[Archived] The Ince Four Year Plan?

[Veevs]

Well spent the afternoon working through things.. mentioned this on the Nicko thread but thought I would start something seperate here so not to go off topic on that thread.

We now have a pretty good idea of the sort of players ince is looking at.. well at least the majority of them.

Given who has left.. who has arrived would you agree with Ince, as well as building on last season, going down the route of a planned four year build to our team?

Allot was made of the Ince plan during interviews when he first arrived.. but not seen a huge ammount mentioned since.. but if you look at who we are going for they all seem to have one major thing in common.. the long term.

Annan, Sable, Simpson, oldham lad, carlos, Robinson (yes young for a keeper).. in fact most targets are young lads..

Also the likes of Robbie who warnock reckoned used to look after the youngsters would be ideal for helping them through their build to top quality, and Ince working with him would of noted that.

My opinion is divided.. experience is great.. but a young manager and a young team is that the way to go.. hmm ok I will throw my hat in the its the way to go bunch.. after all remember where the great teams came from ManU for theirs sins under Fergie built up slowly with a quality young side and even those they bought in the early days where young (Ince for example).

If anything I reckon Ince is probably the only one of the ManU crew to try what Fergie has done.. start young and build a team.. Keane, Robbo, Bruce even Hughs all have bought experience first..

[DingleBaiter]

It's all very well talking like this, I DO agree Ince is trying to look at the bigger picture, however there is no such thing as long term planning in football, especially under the current economic climate & Premiership, with the stakes so high commercially. For instance, I'm sure when he took over at Macc, no matter how ambitious he was, I doubt he envisaged being in the Prem so soon!

Look at Jack Walker's plan, he had the vision to have a long-term plan, we actually won the Premiership a year ahead of schedule but then we committed the boxer's mistake of thinking the winning the title, rather than keeping it, was the achievement. Check out Fergie's mob, they're always more driven when they've won something to win something else, not sit back and bask.

Back to the long term plan, Rovers though arguably are the best club to be at for a long-sighted manager, as we balance the expectations with being one of the best-run clubs off-field, having the best chairman, against achievements. As JW indicated regularly, we don't churn our managers and at last we've some players other clubs covet, and not much dead-wood.

We all knew we needed to recruit a few players, and ship some 'dead wood' out, but on the whole Hughes laid excellent foundations that Ince can step into and it could run itself for a short while. We need to exercise some long-sightedness also, for two reasons - firstly, IMO there's prejudice against Ince for some reason (not the obvious one) with a lot of fans, unrealistically - following Hughes would always be an extremely hard act to follow FOR ANYONE. Secondly, he's a lot to learn, faced even more than what he could reasonably have had to face when he took the job (Friedel, Steele for a start), and it will certainly take some time for the dust to settle and impose his quality. Don't forget Hughes had a shaky start too, and the football he served up was pretty limited in the first season he was here IMO, but it achieved it's aim.

All that said, after the second half yesterday, a lot of fans - myself included - may have one or two more questions that will need answering than we had prior to it. Although Ince has handled the off-field business well IMO, the pitch affairs are of more concern to fans. Then again, what do we know? We're all fickle anyway!

Finally, to answer your question - I can't see any reason at all, at this present moment, why Ince won't still be manager in four years time. However, that doesn't mean he won't be, football has a way of changing day to day - ask Hughes if he's as enthused at City as he was when he left, I doubt he is.

I'm confident that one of these days Mr Hughes will do the football equivalent at Man City of what us guys have all done, wake up, think everything's fine and dandy,life is great, then look over and see some leaning jowler in bed next to him and think "oh no, how on earth did I get here???", and then bite his own arm off to get away........

[neekoy]

Arsenal have had the same youth policy but are finding it very difficult to hold the youth coming through.

They are obviously building for somethig big but if players like Hleb, Flamini and the like don't stay then the youth policy isn't going to work.

I really don't see Cesc staying after this season for example.

Now take into consideration a team the size of Arsenal who are struggling to keep the top talent how are we going to fair.

