[Archived] Blackburn Sign Chilean Superstar Carlos Villanueva

[Amo]

He was considered a has-been when he left France on a free transfer, despite PSG paying £10m for his services.

[Eddie]

Um, no he wasn't. He fell out of favour at PSG, more because of his attitude than his performances and PSG wanted to get their money back, which they couldn't. He signed for Bolton just after having a decent world cup.

[Bobby G]

Carlos wont make it in England, at least wont be at the top here. Could be a player for a promoted side. He tries hard, and he has skill, but something is missing, and I make it to be pace/size.

[Amo]

Um, no he wasn't. He fell out of favour at PSG, more because of his attitude than his performances and PSG wanted to get their money back, which they couldn't. He signed for Bolton just after having a decent world cup.

The following season he [Okocha] was signed by Paris Saint-Germain for a then record fee. However, his performances in the French capital failed to live up to his price tag and, with many declaring him a spent force, Okocha joined Bolton Wanderers, perennial strugglers in the English top flight. The doubters were quickly made to eat their words though, with Okocha working wonders at Bolton alongside fellow ‘veteran’, France’s Youri Djorkaeff. Okocha is as indispensable to his club as he is to Nigeria, with whom he won the African Cup of Nations in 1994 and Olympic gold in 1996.

[Fife Rover]

Carlos wont make it in England, at least wont be at the top here. Could be a player for a promoted side. He tries hard, and he has skill, but something is missing, and I make it to be pace/size.

Let's see now......Bryan Douglas 5' 7", around 9st 7lbs; never considered as a pacy player.

Tom Finney 5' 8", 9st 10lbs, reasonably pacy, but never a flyer.

Stan Mathews 5'10", around 10st 4lbs or so, fairly pacy, but not by today's standards.

Wilf Mannion 5'5", around 10st, no pace never needed any; he was one of the finest inside forwards of all time.

I could go on and on, but what's the use? Today's football is a completley different game where skill has ben all but abandoned in favour of pace and passing in every direction in order to keep posession, and is hardly reliant at all on the ball playing skills of old.

To me having watched football since WW2 ended I can see a massive change in the game but which has happened gradually over a period of 60 years or so, and as I see it now making a comparison between the football of the 40's and 50's it is almost as though the game has evolved from highly skillfull and entertaining football with lots of goals and guaranteed entertainment into something more related to a cross between Rugby League and ice hockey, and proper football with the aim of scoring more goals than you concede is no longer the objective. The number one objective now is not to lose, and to win if you can but certainly don't lose. And things like deliberately making life difficult for the officials is now seen as all part of the game and perfectly acceptable.

[Eddie]

Topman I was living in Paris, had friends playing for PSG, had friends who are season ticket holders and since this started have spoken to them again about the feeling, he didn't live up to the price tag, but that didn't put him in the has-been bracket quite yet. Don't try and quote FIFA.com when talking about a team I know very well and don't try and escape from the fact that your original comment was "signed from obscurity".

Pace isn't a requirement for success in this league, but if you aren't very fast you need to be able to hold your own physically and you need sufficient skill, Villanueva is showing signs that he may fit that bill. Zola wasn't quick. Bergkamp wasn't quick. Now that isn't to say he will be as good as them, but thinking a player can't make it just because he isn't fast is a mistake.

[Amo]

Topman I was living in Paris, had friends playing for PSG, had friends who are season ticket holders and since this started have spoken to them again about the feeling, he didn't live up to the price tag, but that didn't put him in the has-been bracket quite yet. Don't try and quote FIFA.com when talking about a team I know very well and don't try and escape from the fact that your original comment was "signed from obscurity".

Obscurity:

a. The quality or condition of being imperfectly known or difficult to understand.

He would certainly be an "unknown quantity" after being released on a free after a mega-bucks move to France.

[Eddie]

Obscurity doesn't mean "unknown quantity", it literally means unknown.

Beyond your use of language though the point is that Okocha was a well known player of proven quality. Whether or not he was going to work in England was not known and many doubted that he was as good as he once was, but anyone who had been watching football around Europe for a few years, or even just international football for that matter, would have known that he was talented.

[Amo]

You said there were question marks over Okocha's attitude. That would certainly make him an unknown quantity.

unknown quantity - a factor in a given situation whose bearing and importance is not apparent; "I don't know what the new man will do; he's still an unknown quantity"

obscurity: The quality or condition of being unknown.

[rover6]

The whole Okocha argument is based on a incorrect premise.

The fact that Allardyce signed and played Okocha does NOT prove Allardyce's readiness to play skilful football, or even skilful players.

At Bolton Okocha spent a lot of his time putting in long throws, set-pieces and trying to find Henrik Pedersen/Kevin Davies' head in the penalty box. Sure, on Match of the Day, they ooh-ed and aaaah-ed about the odd Okocha trick but his role in the Bolton team was not to prompt entertaining or creative football. It was to use his skills to put quality balls into the box, at the earliest opportunity.

Nicholas Anelka, whilst Bolton, admitted that, for all the "foreign skilful stars" embedded, they were playing "kick and rush." After all, what else is the tactic of hitting the big man and then picking up the second ball, if not kick and rush?

[Amo]

The whole Okocha argument is based on a incorrect premise.

My argument is that Villanueva could fill that same role.

[Eddie]

You said there were question marks over Okocha's attitude. That would certainly make him an unknown quantity.

unknown quantity - a factor in a given situation whose bearing and importance is not apparent; "I don't know what the new man will do; he's still an unknown quantity"

obscurity: The quality or condition of being unknown.

Do you actually speak English? Obscurity and having doubts about how someone will fit into a playing system aren't the same thing at all.

