, you can judge a player from his first match and always be right. I'm surprised you haven't made millions selling your expertise.

When you (and you do) say that every player is crap, you're going to be right on occasion. I just think that not enough time has been given to definitively prove one way or another. It is not fact, it is opinion. Again, he did well in the first half against Boro and showed that given the right circumstances, he could do a job. Unfortunately, we don't have the time or circumstances to risk giving him an opportunity, and, I agree, not at that price, considering our budget. I do think that if Sam is eventually going to go to 4-5-1, he could play a role, but it doesn't look like he is going to, as he likes our striker options.

OK I've had this debate on Villa with Den before. You need to look at it differently and also realise that football is all about differing opinions, its what makes the game great.

The attacks on people's opinions on this board are getting out of hand

I would not part with 4M for Villa based on what I have seen so far. I would agree with Den at this moment in time, however I think he has not had the right environment nor guidence for him to adapt to our game.

I also notice that Sam has pretty much said I don't rate him either and he hasn't even played him, so where's the berating for him.

You'll notice when Den posts comments on players he backs it up just as he has with Villa IE physhically lacking. Its why I bother to respond to him, I know I won't get a childish flippant comment in return, I'll get a reasoned response.

Most of the players we have signed in recent years have been stocking fillers, we sign one first teamer every year and then some extra's to pad out the squad. If I was to be honest the only players who have floated my boat over the last few years are:

Savage

Benni

Bellamy

At the time of signing. They are the only real established signings I can remember. The rest I considered sub-standard/doubted for one reason or another.

[American]

You'll also notice that Den has labeled him a failure and called it a "fact" that he isn't cut out for the Premiership. If he posted it as an opinion, not as a "see, I told you so, my superior intellect won out again" I wouldn't be so snippy about it.

FACT is that no one knows what the future holds for Carlos, but, as stated before, we don't have the luxury of experimenting with him in our squad to see where/if he would best fit in.

[joey_big_nose]

Thanks. That is a very short list indeed. It pretty much sums up what I was thinking anyway.

I don't know why but I still have a gut feeling Carlos will play a part in the upcoming generation of Chilean players...maybe it's just not his time yet.

One last question. How old where those players when they started to show up? Maybe the playmaker position is one that reaches it's peak at an older age...when the player has developed a better understanding of his surroundings and tactical disposition of teammates...

Well all of them were quite experieced. Youngest is probably Arteta who ended up at Everton via Rangers when he was about 24 I think.

It is also worth noting that all of the players on the list also have the entire team built around them. By example - for Tugay to work well Rovers need to deploy a very hard working midfield to protect him and provide the ball to him (I am sure the Emerton and Savage signings, and the Dunn sale by Souness, were influenced by the idea Tugay needs people to do the leg work for him, and as he is so brilliant you might as well get some athletes in to just give him the ball. His waning star has caused us serious problems as we have few other creative options). Everton developed a 451 similarly populated by grafters to let Arteta roam and be protected. Bolton's 451 afforded Okacha an advanced creative position behind the striker, again surrounded by workaholics.

So I guess the point is that if you want to change the entire way your team works to accomodate a player, taking all of your other ceative players out of the eleven to do so and going through laborious tactical workouts on the training pitch, then you also want to be certain that your lynchpin is the genuine article. Otherwise you are going to be thrashed, or at least not score, whoever you play. We don't know about Carlos and we do not have the luxery of finding out due to the postion we are in. But it is hard to see exactly how he can be as good as the great players on that list.

One last thing - it is also a fair point that the English are now starting to produce a couple of these "classic" players too. Well one anyway in the shape of Joe Cole. But also the likes of Carrick and Barry are not kick and run types, who prefer to find the clever pass. Steven Gerrard combines as much creativity and imagination as the top South American players with the old school English physical style. The top flight in England today is light years away in playing style to that of the eighties, with the quality even seen at the weaker teams quite exceptional (Boro for example have Tuncay, Alves, Mido and Downing... and they are pretty rubbish). The problem being, for the likes of Carlos, is that as the talent has increased so has the athleticsm, to an almost ludicrous degree. The amount of ground a player like Heskey or Emerton covers is stunning. If you can't keep up you are out.

[rover6]

Villaneuva should be on the bench, if fit. Allardyce is throwing away a potential gem, imho.

[LeChuck]

Villaneuva should be on the bench, if fit. Allardyce is throwing away a potential gem, imho.

Based on what? 60 seconds of YouTube footage? There' a YouTube video that makes Pedersen look like a world beater.

[Amo]

Come on, Sam, at least put him on the bench. We're desperately short of creative players, as the Man.City game showed. McCarthy and Roberts had to scrape out a lot of by themselves.

[CrazyIvan]

The problem Big Sam will have with Carlos is where does he fit in? Where can he be played to bring benefit to the team and not introduce weaknesses that can't be off-set by someone else? He IS a luxury player and one we can't afford right now. Given time he may well be one of those players who 'clicks' into place but I don't think this is the time and the place for him just yet. If we hold on to him between now and the end of the season we may well see him in action once we reach a 'safe' point but I can't help thinking this just isn't the right time for Carlos and Rovers.

[joey_big_nose]

Come on, Sam, at least put him on the bench. We're desperately short of creative players, as the Man.City game showed. McCarthy and Roberts had to scrape out a lot of by themselves.

Where would you play him? He isn't going to retain the ball up front like McCarthy, Jason, and Cruz can. He cannot keep the ball ticking over like Tugay or Dunn, and he is massively defensively weaker than Emerton, Pedersen and Andrews. His game naturally means that the whole side will lose it's organsiation and shape, which would be lethal for us at the moment.

I want him to do well for us but I just cannot see where he fits into a 442. And to start mucking about with 451 or 4231 or 433 when we seem to have achieved a nice balance would be foolhardy. He needs to play behind the striker, and it is impossible to see how he could displace any of our three main forwards at present.

You could argue that he could take Derbyshire's place but then it would seem like swapping one largely useless player for another.

[Amo]

Where would you play him? He isn't going to retain the ball up front like McCarthy, Jason, and Cruz can. He cannot keep the ball ticking over like Tugay or Dunn, and he is massively defensively weaker than Emerton, Pedersen and Andrews. His game naturally means that the whole side will lose it's organsiation and shape, which would be lethal for us at the moment.

He could be an effective sub during home games when we need something special.

I think he could play in midfield if he had the right partner. Someone like Emerton in the middle would make up for his lack of mobility and allow Villanueva to get his foot on the ball and make things happen.

The guy is not useless, he just hasn't been given a sustained run of games due to our predicament.

[Hughesy]

We could miss out on this one if we are not careful. He needs to be given a chance to show his worth and as someone suggested the cup could be a good start for him - saying that has he even been on the bench under Sam?

[modes98]

Based on what?

5 league starts + 3 sub appearances and then 2 league cup starts + 1 sub appearance.

That's a decent amount of football to judge if the guy is rubbish or decent. Whilst he is a little lightweight in appearance, the guy has something to offer and considering he has come from the pontins south american league, he has stepped up to the pace quite well. Against Villa for one he had a great game as the midfielder spreading the ball out to the others.

[92er]

Another factor not to sign him at the moment could well be down to the contract: Radio Lancs today, in saying the club are not going to sign him this season, said the purchase fee was $8 mil, so with the rate of exchange worsening all the time, it would make the deal even more expensive.