We will be looking at solid quality youngsters but am never going to secure young versions of Kaka or Ronaldo.

That said, is it really worth the while bringing youngsters through for them to be sold off with out us actually being able to improve as a club or going for the shorter term fix of having experience and recycling teh squad every three to four years.

[PAFELL]

Arsenal have had the same youth policy but are finding it very difficult to hold the youth coming through.

They are obviously building for somethig big but if players like Hleb, Flamini and the like don't stay then the youth policy isn't going to work.

I really don't see Cesc staying after this season for example.

Now take into consideration a team the size of Arsenal who are struggling to keep the top talent how are we going to fair.

We will be looking at solid quality youngsters but am never going to secure young versions of Kaka or Ronaldo.

That said, is it really worth the while bringing youngsters through for them to be sold off with out us actually being able to improve as a club or going for the shorter term fix of having experience and recycling teh squad every three to four years.

A young player has possible got more hunger than an experienced player - yet a young player also needs experience around them in order to help in the encouragement of the younger player. But Rovers in my view are also a club that has a manager that has the experince - some managers have hardly played the game - especially at the top level. Paul Robinson is still young for a goalkeeper, but has had a lot of experience within the international set up - so has Fowler (in my view he would be good for the younger players off the field and not as a player).

Ince has said he wants to play entertaining football - he wants to excite the fans - hence the type of players he has been looking at (Villianeveue if he plays as good as his utube clips)

But lets be honest Rovers could have the best players who would always be wanted by other clubs. The only way of preventing players wanting to leave Rovers for pastures new is success on the field. If Rovers got into the champions league - it would bring success to the club as well as money. For Rovers to do that they must have a longterm view of things. Sadly the modern player today wants instant success and are not very patient. Bentley is a prime example of that - he is not willing to wait. But so do supporters want instant success, people not willing to be patient, creats a different pressure for a club or a manager. It is finding that right balance that is difficult for any club.

[philipl]

All four year plans in any walk of life turn out to be illusions. In fact, if you deliver precisely to a 4 year plan the question has to be asked "what did you miss as you stuck to your plan?" In football even more so.

However, the Rovers ownership is obliged by its very nature to look to the big picture long term even to the extent of planning itself out when it sees a window of opportunity that is GOOD FOR THE CLUB.

Therefore, no Rovers football manager will be allowed to operate without having some longer term vision even if it isn't graced with a term like "Four Year Plan".

I can only see this as a positive for Rovers especially as the four year plans for the owners of Man City, Man U and Liverpool read: "stay out of jail", "defy the odds and find £250m from somewhere whilst not paying £80m a year in interest in full", and "try to talk to each other so we can borrow another £500m from somewhere."

[hawkiiz]

it is absolutely essential to plan AT LEAST four years ahead. its the very minimum, although the goals should be set by the board, not the manager. personally i am happy with ince, but i am concerned that he will be off as soon as we have some success. in a way its a lose/lose situation for us because he can either to badly, and get the sack, or do great and jump ship. either way we have to get a new man within 3 or 4 year, if im not very very wrong. if i "knew" he would stay for say 8-10 years i would feel a lot better.

[Parsonblue]

Long term planning is essential at a club like the Rovers. However, you cannot simply promise jam tomorrow - we have to be competitive this season and the next while waiting for long term plans to germinate. The problem that Ince faces is that if this season goes badly wrong, and early indications have not been great, he might not be here for the long term. If the club are in the bottom three by Christmas he could well be out of the club by the New Year.

The other problem is how to keep hold of your better players while you are building. Hughes was able to keep the club competitive in terms of challenging for Europe. Hence the likes of Bellamy, McCarthy and Santa Cruz could be persuaded to come to Blackburn. If we are stuck in the bottom half of the table it becomes more difficult to bring in the established players that youngsters need around them.

Another problem that successful younger players bring is the quality that Ince is looking for - someone who is hungry for success. As we found with David Bentley, that hunger means that they 'outgrow' the Rovers and begin to look for bigger clubs with greater media exposure.