Agreed Rover6. Point is he also had more skillful players who were suited to what he was trying to do. Anelka works in that system because of his pace and power, someone like McCarthy doesn't.

[rover6]

I would like to see more of Carlos in the team but he can't do the Okocha role, imo.

Okocha was physically strong. If I am not mistaken, he did not play as a second forward but as a central midfielder and he could throw the ball long (set Allardyce's heart racing every time). Those two things clearly distinguish Okocha and Villaneuva.

Ultimately, I do agree that a slow player needs a certain level of strength to make it in the Premier League. I see a player like West Brom's Robert Koren or James Morrison and I see skilful, creative players but wanting any real pace or strength to make a real impact in matches. That said, those guys are trying to play in midfield. Villaneuva is a second forward and that could be the one position that he could excel in.

[Amo]

I have a perfect grasp of the English language, thank you very much.

If something is 'not apparent' then it is 'obscure'. The fact you said Okocha left PSG with question marks over his attitude fall into the category of an 'unknown quantity.'

We can argue over semantics, all you want, but the definitions back me up.

[daveoftherovers]

The whole Okocha argument is based on a incorrect premise.

The fact that Allardyce signed and played Okocha does NOT prove Allardyce's readiness to play skilful football, or even skilful players.

At Bolton Okocha spent a lot of his time putting in long throws, set-pieces and trying to find Henrik Pedersen/Kevin Davies' head in the penalty box. Sure, on Match of the Day, they ooh-ed and aaaah-ed about the odd Okocha trick but his role in the Bolton team was not to prompt entertaining or creative football. It was to use his skills to put quality balls into the box, at the earliest opportunity.

Nicholas Anelka, whilst Bolton, admitted that, for all the "foreign skilful stars" embedded, they were playing "kick and rush." After all, what else is the tactic of hitting the big man and then picking up the second ball, if not kick and rush?

I actually thought that Bolton had both, they had people like JJ, djorkaef, joofy, fat michael jackson and Gardiner and they also had the fat lads when they needed them. Even Nolan could play a bit, I think it was just that he looked liked he wanted to play a bit too much out of work perhaps....?

The blend is why they were successful, they were never JUST hoofers, unfair press, but is that so rare??? Ask any club outside the top 4, they ALL suffer it... They didn't like it because it worked...

[Eddie]

I have a perfect grasp of the English language, thank you very much.

If something is 'not apparent' then it is 'obscure'. The fact you said Okocha left PSG with question marks over his attitude fall into the category of an 'unknown quantity.'

We can argue over semantics, all you want, but the definitions back me up.

No, they don't. See an unknown quantity means that you aren't clear on how much of an impact a certain attribute will have on a particular situation; whereas obscurity means that you are actually unaware of what you are dealing with. Obscurity can lead to there being an unknown quantity, but the two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand.

Okocha wasn't signed from obscurity because he was signed from the first team of a relatively large European side, had just played in a World Cup and had a large amount of European and International experience and exposure. Unwanted perhaps. Obscurity certainly not.

On the other hand, you could argue that Samba was signed "from obscurity", seeing as he was pretty much totally unknown to the footballing world and was playing for a reserve side.

[Amo]

Um no, you're just taking the words and putting them in your own context.

Since Sam was signing someone with question marks over him, it was unclear (i.e. obscure) whether he could revive his career in England.

[Eddie]

Does this look right to you:

Okocha signed for Bolton in 2002, but because of question marks over form and attitude it was obscure whether or not he would be a success.

[Amo]

It makes sense, yes.

[den]

Anyway, getting back to Carlos.

I think he would be best advised to find another club. He's never going to hold down a regular first team spot at Ewood because there isn't a position available for him. 4-4-2 is the way everyone plays nowadays and Carlos simply will never be suited to that.

[Beta Ray Bill]

Anyway, getting back to Carlos.

I think he would be best advised to find another club. He's never going to hold down a regular first team spot at Ewood because there isn't a position available for him. 4-4-2 is the way everyone plays nowadays and Carlos simply will never be suited to that.

Man Utd, Liverpool and a dozen other teams rarely play 4-4-2...

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

The thing about Carlos is we don't play with a system that suits his skills profile. It's a bit like the Derbyshire / Gallagher situation, 10-30 years ago teams played with a big man- little man up front. Usually a tall, strong in the air target man and a nippy goal poacher playing off him ( Toshack - Keegan, Sutton- Gallagher etc ) even recently England had some success with Owen- Heskey. However most of the lesser Prem teams play with 1 up front and a gaggle of midfielders in support ,some attacking , some not. Unless you're exceptional if you're just a poacher your role has vanished.

With Carlos his position is being more and more filled by big strong athletic types who can get forward quickly to support the lone striker, the little ball playing striker seems to have vanished from the scene. He's not quick enough for the wing ( having said that he's as 'quick' as Pedersen ) and not big enough for the midfield.

In his defence every time I've seen him play he's always tried to make things happen and given our poor season I'm surprised he's not had more game time. I've got a sneaky feeling he'll prove us wrong one day, unfortunately probably with another club.

[den]

Man Utd, Liverpool and a dozen other teams rarely play 4-4-2...

Yeah, you're right. I don't know why I said that really.

Stand by my comments about Carlos though - the best advice he could be given would be to find another club or league, where his abilities would be more suited. We have no strikers or real quality in our midfield at the moment and Carlos still can't hold down a first team place. So where would that leave him next season when hopefully those weaknesses have been adressed?

[OscarRaven]

Only couter to that is the fact he is improving. He was much stronger on the ball at city.

I do not however think we can sign him as the priorties elsewhere mean that there are simply not enough funds.

[American]

It makes sense, yes.

Wow, keep digging, you're making Gordon look yielding.