It is a very difficult balancing act and we have been fortunate that Souness, in his early years at the club, and Hughes had mastered it so well. Only time will tell if Ince can make it a successful hat-trick of managers that John Williams has brought to the club.

[Sparky Marky]

it is absolutely essential to plan AT LEAST four years ahead. its the very minimum, although the goals should be set by the board, not the manager. personally i am happy with ince, but i am concerned that he will be off as soon as we have some success. in a way its a lose/lose situation for us because he can either to badly, and get the sack, or do great and jump ship. either way we have to get a new man within 3 or 4 year, if im not very very wrong. if i "knew" he would stay for say 8-10 years i would feel a lot better.

How many managers stay around in the Prem for 8-10 years? Hardly any....Listen, I'm happy with the 3-4 year turnaround of managers, as at the moment it's working pretty well. I believe we've got to get realistic and admit that we are a club that offers managers a shop window, just like our players. In the end we benefit as we finished 7th last season. As long as we're in this league with the possibility of europe and the odd cup run, then I'm happy.

[Majiball]

Planning for the future of any club, is a must from every angle. It should not be effected by the manager the goals don't move on the pitch and they don't move anywhere else.

The only part that changes is the method employed to attain those goals. Every manager in the world has different ideas and experiences, combined with ability, you will never get the same mix twice.

Goals are simple, don't make them complicated. With someone like JW in charge they will not waver, he is a shrewd man and will budget based on the worse case scenario first. Hughes always said the first target was 40 points, it will not have changed, its just how quickly we get them. That is also the first aim for Ince, once we get them we look at the next step, and so on. So the aim is simple stay in the league, first and foremost.

Financially for Rovers again, we don't spend what we don't have we stay in the black (yes we have debts but we pay them back in installments, our debts are decreasing not increasing). As long as JW is here it will not change, we will remain in a strong financial position. Just look at the other clubs around us, what happens when it dries up, when there benefactors get bored or fed up and leave?

Some people have said why bother with youth, well OK our academy has not done too well recently and on a personal level I feel that it needs a overhaul. But again the aim is simple produce players for the first team of premiership standard. Every player we produce that is capable of making our first team saves millions, and if they excel and are sold on eg dunn and duff then they make millions, which in turn can be re-invested. With youth though just has Wenger has done, and fergie before him (treble team) you get an added bonus.

Image if you will a team that includes 4-5 players who have been brought up together, played together prior to the first team for years, in the style of the first team (I realize this requires continuity of manager). They will have an understanding on the pitch, they know the clubs way of playing does not change regardless of what team you play in and so can come straight in. I saw a top U18's team last year who had their best season for over 50 years play arsenal youth, they where destroyed 7-1, what I saw was phenomenal it should have been more, the losing teams players where gob smacked it really hit home the difference in class. Image then what that team could be like in there prime (27-30) they will have played together most of there life's, telepathy would finally be proved to exist. This is Wengers dream, his vision it will happen. We could do something similar albeit on a smaller scale but it is possible, we just need to invest in the department and develop it. Don't forget our new head of scouting was Liverpool's academy scout before, he will have contacts and quality knowledge in this area, we should take advantage of this!

Planning for the future in short should be the aim of every club its a realistic one too. No Manager should change the goals because they are the same each year, its only us the fans, myself included who raise the bar.

[hawkiiz]

How many managers stay around in the Prem for 8-10 years? Hardly any....Listen, I'm happy with the 3-4 year turnaround of managers, as at the moment it's working pretty well. I believe we've got to get realistic and admit that we are a club that offers managers a shop window, just like our players. In the end we benefit as we finished 7th last season. As long as we're in this league with the possibility of europe and the odd cup run, then I'm happy.

almost all successfull managers stay for more than 4 years.

SAF and wenger are out or our league, but Sam Allardyce is not. he was with bolton for 8 years, and did extremely well

[T4E]

I can only see this as a positive for Rovers

Noooooooooooo...........

Really?!

You do surprise me.

[philipl]

Noooooooooooo...........

Really?!

You do surprise me.

Do you want my autograph?

[T4E]

Thats the spirit.